Hello,
I have a complicated system of 2 Amps plus DSP unit and want to "downsize", and btw. change over to new speakers (yet to be defined - I am thinking of 4 x 15" passive subs plus 2 good affordable and light-weight 2 or 3 way passives).
In order to get best possible sound quality, is it possible to circumvent ANY conversion to analog between the servers of Spotify and the Amp's DSP by going Dante over Network cable from PC to amp. I don't need any mixer / mike etc. Can speak to the crowd via megaphone. Are there any pitfalls to watch for?
The system would consist of PC, network cable, 1 u amp and 4 or 6 speakers ( plus cellphone to get internet access of course). the whole system (Laptop, amp and cellphone charger would run on 1 x 230VAC / 16A distributor that can be bought for about EUR 3.49.
I 'd carry 2 or 4 15"-subs to the party depending on power requirements. (16 Ohms in bridge mode on 2 channels or 8 Ohms in bridge-mode. It is important to bridge the sub channels or phase-invert one of the sub amp channels if they are only half bridges - compensating the inversion by reversing the speaker wires of course - in order to go the "powersoft digi-mod way" of "balanced supply mode").
I am thinking of something like T604. This thing is quite expensive. Are there any similar lower-cost alternatives? Total system cost excluding laptop should be <=6K EUR. Maybe 7K if I am REALLY satisfied. (10K if I am lucky at the lottery)
I have a complicated system of 2 Amps plus DSP unit and want to "downsize", and btw. change over to new speakers (yet to be defined - I am thinking of 4 x 15" passive subs plus 2 good affordable and light-weight 2 or 3 way passives).
In order to get best possible sound quality, is it possible to circumvent ANY conversion to analog between the servers of Spotify and the Amp's DSP by going Dante over Network cable from PC to amp. I don't need any mixer / mike etc. Can speak to the crowd via megaphone. Are there any pitfalls to watch for?
The system would consist of PC, network cable, 1 u amp and 4 or 6 speakers ( plus cellphone to get internet access of course). the whole system (Laptop, amp and cellphone charger would run on 1 x 230VAC / 16A distributor that can be bought for about EUR 3.49.
I 'd carry 2 or 4 15"-subs to the party depending on power requirements. (16 Ohms in bridge mode on 2 channels or 8 Ohms in bridge-mode. It is important to bridge the sub channels or phase-invert one of the sub amp channels if they are only half bridges - compensating the inversion by reversing the speaker wires of course - in order to go the "powersoft digi-mod way" of "balanced supply mode").
I am thinking of something like T604. This thing is quite expensive. Are there any similar lower-cost alternatives? Total system cost excluding laptop should be <=6K EUR. Maybe 7K if I am REALLY satisfied. (10K if I am lucky at the lottery)
FWIW, I'd just use the AES digital inputs. I'm pretty sure you can get a USB soundcard with that output and if not, IIRC it's just an SPDIF feed with a balancing transformer. Shouldn't be too hard to DIY.
The T604 is an excellent bit of kit. If you're thinking about bridging the last two channels and wiring the speakers in series, you might as well use the channels individually. Electrically, it's exactly the same.
Better yet, since the output is 2x NL4 sockets, I'd run:
Ch1 - Sub L
Ch2 - Main L
Ch3 - Sub R
Ch4 - Main R
That way, all you need to do is run a 4-core cable to each sub, and link to the main speakers.
The T304 is a little cheaper, but might be short on output. Check the datasheet to be sure. I'm thinking of getting a couple for stage monitoring.
If you talk to some suppliers, you'll probably find you can get a T604 for quite a lot less than the list price.
For a low-cost alternative, I'd be looking at Behringer NX series. An NX6000 will match two channels of a T604, so you'll need 2x NX6000 to match power levels. The DSP is decent enough, but isn't up to the standards of the processing in the Powersoft amps.
Chris
The T604 is an excellent bit of kit. If you're thinking about bridging the last two channels and wiring the speakers in series, you might as well use the channels individually. Electrically, it's exactly the same.
Better yet, since the output is 2x NL4 sockets, I'd run:
Ch1 - Sub L
Ch2 - Main L
Ch3 - Sub R
Ch4 - Main R
That way, all you need to do is run a 4-core cable to each sub, and link to the main speakers.
The T304 is a little cheaper, but might be short on output. Check the datasheet to be sure. I'm thinking of getting a couple for stage monitoring.
If you talk to some suppliers, you'll probably find you can get a T604 for quite a lot less than the list price.
For a low-cost alternative, I'd be looking at Behringer NX series. An NX6000 will match two channels of a T604, so you'll need 2x NX6000 to match power levels. The DSP is decent enough, but isn't up to the standards of the processing in the Powersoft amps.
Chris
@MAACO: The idea is to use the Spotify app as is and use a „Dante Virtual Soundcard“ as Windows output device. I think there is no way to avoid / circumvent the superfluous Windows mixer in the digital path…
@chris661:
„The T604 is an excellent bit of kit. If you're thinking about bridging the last two channels and wiring the speakers in series, you might as well use the channels individually. Electrically, it's exactly the same.
