Hi everyone, I need help regarding wireless microphones and phantom power,
somehow or other I find myself involved with a small performing group putting on shows to raise money for charities. The mixing desk is and old one with 6 XLR inputs and global phantom power, there is a mixture of mics involved, dynamic, condenser and wireless and all needed at the same time. What would be the best way to handle this, any advice appreciated.
somehow or other I find myself involved with a small performing group putting on shows to raise money for charities. The mixing desk is and old one with 6 XLR inputs and global phantom power, there is a mixture of mics involved, dynamic, condenser and wireless and all needed at the same time. What would be the best way to handle this, any advice appreciated.
If You have problems with the wireless mics, disable desk's phantom power and insert a 48V PSU between the condenser mic and the desk.
I have some wireless AKG's that don't like the desk's phantom power switched on.
You can always try a new Yamaha MG10 or 12 channel desk, since there will be probably less noise because of new circuitry.
I have some wireless AKG's that don't like the desk's phantom power switched on.
You can always try a new Yamaha MG10 or 12 channel desk, since there will be probably less noise because of new circuitry.
Condenser mics require phantom power, dynamic and wireless do not.
Phantom power on a dynamic mic is fine as pins 2 & 3 are at the same potential. If your wireless mic has balanced output, it will be fine. If it uses pin 2 of the XLR as signal and pin 3 is connected to pin 1, it will disable the phantom power. Use an Aux input instead for the wireless mic.
Phantom power on a dynamic mic is fine as pins 2 & 3 are at the same potential. If your wireless mic has balanced output, it will be fine. If it uses pin 2 of the XLR as signal and pin 3 is connected to pin 1, it will disable the phantom power. Use an Aux input instead for the wireless mic.
Thank you MAACO and JonSnell for your quick reply's, the mixer does have XLR connections, I will find a suitable length of an XLR cable to make up two lines, as there are two receivers, placed about 4 feet away up high with line of sight to the transmitters. with pin 3 connected to pin 1 and mark them up for wireless receivers only.
You both have given me alternatives that I would never have thought about, thanks a lot.
Ray.
You both have given me alternatives that I would never have thought about, thanks a lot.
Ray.
That doesn't seem like a good idea. Most wireless mic receivers with XLR outputs are built to deal with phantom power. They don't need it, but are protected against it - for obvious reasons. Pin 3 to pin 1 ground will short out the phantom power. That's probably OK for that input, but might not be OK for the other inputs. Just depends on how the mixing deck is wired.
There should be no problem even with everything connected to the XLR inputs, if for some reason the wireless receivers don't like being fed phantom power simply connect them to the TRS jacks on the same channels which will bypass the mic preamps and phantom, or to a set of line input channels. Most wireless receivers have a switch or level control to accomodate both types of inputs.
Thank you all for the quick replies and helpful advice, I see that you all agree on that I can use an XLR cable from wireless receiver to mixer and phantom power should not be an issue, or use the 1/4 inch unbalanced output from the receiver to a Aux in or a line in on the mixer. I have my first rehearsal with them next week, will let you know how I get on.
Hi everyone,
Had my first meeting with the group this week, they are 22 strong, but can't say the same for the equipment they have been using.
Mixing desk I yet have to find out the make, two amps by pulse of 75 watts each, no idea of the Ohm rating. 2 unknown speakers with jack only inputs and 250 watts into 8 Ohms, speaker stands with no support pins and locking screws with only half a handle to dig into your hand, mic stands are very lightweight tripod types with spring clip mic holders and unable to adjust for height as they don't lock into any position without sliding down, miles of cables all 1/4 inch jack plugs, of a thin gauge and in poor condition, 2 dynamic mics, fixed cable to jack, 2 condenser mics that have had a hard life by the dents in them, the 2 wireless receivers are by "CAM" with two mics to each receiver, nothing has a PAT label attached. I cant believe that this is the gear that has been used by them. I will need to check the mixer and the speakers, if ok, all the other items need replacing, other wise it's a case of a complete system.
Awaiting the groups decision. I'm no expert just a person that likes being involved with PA etc. I would be interested in what people here on the forum would do.
Had my first meeting with the group this week, they are 22 strong, but can't say the same for the equipment they have been using.
Mixing desk I yet have to find out the make, two amps by pulse of 75 watts each, no idea of the Ohm rating. 2 unknown speakers with jack only inputs and 250 watts into 8 Ohms, speaker stands with no support pins and locking screws with only half a handle to dig into your hand, mic stands are very lightweight tripod types with spring clip mic holders and unable to adjust for height as they don't lock into any position without sliding down, miles of cables all 1/4 inch jack plugs, of a thin gauge and in poor condition, 2 dynamic mics, fixed cable to jack, 2 condenser mics that have had a hard life by the dents in them, the 2 wireless receivers are by "CAM" with two mics to each receiver, nothing has a PAT label attached. I cant believe that this is the gear that has been used by them. I will need to check the mixer and the speakers, if ok, all the other items need replacing, other wise it's a case of a complete system.
