Somewhere in the 65V RMS region. Not weighted. The speaker has a flat response (with the passive crossover in place), so it was 125dB sine tones from 100Hz upwards.
Other drivers are available, and I'd recommend doing some research on what else is out there. I was in touch with Faital Pro for a while before deciding to go ahead with my purchase, and that was a single for testing purposes. I like the driver enough to plan on using it for my small FOH and stage monitor applications.
The Lambda sub looks okay, but DIYing can probably get similar performance. There isn't much new in the world of subwoofers (apart from the M-Force drivers), so I don't see the appeal of buying off-the-shelf passive subwoofers.
Chris
Other drivers are available, and I'd recommend doing some research on what else is out there. I was in touch with Faital Pro for a while before deciding to go ahead with my purchase, and that was a single for testing purposes. I like the driver enough to plan on using it for my small FOH and stage monitor applications.
The Lambda sub looks okay, but DIYing can probably get similar performance. There isn't much new in the world of subwoofers (apart from the M-Force drivers), so I don't see the appeal of buying off-the-shelf passive subwoofers.
Chris
OK I am for sure not going to do any DIY speaker build anymore.
There is exactly NOTHING you can save. Nothing in return for your work. ZERO.
Why?
The $$$ you save is the same $$$ that you are NOT getting back by selling.
1st: Try to sell recognized brand name - model name - condition.... on ebay - all ok.
2nd Try to sell ... oh I ve put this super driver into that cabinet and I even did some passive XOVER optimization and.... btw. the speaker works... really...you have to believe me that all is well. FORGET IT INSTANTLY!
That is what I am seeing when trying to sell my old system containing lots of DIY. No one s interested apart from some guys joking if the number of zeros in the asking price statement is "wrong by mistake" or if I am "stupid enough to mean it that way"..... hahaha how funny!
The $$$ invested in recognized brand gear is not wasted - it is "invested". That is how I see the situation.
There is exactly NOTHING you can save. Nothing in return for your work. ZERO.
Why?
The $$$ you save is the same $$$ that you are NOT getting back by selling.
1st: Try to sell recognized brand name - model name - condition.... on ebay - all ok.
2nd Try to sell ... oh I ve put this super driver into that cabinet and I even did some passive XOVER optimization and.... btw. the speaker works... really...you have to believe me that all is well. FORGET IT INSTANTLY!
That is what I am seeing when trying to sell my old system containing lots of DIY. No one s interested apart from some guys joking if the number of zeros in the asking price statement is "wrong by mistake" or if I am "stupid enough to mean it that way"..... hahaha how funny!
The $$$ invested in recognized brand gear is not wasted - it is "invested". That is how I see the situation.
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Got a nice quote (bout 10% above my initial budget) from a local dealer for the following:
1 x T604,
2 x Alps audio Epos e-115b,
2 x Alps audio Epos e-12.
Could not find any info on the "e-12" - seems to be an outdated model.
BTW: 2 x Lambda Labs TX-2A + 2 x MF-15 would be significantly more expensive, but I begin to like that option.
1 x T604,
2 x Alps audio Epos e-115b,
2 x Alps audio Epos e-12.
Could not find any info on the "e-12" - seems to be an outdated model.
BTW: 2 x Lambda Labs TX-2A + 2 x MF-15 would be significantly more expensive, but I begin to like that option.
Fair enough if that's how you feel.
For me, I build the speakers and then use them until the end of their working life. If I can sell them on and get any money at all, that's a bonus.
I'd rather pay £500 for a driver and some wood and do the work myself, than to pay £5000 for something with similar performance, even if I will get £1000 back in the end.
Chris
Hi Everyone, I keep reading these post and always wondering what it's really all about.
I just finished wiring a rack with 2 ( labgrouppen d 200 4l amps ) and a (extron epa 1002-70)
then I looked at the print and see the way the speakers will be wired and have to ask myself who makes this stuff up and do they really know what they are doing or hearing.
the answer is no they don't. When I read that a system hits 135 db or uses references of DB i just shake my head. and yes making your own system is worth it. Paying a lot for a high end driver is worth it, putting money into a good power amp is worth it.
in my opinion and only mine, driver size is absolutely needed if you want to punch base through a large crowd, mid's and highs are easy in comparison
Think of old school large venue bands with massive speaker towers and more power than you can imagine.