„
This is only the same as long as you invert one channel (and invert the speaker). Using channels individually w/o phase inversion will lead to both channels sucking energy at the same time from the same rail and a decreased chance to get through one low frequency half wave without too much rail voltage sag affecting the ouput (while the other rail is idling).
Behr. NX series is not an alternative although hey offer TREMENDUOUS value for money.
But 2 NX = 4U vs. P-Soft = 1U!
„Your speakers are sounding powerful and clean tonight. But where did you hide your big amplifier rack?“
„Oh, I sold it a few weeks ago“
@chris661:
„The T604 is an excellent bit of kit. If you're thinking about bridging the last two channels and wiring the speakers in series, you might as well use the channels individually. Electrically, it's exactly the same.
„
This is only the same as long as you invert one channel (and invert the speaker). Using channels individually w/o phase inversion will lead to both channels sucking energy at the same time from the same rail and a decreased chance to get through one low frequency half wave without too much rail voltage sag affecting the ouput (while the other rail is idling).
Behr. NX series is not an alternative although hey offer TREMENDUOUS value for money.
But 2 NX = 4U vs. P-Soft = 1U!
„Your speakers are sounding powerful and clean tonight. But where did you hide your big amplifier rack?“
„Oh, I sold it a few weeks ago“
Why passive speakers? Why not active?
You said Spotify and "best possible sound quality" in the same sentence.
You're obsessing about all the wrong things here... D/A conversions and balanced power supply loads, how well the processing is matched to the speakers and the quality of the source material rank much higher IMO. I totally get the desire to streamline your rig and lighten your load, I own a passive rig that is a bear to move (215s over 218s with 4 amps and DSP in a rack) but I also own 4 powered subs and 8 powered 2-way tops that get used the vast majority of the time. I love how simple these are to setup, roll in and place the speakers, connect them to the source and AC power and I'm done. I get a reminder of just how clumsy having an amp rack can be the odd time my passive rig goes out now... oh yeah... I got to find a place for that thing too. Powered speakers have come a long way, I don't have any with it but if you want digital all the way to the speakers it's possible now with products from JBL and Turbosound to name a couple. This link gets you more than just digital audio too you also get realtime monitoring and remote adjustability.
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It's entirely possible that Powersoft already do that for you. All they have to do is run an amplifier section with reversed polarity, and wire the SpeakOn connectors accordingly.
I wouldn't worry so much, though - they're good solid amps, and whichever way they've done the polarity, you won't find any problems there.
FWIW, I bridged a T602 into a 4ohm (nominal) 2x 18" sub, and played some dubstep (sustained sine tones etc) when it was metering 6dB into clip.
Sounded fine - no obvious hint that the power supply (or anything else) was struggling. Your T604 will be running different loads on the other two channels, so I really wouldn't bother with your idea of inverting channels etc. They have enough power do the job.
To reiterate, you can get digital out via AES/EBU, and you don't need to mess around with Dante. Your life will be much easier if you do it that way.
Chris
Coz I need to go Bluetooth with active speakers (which equals "gapping" which I cannot accept. I do not understand why the Bluoetooth technology could'nt solve the gapping issue until today) OR I need to use an audio interface and cannot avoid that superfluous DA - AD conversion. Other that that, the idea of active speakers is fine.
I admit that I have no idea about AES / EBU and I need to do some research / googling on that. But I think I d still need to carry some kind of interface. A cable between Laptop and 1U amp is the high goal of setup easiness.
Currently I have 2 BR cubes high tuned to 44Hz using 18NLW9400. The do quite some decent SPL (at the lack of infrasonic) when pushed by my XTI6002. Thinking of 4 x 15 inch ultra-compact size low weight BR cubes instead. Your opinion?
Currently I have 2 x 15-inch-3-way dinosaurs (RCF Event 4000), where I ve exchanged the broken woofers from RCF to Beyma 15MI100 a few years ago. Crossover to 18"s is 110Hz for highest SPL. I have no idea if any of the current 12 inch 2 ways can reach that SPL level w / o too much woofer excursion / intermodulation. Or maybe some kind of 15 inch 2 way. Think the 3 ways are no more popular. But I am not after popularity or "brand recognition" or fashion or anything. I am looking for SPL, size, weight, performance, ease of setup, scalability.
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2 x 8 Ohms paralleled and bridged (4Ohms, 2 Ohms effective per channel) at -6dB output-wise equals 2 x 8 Ohms series'ed and bridged (16 Ohms, 8 Ohms effective per channel) right at clip level. The Class D Amp's PSU would see roughly the same load, but the output stage MOSFETS would get less current / heat stress in my connection example (Your wiring offers more voltage headroom but my version would improve on the damping, that is why I 'd prefer it.).
Dante Virtual Soundcard | Audinate
Yep, fair enough. My mistake.
I had only ever seen external (USB) devices for Dante. It's still extra programming work, but it looks possible to run audio straight out of the ethernet connector.
Chris
What? no... you're looking at the junk end of the powered speaker spectrum. Go lookup a JBL SRX of Turbosound Sienna powered box, these use a hard wired(ethernet based) digital link.