Awaiting the groups decision. I'm no expert just a person that likes being involved with PA etc. I would be interested in what people here on the forum would do.
How long is a minuet anyway!
I do sound for a local amateur theatre group. It is associated with a church, so we use their equipment which includes a few AKG and Line 6 wireless mics. For larger productions we rent equipment from our local pro audio store. I have never had an issue with phantom power using any of our wireless mics or the shure, line6, and Sennheiser mics that we rent. We use a Peavey mixer and the ones I rent are typically Yorkville or Allen and Heath. Some of the A and H mixers have Phantom power switchable for each mic channel. Renting for performances may be the way to go for your group if your existing equipment is compromised in terms of performance or reliability. It is common for charity groups to be strapped for funds. It is almost always better to spend some money on rental equipment than to have a bad sounding event. A small portion of our theatre groups profits go back into equipment purchases for items that it makes sense to own instead of rent.
FYI most of the wireless receivers I have looked at have XLRs available but are not truly balanced outputs. They call it balanced impedance outputs where they have signal on pin2 but pin3 has a resistor to ground. Since the receivers are normally placed close to the mixer or amplifier it typically does not cause issues.
If you are looking at wireless mics I have had excellent results with Sennheiser lately. I have had up to 18 wireless mics running during a performance of The Music Man which certainly keeps you busy at the board but the Sennheisers performed flawlessly even in such a RF rich environment and at distances of up to 100ft.
Doing sound for live shows has been great fun and a good learning experience for me. Good luck with your efforts.
That's a good question Bfpca, I think the answer would be the same as how long is a piece of string.
Thank you for your input and I found it useful and it makes sense, as you say these small groups are always tight for cash, but last year they made £2000 split between 2 charities, I see that, as them having a very loyal following, which could make them a bit set in their ways and I still cant believe that they did it with their existing equipment.
I was able to check out the mixer, amp and speakers this week, the mixer is a Cerwin-Vega, model CVM 1624 FX USB, works reasonably well, amp is on loan just to check out system, both speakers are unnamed, sound terrible. I will look into hiring for the total cost of at least four shows a year and then put that against the cost for some decent used items. The max audience is governed by the size of venue which is mostly local community centres of 130, so don't need anything too big, all suggestions welcome. This is mostly all new to me, I have been involved with filming local shows of various groups and making DVD's for the members, as for experience in sound setups, mine is placing mics to record into a remote recorder, or getting an output from the sound engineers desk, a bit of a learning curve but I am enjoying the challenge.
Thank you for your input and I found it useful and it makes sense, as you say these small groups are always tight for cash, but last year they made £2000 split between 2 charities, I see that, as them having a very loyal following, which could make them a bit set in their ways and I still cant believe that they did it with their existing equipment.
I was able to check out the mixer, amp and speakers this week, the mixer is a Cerwin-Vega, model CVM 1624 FX USB, works reasonably well, amp is on loan just to check out system, both speakers are unnamed, sound terrible. I will look into hiring for the total cost of at least four shows a year and then put that against the cost for some decent used items. The max audience is governed by the size of venue which is mostly local community centres of 130, so don't need anything too big, all suggestions welcome. This is mostly all new to me, I have been involved with filming local shows of various groups and making DVD's for the members, as for experience in sound setups, mine is placing mics to record into a remote recorder, or getting an output from the sound engineers desk, a bit of a learning curve but I am enjoying the challenge.
Buy powered speakers.. anything from a recognized brand will work and sound decent but of course the more you spend the better the results. Entry level powered speakers that sound and perform really well and most importantly that don't break down start with the EV ZLX line.
Renting is a great way to determine the minimum capability required of a speaker system for your application, once you know that don't buy anything until you have collected enough funds to afford that level of equipment.
Renting is a great way to determine the minimum capability required of a speaker system for your application, once you know that don't buy anything until you have collected enough funds to afford that level of equipment.
Powered speakers are pretty cheap to rent here. We rent them for all our theatre and dinner theatre performances. I recently rented a bunch of gear for a dinner theatre and for a Yorkville tough as nails, designed for the rental market 12” 1000w powered monitor it’s 25$/week.
