Hi All!
Long time reader for my personal hi-fi needs, this is my first post.
I’ve always been doing my homework about Live P.A. sound and club sound. For the last few months I have been working with my father on an overhaul of the system at our 1200-cap independent concert venue.
I have solid experience tuning and using the venue’s P.A., which consists of 2x Adamson T-21 (in a concrete cavity under the stage) and 6x flown JBL SP225-6 (2-way reflex JBL 2226H + 2447J CD. I am working on upgrading the P.A. n the next few months I will pick your collective brain about this decision eventually.
For now, I need advice as I am in the process of assembling a dedicated system for dance music parties and electronic live sets. I was torn between going for a fully horn-loaded system, or a bass reflex system. I do like the more hi-fi sound of Reflex, and as this system will be mainly living inside a venue presenting wide ranges of music, I can’t stop thinking that Reflex might be a better choice as it might be more suited for other types of music (think music where this system would shine and the old JBL P.A. wouldn't, such as Jazz or acoustic sets).
I also want to be able to move the system easily, so horn loaded seems like an unwise decision. Thoughts?
This should be a 4-way system, everything will be quad-amped and ran from the following:
-1x 4|300Crown DCi Network on 4x JBL2405
-1x 4|800 Crown DCi Network on 4x Mid/High 2” CD
-2x 4|2400 Crown DCi Network (16,000W @ 4-ohm parallel) on 4x double 15”
-2x Powersoft K10 (24,000 W @ 4-ohm bridged) on the T-21 subs
-2xPowersoft K10 (16,000 W @ 4-ohm) on the 4x double 18”
-2x XTA DP448 for mains as I wanted the possibility of setting up the system as 4 independent channels for each 4-way stacks + a stereo set of tri-amped booth monitors.
I originally planned on building the system around custom cabinets around B&C drivers in either EAW or custom boxes.That said, I am currently sitting on 10x JBL2226H and 8x JBL 2242H that I would love to use in these boxes temporarily, until the first few events planned with the system are done and I can afford the B&C.
Could anyone advise on the feasibility of this? I was thinking maybe the cabinets could have different tunings using interchangeable ports tubes or something along those lines.
I like the look of the B&C 215 and B&C 218 but I have not heard them. This combination also seems like it would need to be altered or re-thought as the cabinets are both tuned at 40hz. I have plenty of sub-40hz power coming from the T-21s, so it might make sense to have the double 18” take care of less low-end reproduction.
My target for electronic crossovers will ultimately depend on the driver/boxes but I’m shooting for something like this:
2x Adamson T21: 33-90hz
4x double 18": 40-90hz
4x double 15" : 80hz-800hz
4x mid/hi horn: 800hz-10khz
4x JBL 2405: 8khz-up
Does that seem optimal? I’d like to avoid having a crossover in the middle of the vocal range, but that would require moving down to double 12” midbass and thus having to sell the 2226.
As you notice, I am also unsure and open to suggestions regarding the mid-hi driver and horn I’ll be purchasing in the next few weeks.
I want to have options to have the midbass cabs flown horizontally and subs grouped. To make it easier to both fly and stack the system at times, so I need to assemble a detachable mid-hi horn+tweeter array that will either live on top of the stacks or hung below a flown midcab,
I was looking at the JBL PT waveguide on an 8” JBL CMCD81 (it has a built-in phase plug) + comp driver (basically a skeletal version of the JBL AM6200).
Anything I should look into that has a similar form factor and narrow dispersion? (this horn is 40*60)
My other option is to have 90x50 horns that won’t require any fills but might give me more issues controlling reflections.
I was looking at an autotech SEOS-24 500hz horn coupled to a 2” throat comp driver. I didn’t have solid 2” drivers in mind for this, open to recommendations.
I was also thinking about the JBL 2397 and a recommended driver for it
I know this is a lot of questions, here’s what matters most:
-Cabinet design for B&C 15TBX100 that could also ‘work’ temporarily for JBL2226 (possible?). Commercially available boxes are also contenders.
-Cabinet design for B&C 18TBX100 that could also ‘work’ temporarily for JBL2242 (possible?) (B&C loaded EAW SB boxes are a personal favorite)
-Horn recommendations for the 2” CD, I have a preference for SEOS 22 and JBL 2397 but open to suggestions.
-Recommendations with 2” CD driver with SPL to keep up with all this at a reasonable price
-Should I just keep the JBL SP128s subs and restore them? Build boxes dedicated to the JBL2226 I have on hand? They're old school drivers but could it compete with other options?
Thank you so much for your time and help, this is a labour of love and you guys have taught me everything I ‘know’ so far, but I don’t have the experience to make these calls.
Your help is extremely appreciated!
Long time reader for my personal hi-fi needs, this is my first post.
I’ve always been doing my homework about Live P.A. sound and club sound. For the last few months I have been working with my father on an overhaul of the system at our 1200-cap independent concert venue.