I can go on and on but whats the point, it's strictly a matter of what we are in our audio worlds trying to accomplish and at what price.
at some point you find out that making your own speaker systems is truly the way to go, unless money is no object. Just like the company who's racks I've been building since last December, money is no object but we are not them. i'll stop
I just finished wiring a rack with 2 ( labgrouppen d 200 4l amps ) and a (extron epa 1002-70)
then I looked at the print and see the way the speakers will be wired and have to ask myself who makes this stuff up and do they really know what they are doing or hearing.
the answer is no they don't. When I read that a system hits 135 db or uses references of DB i just shake my head. and yes making your own system is worth it. Paying a lot for a high end driver is worth it, putting money into a good power amp is worth it.
in my opinion and only mine, driver size is absolutely needed if you want to punch base through a large crowd, mid's and highs are easy in comparison
Think of old school large venue bands with massive speaker towers and more power than you can imagine.
I can go on and on but whats the point, it's strictly a matter of what we are in our audio worlds trying to accomplish and at what price.
at some point you find out that making your own speaker systems is truly the way to go, unless money is no object. Just like the company who's racks I've been building since last December, money is no object but we are not them. i'll stop
Guess on 5000 pound stuff you can easily get back 2k after a few years. Just treat the stuff properly. In my case - I now have to work full time since my former part time job went with the location away, even many years after my burn out now feeling quite operating at the physical limit due to having to get up 5 times a week - I always have a few dollars at hand to spend, but no time or energy left to DIY . That used to be different a few years ago. So this really depends on the personal situation. My DIY time is basically over. Just want to relax and maybe turn up the volume slider at weekends.
You'll never be able to sell DIY stuff for profit.
But if the goal is to have something for your or a friends or relatives bar, cafè, disco or band etc.
Then I'd say it can be well worth the investment.
You get good performance, and something built for the specific purpose or room where it is needed.
But as a way to make money or at least break even on the parts bought?
Not gonna happen.
I'm a fairly hardcore DIY guy, speaker wise, but I understand the objections. I can always make the case that I'm building things to fit my exact needs, but really, I design my own tops because I love the process.
That said, I've been at this for 35+ years, and IMO from an initial investment, ROI, or resale perspective it is pretty much always best to buy a well-cared for example of a piece of high-end gear vs just about anything you could buy new or build yourself. I think that is particularly true for speakers, but I often don't take my own advice. I do have a pair Danleys that I bought used for about 35% of their list price a year ago, I am quite certain I could sell them today, or three years from now, for exactly what I paid for them.
But back to the question of DJ-oriented passive tops...
I've seen the JBL MD46 selling in a few places (EBay, for one) for a confusingly-low price of $1000 each... new. Also come across used copies of that model for about the same price. If I was still DJing (and still had a young back) I think I'd be looking closely at them.
The MD46 is a 4-way double-15 (the neo 2265), with a JBL 8" CMCD midrange, a 3.0/1.5" CD (the 2432H), and some bullet tweeters.
That mid/high horn & driver compliment is the same one used in the STX835, which IMO is a fairly huge step up (in SQ, but also weight and price!) from the SRX835 mentioned earlier.
I own, and like, the woofers and the 8" CMCD mid (fantastic, IMO), but have never heard an MD46. Knowing some of the parts, I suspect it would/should sound great with the right DSP tuning, and should be crazy loud. Might be hard to lug enough subs around to keep up with it.
As red meat to the anti-DIY'ers out there, you couldn't quite purchase those drivers for $1000, and this happens to be a finished speaker. The 2265 goes for $275-350 each, the CMCD mid & phase plugs are often $250+, the MH horn assembly is >$120, the JBL 2432H goes for $160 *used*, etc, etc.
Heck, I *am* a DIY guy, and I'm sorely tempted to buy some just to cut them up for parts. No idea why they're discounted so heavily.
Anyway, I'm curious if anyone is familiar with this specific model. Is the finished speaker more, or less, than the sum of its parts?
That said, I've been at this for 35+ years, and IMO from an initial investment, ROI, or resale perspective it is pretty much always best to buy a well-cared for example of a piece of high-end gear vs just about anything you could buy new or build yourself. I think that is particularly true for speakers, but I often don't take my own advice. I do have a pair Danleys that I bought used for about 35% of their list price a year ago, I am quite certain I could sell them today, or three years from now, for exactly what I paid for them.
But back to the question of DJ-oriented passive tops...
I've seen the JBL MD46 selling in a few places (EBay, for one) for a confusingly-low price of $1000 each... new. Also come across used copies of that model for about the same price. If I was still DJing (and still had a young back) I think I'd be looking closely at them.
The MD46 is a 4-way double-15 (the neo 2265), with a JBL 8" CMCD midrange, a 3.0/1.5" CD (the 2432H), and some bullet tweeters.