I don’t have trouble getting approval to spend the $ on rental equipment. For the dinner theatre -5 shows over 2 weekends - we sold out all 5 nights - 90 /night at 30$ each. We have a reputation for strong performances on the theatre side and food way above the norm for amateur dinner theatres, so we make sure our sound is up to the same level. It pays off in future ticket sales and makes it easier to justify increases in ticket prices when food and other costs increase.
Good luck with your shows. If the speakers really are the limiting factor then renting is going to be the biggest bang for your money. You may need stands and cables as well which cost a bit extra. I wouldn’t use broken stands. They will fail at the worst possible time and may cause a heavy speaker to fall on a concert goer.
I don’t have trouble getting approval to spend the $ on rental equipment. For the dinner theatre -5 shows over 2 weekends - we sold out all 5 nights - 90 /night at 30$ each. We have a reputation for strong performances on the theatre side and food way above the norm for amateur dinner theatres, so we make sure our sound is up to the same level. It pays off in future ticket sales and makes it easier to justify increases in ticket prices when food and other costs increase.
Good luck with your shows. If the speakers really are the limiting factor then renting is going to be the biggest bang for your money. You may need stands and cables as well which cost a bit extra. I wouldn’t use broken stands. They will fail at the worst possible time and may cause a heavy speaker to fall on a concert goer.
Thanks to Bfpca and Conanski for your advice, have made a few phone calls regarding hiring within a 60 mile radius of the groups venues, 2 only dealt with major events and
another, with a min size powered speakers were of 250w rms each. 2 speaker stands, 3 mic stands
and all cables, delivered installed and then collected at a cost of £210.00 per day. A forth company would hire out 2 peavey passive speakers, 250w into 8Ohms a Peavey PV6 amp, rated at 300w rms into 4Ohms /180w into 8 Ohms plus stands and cables for £160.00 a day, I disregarded this one as I thought balance between amp and speakers don't appear to me, to be a good match, or do they?, I think it's going to be a case of some good quality used gear.
another, with a min size powered speakers were of 250w rms each. 2 speaker stands, 3 mic stands
and all cables, delivered installed and then collected at a cost of £210.00 per day. A forth company would hire out 2 peavey passive speakers, 250w into 8Ohms a Peavey PV6 amp, rated at 300w rms into 4Ohms /180w into 8 Ohms plus stands and cables for £160.00 a day, I disregarded this one as I thought balance between amp and speakers don't appear to me, to be a good match, or do they?, I think it's going to be a case of some good quality used gear.
Just an update, did my first show with this group after doing two rehearsals with them.
30 minuets into the first half, mixer not outputting any signal to the amp, receiving ok from mics, keyboard, but no output.
I brought with me a spare mixer and amp plus cables and adaptor connectors, in less than 10 minuets the sound was back up.
Committee meeting next week to decide on a budget for a replacement sound system.
Will report back.
30 minuets into the first half, mixer not outputting any signal to the amp, receiving ok from mics, keyboard, but no output.
I brought with me a spare mixer and amp plus cables and adaptor connectors, in less than 10 minuets the sound was back up.
Committee meeting next week to decide on a budget for a replacement sound system.
Will report back.
Good on you for having backup gear! It pays to be prepared for equipment failure when using old or proven to be unreliable gear. I was using an older mixer at our church until it started acting wonky at a rehearsal. I refused to use it after that and rented a replacement. Mixers are typically hard to repair. On a lot of them you need to remove every control knob and jack mounting nut on the front panel to access the circuit board. It’s a big job and makes mixers expensive to repair.
FYI We have been running a 16 channel Peavey mixer for our services for the last 5 years with no issues. It was pretty reasonably priced.
FYI We have been running a 16 channel Peavey mixer for our services for the last 5 years with no issues. It was pretty reasonably priced.
I have found a what look likes a newish 10 inch active wedge speaker for stage use, with 1/4 inch jack and xlr inputs, hidden in a corner of the store room,it has not been used on stage as no one could get it to work, other than having the same volume as the mains and not getting a particular instrument or a voice from it.
I found It works through the aux send and correct control knobs engaged, connected with a unbalanced instrument cable.
The question I need help with is this: the aux send on the mixer is unbalanced 1/4 jack,
I need a long cable run of approx. 60 feet, can I use some sort of adaptor to connect to an XLR cable, which I have 20m of, without any problems. Thanks in advance.
I found It works through the aux send and correct control knobs engaged, connected with a unbalanced instrument cable.
The question I need help with is this: the aux send on the mixer is unbalanced 1/4 jack,
I need a long cable run of approx. 60 feet, can I use some sort of adaptor to connect to an XLR cable, which I have 20m of, without any problems. Thanks in advance.
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