I have solid experience tuning and using the venue’s P.A., which consists of 2x Adamson T-21 (in a concrete cavity under the stage) and 6x flown JBL SP225-6 (2-way reflex JBL 2226H + 2447J CD. I am working on upgrading the P.A. n the next few months I will pick your collective brain about this decision eventually.
For now, I need advice as I am in the process of assembling a dedicated system for dance music parties and electronic live sets. I was torn between going for a fully horn-loaded system, or a bass reflex system. I do like the more hi-fi sound of Reflex, and as this system will be mainly living inside a venue presenting wide ranges of music, I can’t stop thinking that Reflex might be a better choice as it might be more suited for other types of music (think music where this system would shine and the old JBL P.A. wouldn't, such as Jazz or acoustic sets).
I also want to be able to move the system easily, so horn loaded seems like an unwise decision. Thoughts?
This should be a 4-way system, everything will be quad-amped and ran from the following:
-1x 4|300Crown DCi Network on 4x JBL2405
-1x 4|800 Crown DCi Network on 4x Mid/High 2” CD
-2x 4|2400 Crown DCi Network (16,000W @ 4-ohm parallel) on 4x double 15”
-2x Powersoft K10 (24,000 W @ 4-ohm bridged) on the T-21 subs
-2xPowersoft K10 (16,000 W @ 4-ohm) on the 4x double 18”
-2x XTA DP448 for mains as I wanted the possibility of setting up the system as 4 independent channels for each 4-way stacks + a stereo set of tri-amped booth monitors.
I originally planned on building the system around custom cabinets around B&C drivers in either EAW or custom boxes.That said, I am currently sitting on 10x JBL2226H and 8x JBL 2242H that I would love to use in these boxes temporarily, until the first few events planned with the system are done and I can afford the B&C.
Could anyone advise on the feasibility of this? I was thinking maybe the cabinets could have different tunings using interchangeable ports tubes or something along those lines.
I like the look of the B&C 215 and B&C 218 but I have not heard them. This combination also seems like it would need to be altered or re-thought as the cabinets are both tuned at 40hz. I have plenty of sub-40hz power coming from the T-21s, so it might make sense to have the double 18” take care of less low-end reproduction.
My target for electronic crossovers will ultimately depend on the driver/boxes but I’m shooting for something like this:
2x Adamson T21: 33-90hz
4x double 18": 40-90hz
4x double 15" : 80hz-800hz
4x mid/hi horn: 800hz-10khz
4x JBL 2405: 8khz-up
Does that seem optimal? I’d like to avoid having a crossover in the middle of the vocal range, but that would require moving down to double 12” midbass and thus having to sell the 2226.
As you notice, I am also unsure and open to suggestions regarding the mid-hi driver and horn I’ll be purchasing in the next few weeks.
I want to have options to have the midbass cabs flown horizontally and subs grouped. To make it easier to both fly and stack the system at times, so I need to assemble a detachable mid-hi horn+tweeter array that will either live on top of the stacks or hung below a flown midcab,
I was looking at the JBL PT waveguide on an 8” JBL CMCD81 (it has a built-in phase plug) + comp driver (basically a skeletal version of the JBL AM6200).
Anything I should look into that has a similar form factor and narrow dispersion? (this horn is 40*60)
My other option is to have 90x50 horns that won’t require any fills but might give me more issues controlling reflections.
I was looking at an autotech SEOS-24 500hz horn coupled to a 2” throat comp driver. I didn’t have solid 2” drivers in mind for this, open to recommendations.
I was also thinking about the JBL 2397 and a recommended driver for it
I know this is a lot of questions, here’s what matters most:
-Cabinet design for B&C 15TBX100 that could also ‘work’ temporarily for JBL2226 (possible?). Commercially available boxes are also contenders.
-Cabinet design for B&C 18TBX100 that could also ‘work’ temporarily for JBL2242 (possible?) (B&C loaded EAW SB boxes are a personal favorite)
-Horn recommendations for the 2” CD, I have a preference for SEOS 22 and JBL 2397 but open to suggestions.
-Recommendations with 2” CD driver with SPL to keep up with all this at a reasonable price
-Should I just keep the JBL SP128s subs and restore them? Build boxes dedicated to the JBL2226 I have on hand? They're old school drivers but could it compete with other options?
Thank you so much for your time and help, this is a labour of love and you guys have taught me everything I ‘know’ so far, but I don’t have the experience to make these calls.
Your help is extremely appreciated!
No.
Here's why:
- You have overlapping crossover frequencies
- You really don't need the 18"s at all. They won't put out the bass that the 21"s can, and they won't go as high as the 15"s. They're just not doing anything useful.
- I'd only run a single 15" up to 800Hz. See next point.
- Your driver quantities in general will result in a lot of lobing and cancellations. Ideally, you'd have one source covering the entire area - take a look at how Danley approached that problem.
