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Dante and Powersoft T Series
Dante and Powersoft T Series
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Old 8th July 2019, 06:34 PM   #71
ViennaTom is offline ViennaTom
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You can make loud noise or make -10dB noise both in phase and out of phase, note the power consumption difference in percent, then go full power at out of phase. then we can add the percentage to this measurement.
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Old 18th July 2019, 01:07 AM   #72
Cableaddict is offline Cableaddict
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Originally Posted by ViennaTom View Post
I

What about the current state of passive top speakers? I have not followed the development in detail over the last years. How are 2 ways different from 3 ways SQ-wise? Is there any remedy for the woofer modulating the midrange in 2 way speakers? Can a compact 12" speaker today do what my 20+ year old 15-3 was doing, weighing only a fraction? I am not going to carry 40 kg speakers.
I am looking for SPL, low size and weight. I want good SQ. To enable those goals, I am willing to spend some €€$$.
Any suggestions?

Empty cans & gallons of worms, all over the floor !!!

I recently went through this, looking for new speakers for my rock band. (to use with subs, of course.)

My old speakers were 2-way concentric: Tannoy T300's. I can honestly say that, within maybe 20 feet, I've never heard a better live speaker. Just astonishingly good. However, I found that at larger distances, even just to the back of a smaliish club, the low-mids would not make the trip, and that kills both rock vocals and power guitar chords..

This was likely due to two different factors:
1: One single 12" on each side is just not enough cone area. (many sound guys feel the same way about the otherwise excellent Danley SM80)
2: Lack of dispersion control below the ~ 2K crossover.

Also, while I loved these speakers for overall use, they were a little too "polite" for a rock band. I wanted something with a more commanding midrange.
2-way 15's just don't work, for several reasons.

So, pretty much everyone here sold me on the idea of 3-way boxes. (Thanks, Chris ! ) - but I also needed something I can set up on my own, for solo gigs. That's some trick. I also wanted around 90 horizontal dispersion, and a tight vertical dispersion. I don't care if they' active or passive, as long as thepassive boxes have high end processors.
And last, I wanted a fairly large HF exit, as this supposedly works better for rock vocals.

The ones I was considering:

Fulcrum Audio FA22ac (or it's cheap, import "copy", the PresSonus 328AI)
JTR NOESIS 3tX
JTR Triple 12x.
dB Tech FLEXSYS F315
EAW KF394 (Active or passive)
EV QRx153/75
QSC HPR153i
---------------------

There are others out there, but these most closely met all my criteria, except the dB Tech as it has a 1" exit, but it's a good speaker so I listed it anyway.

My first choice was, and still is, the Fulcrum. - But the price tag is STEEP. About the same as the active KF39's.

Then I got lucky, and a pristine pair of passive EAW 394's came up on Ebay for a great price. I already had three Lab Gruppen amps, so this was a no-brainer.
I picked up a new UX3600 processor, and am using that like a drive rack for my whole system, plus it has the "greybox" gunness focusing for the tops.

Oh baby, I LIKE these boxes ! They are not nearly as sweet and "hi fi" as my old Tannoys, but they have much better midrange presence, and the pattern control is fantastic, all the way down to about 400 Hz. The amount of upper bass coming out of those two tens (per side) is really surprising, and the BMS coaxial's reputation exists for a reason.

AND THEY WEIGH LESS THAN 70 LBS !

If you can find these used, jump. You could also probably make your own, sans the gunness focusing. I could provide internal pics if anyone is interested.

Last edited by Cableaddict; 18th July 2019 at 01:23 AM.
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Old 18th July 2019, 01:11 AM   #73
Cableaddict is offline Cableaddict
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Oh, and FWIW, if you are intent on using Dante, (I wouldn't be) then you can get the new EAW UX48 processor, which has Dante.

Personally, I don't see much advantage with a small system.
Plus, I'm told that Dante suffers from some latency issues. How bad that is, and if it would actually be significant for me, I don't know, but I also don't care to find out.

As other have said, plain old AES (or even SPDF for short distances) is just fine. (Assuming your source audio even has digital output.)

===================

And a question for you amp gurus:


Let's say your source audio DOES have digital output, and you run that into an amp (or powered speaker) with a digital input.
And the amps being used are class D.

Typically, does that mean there is no DA / AD conversion, before the speakers? Does the signal stay digital right through the amp circuit?

I wouldn't be surprised if that's not always the case, and that "digital input" is sometimes just a marketing thing.

Last edited by Cableaddict; 18th July 2019 at 01:28 AM.
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Old 19th July 2019, 09:17 PM   #74
ViennaTom is offline ViennaTom
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@ Cable: Of course you have a DA conversion in an amp with digital input. Otherwise you cannot feed the PWM modulator, if there is an analogue input too.
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Old 19th July 2019, 11:32 PM   #75
Cableaddict is offline Cableaddict
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@ Cable: Of course you have a DA conversion in an amp with digital input. Otherwise you cannot feed the PWM modulator, if there is an analogue input too.

But if that's true, then what's the point of running AES to your speakers, instead of analogue?
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Old 20th July 2019, 11:00 AM   #76
chris661 is offline chris661  United Kingdom
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Running analogue out from a digital desk means you've converted to analogue for the desk output, and then converted back to digital for the amp's DSP.

Feeding digital from desk to amp means you avoid that round of converting to and from analogue.

My next desk will have digital output.

Chris
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Old 22nd July 2019, 12:23 AM   #77
Cableaddict is offline Cableaddict
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Running analogue out from a digital desk means you've converted to analogue for the desk output, and then converted back to digital for the amp's DSP.

Chris
Yes, but what if you don't need the amp's DSP?

And what if you have a super high quality DA converter upstream?
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Old 22nd July 2019, 07:21 AM   #78
chris661 is offline chris661  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by Cableaddict View Post
Yes, but what if you don't need the amp's DSP?

And what if you have a super high quality DA converter upstream?
With the T-series (and a lot of other amps that have DSP built in), you can't bypass the DSP.

Powersoft do give some detail of the DAC they used on the output of the DSP. IIRC, it's a decent-quality unit, but I'm not particularly well-read on that side of things.

FWIW, if you're doing PA work with these amps, you need the DSP. Things like the True Power limiters are invaluable.

Chris
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Old 22nd July 2019, 07:29 AM   #79
Cableaddict is offline Cableaddict
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The T series looks good, but I have zero use for on-amp DSP. I've got everything I need in my processor, including voltage-based limiting. I'd much rather do it all in one central location, with one central bank of presets.

I suppose that sometime in the future, an all-digital transmission path will be common, even in smaller "club" systems, but I don't think we're quite there yet.
Still, it might be something to start planning for.

But again, I'd still want as much control as possible in one central processor. It's one reason I like the EAW system, with passive speakers and all control (including gunness focusing) in the UX box. Even if I eventually upgrade to their UX48 processor, with has AES output, I'd prefer to not use any in-amp processing.

Last edited by Cableaddict; 22nd July 2019 at 07:33 AM.
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Old 22nd July 2019, 09:36 AM   #80
chris661 is offline chris661  United Kingdom
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Remember that voltage-based limiting isn't the same as power-based. The amplifier can monitor current output, too.

That said, if the processor is a good one with sense lines etc, then it'll probably take care of things just fine.

I'd still suggest that, even with DSP bypassed, the T-series are a good set of amplifiers although I can see why you might want to look elsewhere. Powersoft do have other amps available - the M series is available without DSP, but it's getting long in the tooth these days. There's also the install amps, but you'll need a pile of adapters to get those working.

Other brands are available.

Chris
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