That mid/high horn & driver compliment is the same one used in the STX835, which IMO is a fairly huge step up (in SQ, but also weight and price!) from the SRX835 mentioned earlier.
I own, and like, the woofers and the 8" CMCD mid (fantastic, IMO), but have never heard an MD46. Knowing some of the parts, I suspect it would/should sound great with the right DSP tuning, and should be crazy loud. Might be hard to lug enough subs around to keep up with it.
As red meat to the anti-DIY'ers out there, you couldn't quite purchase those drivers for $1000, and this happens to be a finished speaker. The 2265 goes for $275-350 each, the CMCD mid & phase plugs are often $250+, the MH horn assembly is >$120, the JBL 2432H goes for $160 *used*, etc, etc.
Heck, I *am* a DIY guy, and I'm sorely tempted to buy some just to cut them up for parts. No idea why they're discounted so heavily.
Anyway, I'm curious if anyone is familiar with this specific model. Is the finished speaker more, or less, than the sum of its parts?
That is entirely possible. Probable, even.
That said, I have seen, and successfully purchased, some enormously discounted JBL pro speakers, and also high-end pro electronics that were definitely genuine. The discounts can be particularly steep on hugely heavy things like JBLs "AE" install-series speakers... ie, stadium-oriented stuff that is so big and heavy that nobody wants to move it around for portable applications. The typical story involves a club or other commercial venue that went belly-up right after (or sometimes before!) opening. The people selling this gear are often the contractors who are coming in afterwards to turn the venue into something else. They're ripping out the old gear and get it on the cheap... or in some cases are even getting paid to take it out!
Even given that, I'll admit this particular deal is suspiciously good / too good. The guy selling the new pairs has a decent feedback rating and isn't probably just stealing people's money, but the possibility of a counterfeit product can't be ignored. I've been quite amazed at the brazen-ness of the Chinese cloning operations, and the people cloning JBL drivers have definitely gone all-out in their efforts. I hadn't considered that this would extend to a whole speaker, but you may be right.
2 x JBL Marquis MD46 Dance Club Series 4 Way Loudspeaker Club / DJ Speaker | eBay
But I guess at a more typical used price of $2000-$2500 each this model would be off target / over budget.
That said, I have seen, and successfully purchased, some enormously discounted JBL pro speakers, and also high-end pro electronics that were definitely genuine. The discounts can be particularly steep on hugely heavy things like JBLs "AE" install-series speakers... ie, stadium-oriented stuff that is so big and heavy that nobody wants to move it around for portable applications. The typical story involves a club or other commercial venue that went belly-up right after (or sometimes before!) opening. The people selling this gear are often the contractors who are coming in afterwards to turn the venue into something else. They're ripping out the old gear and get it on the cheap... or in some cases are even getting paid to take it out!
Even given that, I'll admit this particular deal is suspiciously good / too good. The guy selling the new pairs has a decent feedback rating and isn't probably just stealing people's money, but the possibility of a counterfeit product can't be ignored. I've been quite amazed at the brazen-ness of the Chinese cloning operations, and the people cloning JBL drivers have definitely gone all-out in their efforts. I hadn't considered that this would extend to a whole speaker, but you may be right.
2 x JBL Marquis MD46 Dance Club Series 4 Way Loudspeaker Club / DJ Speaker | eBay
But I guess at a more typical used price of $2000-$2500 each this model would be off target / over budget.
Sadly, you often can't, even if you stumble onto the opportunity.
You should never underestimate the degree to which corporate accounting practices, laziness, and risk-aversion can result in big companies engaging in what would appear to us 'ordinary people' to be crazy behavior.
Big companies often want to get stuff off their books so badly that they will literally push unwanted items into a dumpster rather than put it on a shelf, give it away, or repurpose it. Institutions, corporate or otherwise, often don't have a clean way to handle it; they know how to buy things, sell things, or throw them away. Foolishly, IMO, most of the time the only things they know how to sell are related to their core business. Anything else, they'd rather throw away rather than figure out how to handle it on their books. If they are marginally more ecologically and/or economically responsible, they'll hire a scrap firm to come take the stuff away.