You've not understood my post.
The amplifier was metering 6dB into clipping.
ie, we were just at the onset of clipping, and then I pushed the fader to +6dB to see what would happen.
The amplifier held up well, despite the difficult operating conditions.
Chris
You guys drive the poor amps hard, 2 Ohms and clipping etc... OMG.
I usually go only 8 Ohms per channel, with one channel inverted.
2 x 8 in par. = 4 Ohms on one channel is the lowest impedance that I can do w/o headache.
@MAACO: I ll check out Voicemeeter (never heard of it) - thanks 4 the info.
I usually go only 8 Ohms per channel, with one channel inverted.
2 x 8 in par. = 4 Ohms on one channel is the lowest impedance that I can do w/o headache.
@MAACO: I ll check out Voicemeeter (never heard of it) - thanks 4 the info.
Tom, Voicemeeter works quite well in a more permanent or at home setup, but I do not think it's fair to compare VM with the Dante setup, different league.
The cheapest way to go Dante without buying the Powersoft series, would be getting the Dante adapters, they have all sorts, USB, AES, Balanced mono or stereo, ins and outs of all kinds, get whichever you want/need.
I've been drooling over the active speaker DZR series from Yamaha, the ones with "D" at the end are with built in Dante. The Yamaha DZR12 goes well with the subs, there's also the DZR315 3way that might possibly get the whole job done in one x 2 package.
The cheapest way to go Dante without buying the Powersoft series, would be getting the Dante adapters, they have all sorts, USB, AES, Balanced mono or stereo, ins and outs of all kinds, get whichever you want/need.
I've been drooling over the active speaker DZR series from Yamaha, the ones with "D" at the end are with built in Dante. The Yamaha DZR12 goes well with the subs, there's also the DZR315 3way that might possibly get the whole job done in one x 2 package.
Hello, Kaffimann, I don't want any "adapters", nor any audio interfaces, I just want one cable.
I saw your other thread, you are a tinkerer, that's great, I LOVE tinkering, since that is how I started many years ago.
Tinkering to get things working the cheap way. But over time, there comes the wish to get the "best of the best stuff" "just to have it coz you are worth nothing less". I am a home discotheque guy wanting to start as a DJ for free - just for fun. I know that I 'll need to pay for my equipment w/o any compensation other than occasional drinks. So my business case isn't very wise (foolish like that of a fanboy saving up for the latest sports car). I Just want to have fun.
I am not too hard pressed if the amp is maybe EUR3K since I can save 100 times more by just NOT buying the latest sports car. Besides, there is the value of used equipment too, with Powersoft being one of the top brands (since their amps do not need babysitting ;-) Anyway - does the T series have a noisy fan under no load?
I saw your other thread, you are a tinkerer, that's great, I LOVE tinkering, since that is how I started many years ago.
Tinkering to get things working the cheap way. But over time, there comes the wish to get the "best of the best stuff" "just to have it coz you are worth nothing less". I am a home discotheque guy wanting to start as a DJ for free - just for fun. I know that I 'll need to pay for my equipment w/o any compensation other than occasional drinks. So my business case isn't very wise (foolish like that of a fanboy saving up for the latest sports car). I Just want to have fun.
I am not too hard pressed if the amp is maybe EUR3K since I can save 100 times more by just NOT buying the latest sports car. Besides, there is the value of used equipment too, with Powersoft being one of the top brands (since their amps do not need babysitting ;-) Anyway - does the T series have a noisy fan under no load?
"What? no... you're looking at the junk end of the powered speaker spectrum. Go lookup a JBL SRX of Turbosound Sienna powered box, these use a hard wired(ethernet based) digital link."
JBL SRX835P I have been watching for years now. If only they were half the weight.....
Guess the Ethernet on SRX is just for HiQnet, not for audio, right?
JBL SRX835P I have been watching for years now. If only they were half the weight.....
Guess the Ethernet on SRX is just for HiQnet, not for audio, right?
almost all pro. industry equipment video and audio is DANTE, i have to deal with it every day. Sometimes it doesn't make sense because it does become in the control of the programmer. but that does not mean that you lose control
it simply passes the information thru the network
ie just looked this up The Yamaha Dante-MY16-AUD2 card is a fully compatible Yamaha Mini-YGDAI standard card that instantly Dante enables your Yamaha mixer, processor or power amp. Each Dante-MY16-AUD2 provides 16 bidirectional audio channels (8 at 96 kHz) and full Dante network audio redundancy over Gigabit Ethernet. so you still have all your mixer control your just passing them thru the net.
it simply passes the information thru the network
ie just looked this up The Yamaha Dante-MY16-AUD2 card is a fully compatible Yamaha Mini-YGDAI standard card that instantly Dante enables your Yamaha mixer, processor or power amp. Each Dante-MY16-AUD2 provides 16 bidirectional audio channels (8 at 96 kHz) and full Dante network audio redundancy over Gigabit Ethernet. so you still have all your mixer control your just passing them thru the net.
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