I'm consulting for a (really, really) big biotech company that is currently moving a (fairly) big project from the US back to its corporate mothership in Europe. Two weeks ago we were asked to pitch in and clean up an R&D lab. I'd guess (conservatively) that there was $5 million worth of stuff in the room. Lots of it was specialized, but quite expensive, but plenty of it was useful to the general consumer and trivially resellable. For example, we quickly filled up an 8' long industrial workbench with 25+ 2018-vintage 27" IMacs. Their serial numbers were noted so they could be expunged from the capital inventory list. Now the IMacs are going, not a a local school, university, library, or homeless shelter, but to the scrap company that won the bid to 'dispose' of the lab equipment. They are paying for this stuff *by weight*. Yup, the lab bench the IMacs are sitting on is literally costing them about the same as the 25 IMacs. An no, they wouldn't give or sell the IMacs to us. Believe me, we asked. Repeatedly.
Sorry for the diversion, but to bend my rant back around to audio, this sort of behavior can play in your favor if you look for it, but the place to look is firms that specialize in installed AV systems.
I recently re-amped my system to save space in my van, going from Crown XTI and XLS models to a smaller number of multichannel Powersoft and LabGruppen amps (see, I'm almost on-topic!). Both of those companies make models that are designed for road use, but also make nearly identical models that are designed for "permanent installation". The difference between the two model lines sometimes comes down to whether they have XLR connectors on the back, vs Phoenix-style "Euroblock" connectors, and whether they have a "70V" mode available.
When looking for new and used sources of these amps I noticed that a lot of the used 'install' versions of these amps were being sold by EBay (etc) stores that were clearly associated with either scrap firms, or corporate AV installers that make most of their money wiring up fancy corporate boardrooms, shopping malls, theme parks, cruise ships, etc. I'd look at what else they were selling, and typically see big digital projectors, enterprise-grade networking equipment, etc, teleconferencing hardware, etc, mixed in with the audio gear.
I've gotten some great deals from outfits like that. I've also recently bought new and used-but-warrantied PowerSoft amps from touring outfits that also sell to the corporate AV market (on being Rat Sound in CA, USA) at prices that were enormously discounted from the (admittedly highly inflated) MFG list. Frankly, if I'd realized how good a deal these 'real' dealers sometimes offer on still-under-warranty b-stock gear I'd have spent a lot less time on EBay. In the future I'll definitely call them first, rather than last.
My takeaway: institutions typically are even less interested in buying used gear than they are in selling it, so any not-new or not-quite-current equipment aimed at that market can be a fantastic deal if you hunt for it.
Back to those suspiciously cheap MD46 speakers... if they aren't stolen or counterfeit, they story behind them is probably some variation on what I just described above.
You should never underestimate the degree to which corporate accounting practices, laziness, and risk-aversion can result in big companies engaging in what would appear to us 'ordinary people' to be crazy behavior.
Big companies often want to get stuff off their books so badly that they will literally push unwanted items into a dumpster rather than put it on a shelf, give it away, or repurpose it. Institutions, corporate or otherwise, often don't have a clean way to handle it; they know how to buy things, sell things, or throw them away. Foolishly, IMO, most of the time the only things they know how to sell are related to their core business. Anything else, they'd rather throw away rather than figure out how to handle it on their books. If they are marginally more ecologically and/or economically responsible, they'll hire a scrap firm to come take the stuff away.
I'm consulting for a (really, really) big biotech company that is currently moving a (fairly) big project from the US back to its corporate mothership in Europe. Two weeks ago we were asked to pitch in and clean up an R&D lab. I'd guess (conservatively) that there was $5 million worth of stuff in the room. Lots of it was specialized, but quite expensive, but plenty of it was useful to the general consumer and trivially resellable. For example, we quickly filled up an 8' long industrial workbench with 25+ 2018-vintage 27" IMacs. Their serial numbers were noted so they could be expunged from the capital inventory list. Now the IMacs are going, not a a local school, university, library, or homeless shelter, but to the scrap company that won the bid to 'dispose' of the lab equipment. They are paying for this stuff *by weight*. Yup, the lab bench the IMacs are sitting on is literally costing them about the same as the 25 IMacs. An no, they wouldn't give or sell the IMacs to us. Believe me, we asked. Repeatedly.
Sorry for the diversion, but to bend my rant back around to audio, this sort of behavior can play in your favor if you look for it, but the place to look is firms that specialize in installed AV systems.
I recently re-amped my system to save space in my van, going from Crown XTI and XLS models to a smaller number of multichannel Powersoft and LabGruppen amps (see, I'm almost on-topic!). Both of those companies make models that are designed for road use, but also make nearly identical models that are designed for "permanent installation". The difference between the two model lines sometimes comes down to whether they have XLR connectors on the back, vs Phoenix-style "Euroblock" connectors, and whether they have a "70V" mode available.
When looking for new and used sources of these amps I noticed that a lot of the used 'install' versions of these amps were being sold by EBay (etc) stores that were clearly associated with either scrap firms, or corporate AV installers that make most of their money wiring up fancy corporate boardrooms, shopping malls, theme parks, cruise ships, etc. I'd look at what else they were selling, and typically see big digital projectors, enterprise-grade networking equipment, etc, teleconferencing hardware, etc, mixed in with the audio gear.
I've gotten some great deals from outfits like that. I've also recently bought new and used-but-warrantied PowerSoft amps from touring outfits that also sell to the corporate AV market (on being Rat Sound in CA, USA) at prices that were enormously discounted from the (admittedly highly inflated) MFG list. Frankly, if I'd realized how good a deal these 'real' dealers sometimes offer on still-under-warranty b-stock gear I'd have spent a lot less time on EBay. In the future I'll definitely call them first, rather than last.
My takeaway: institutions typically are even less interested in buying used gear than they are in selling it, so any not-new or not-quite-current equipment aimed at that market can be a fantastic deal if you hunt for it.
Back to those suspiciously cheap MD46 speakers... if they aren't stolen or counterfeit, they story behind them is probably some variation on what I just described above.
Oh boy how I d loved to take care of "disposing" the imacs. Not because I love iMAcs, but because they are easy-sell on ebay. I sold my late 2012 i7 quad core 27" fusion drive iMac in fall of 2018 at age 6 (!!) for EUR 900, and the guy knew that the HD (which you cannot swap) had hardware errors on it.
I am still thinking about that T604. There are various problems, one of them is where to store the old system if I get a new one (smaller and light-weight) and so on...
What came to my mind is the idea of substituting the gas generator (what I 'd use for carnival,... etc) by some big 19" Lithium pack (54V) plus a 19" DC--> 230VAC inverter, all integrated in one rack with the T604. Is there anybody who has experience on that? Guess using only the T604 Class D amp, I 'd need on average no more than maybe 750 real Watts, so including the DC - > AC conversion losses, a 75AH monster battery pack at 54V could give me almost 5 hours playing time at full power. If I turn down by 3dB, it could be almost10 hours. (The apparent power consumption of the T604 will be significantly higher than the real power draw, increasing the demands for the inverter to maybe 2000VA ?? Even though it has PFC, the musical pulses will cause some varying level of input current hence PF << 1).
What came to my mind is the idea of substituting the gas generator (what I 'd use for carnival,... etc) by some big 19" Lithium pack (54V) plus a 19" DC--> 230VAC inverter, all integrated in one rack with the T604. Is there anybody who has experience on that? Guess using only the T604 Class D amp, I 'd need on average no more than maybe 750 real Watts, so including the DC - > AC conversion losses, a 75AH monster battery pack at 54V could give me almost 5 hours playing time at full power. If I turn down by 3dB, it could be almost10 hours. (The apparent power consumption of the T604 will be significantly higher than the real power draw, increasing the demands for the inverter to maybe 2000VA ?? Even though it has PFC, the musical pulses will cause some varying level of input current hence PF << 1).
If you download Armonia Plus, you can have a look there. You can load in virtual amplifiers so you can find the workflow without actually purchasing the amps.
Under Power Config, here's the info I get:
- Peak/RMS mains voltage
- Peak/RMS mains current
- Average Power
- Amplifier temperature
My speaker configuration is as follows:
2x 2-way bi-amped speakers.
Ch1/3: 2x Faital Pro 10FH520 in parallel. Crossover around 800Hz to...
Ch2/4: 18Sound ND1460 on an RCF HF94
So two channels are running impedances that drop to around 3ohm for a good portion of the bandwidth (150Hz upwards is all below 4ohm)
The other two channels get a pretty easy life.
If you'd like me to give it some pain, let me know and I'll see what I can do - perhaps if I bridged it and connected a load of subs...
Chris
Under Power Config, here's the info I get:
- Peak/RMS mains voltage
- Peak/RMS mains current
- Average Power
- Amplifier temperature
My speaker configuration is as follows:
2x 2-way bi-amped speakers.
Ch1/3: 2x Faital Pro 10FH520 in parallel. Crossover around 800Hz to...
Ch2/4: 18Sound ND1460 on an RCF HF94
So two channels are running impedances that drop to around 3ohm for a good portion of the bandwidth (150Hz upwards is all below 4ohm)
The other two channels get a pretty easy life.
If you'd like me to give it some pain, let me know and I'll see what I can do - perhaps if I bridged it and connected a load of subs...
Chris
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