- You really need a dedicated cone midrange for a 4-way system.
If you really want to do a 4-way point source system, take a serious look at Nexo Alpha. See what they did, and figure out why.
Remember that, as you increase the number of crossover frequencies, system tuning gets exponentially more difficult. Think seriously about using a powerful 2x12" + HF top crossed straight to the 21" subs. It'll be easier and sound better, and you'll be able to afford more subs.
Chris
What about the current config do you feel is lacking? What is being used for to process the current sound system and have the recommended JBL tunings been implemented?
On the surface of it it sounds like an interesting project but I'm not sure you will achieve much of an upgrade. Reason being is you are replacing very good drivers and cabs with different very good drivers and cabs and that alone won't have much effect, the real magic happens with the processing and it isn't trivial to roll your own. For example the published response for the SP225-6 shows highend mostly flat out to almost 20khz, that simply isn't possible from a large voice coil CD without a pretty substantial boost and sure enough the JBL processing includes a 7dB boost from 8.3khz.
Now I can see some benefit from moving away from standard double 15 PA cabs to something that is more of a true point source.. maybe something coaxial loaded or even a unity/synergy horn, that should both look and sound more coherent and also reduce pattern overlap if properly deployed.
As for subs I agree with Chris about avoiding overlap, I can see two 21" subs not being enough for a 1200 cap room so adding double 18's is a good option but I think I'd try to dedicate the 21's to infra sub "effects" only if they are capable.
On the surface of it it sounds like an interesting project but I'm not sure you will achieve much of an upgrade. Reason being is you are replacing very good drivers and cabs with different very good drivers and cabs and that alone won't have much effect, the real magic happens with the processing and it isn't trivial to roll your own. For example the published response for the SP225-6 shows highend mostly flat out to almost 20khz, that simply isn't possible from a large voice coil CD without a pretty substantial boost and sure enough the JBL processing includes a 7dB boost from 8.3khz.
Now I can see some benefit from moving away from standard double 15 PA cabs to something that is more of a true point source.. maybe something coaxial loaded or even a unity/synergy horn, that should both look and sound more coherent and also reduce pattern overlap if properly deployed.
As for subs I agree with Chris about avoiding overlap, I can see two 21" subs not being enough for a 1200 cap room so adding double 18's is a good option but I think I'd try to dedicate the 21's to infra sub "effects" only if they are capable.
....“I was torn between going for a fully horn-loaded system, or a bass reflex system. I do like the more hi-fi sound of Reflex,”.....
This statement makes it sound like you are “cooking for yourself”. That’s Ok if it’s your money and your personal play toy but if this is a for profit venue that does not have a reputation for bad sound that keeps people from coming, you will be bleeding the bottom line for your own pleasure and that does not make good business sense.
2405’s wont throw past 30 feet at PA levels if that, you will never even hear them.
Does the existing system have adequate LF?
Barry.
This statement makes it sound like you are “cooking for yourself”. That’s Ok if it’s your money and your personal play toy but if this is a for profit venue that does not have a reputation for bad sound that keeps people from coming, you will be bleeding the bottom line for your own pleasure and that does not make good business sense.
2405’s wont throw past 30 feet at PA levels if that, you will never even hear them.
Does the existing system have adequate LF?
Barry.
2x Adamson T21: 33-90hz
4x double 18": 40-90hz
4x double 15" : 80hz-800hz
4x mid/hi horn: 800hz-10khz
4x JBL 2405: 8khz-up
Here is how ours is set up 21” 28-70hz,18” 65-115hz, 15”110-23/40esh, 10”230hz-3000khz and 1”com-drive does upwards , you end up with a fiveway system
You can get two Dsp’s or a4champ with built-in Dsp to run your 21-18” cabs
4x double 18": 40-90hz
4x double 15" : 80hz-800hz
4x mid/hi horn: 800hz-10khz
4x JBL 2405: 8khz-up
Here is how ours is set up 21” 28-70hz,18” 65-115hz, 15”110-23/40esh, 10”230hz-3000khz and 1”com-drive does upwards , you end up with a fiveway system
You can get two Dsp’s or a4champ with built-in Dsp to run your 21-18” cabs
Thanks for your replies.
Forgot to mention the events will be around 500-700 people, with a dancefloor space of 30ft x 40ft (total venue floor space is close to 2000sq.ft but we will be focusing the dancefloor on a 1200 sq. ft. area in the middle of the room.)
Keep in mind this is NOT for PA applications and is meant as a 4-point system. (I know and you guys would be right stating it: a PA-style config would likely perform better and reducing lobing and other artifacts, but there is also a question of vibe and space transformation. Bottom line is it is important to be able to create a dancefloor in a smaller area in the middle of the room.
@conanski it is very true I could use 4x Sp-225-6 but as it is, they are flown on both sides of the stage and would need to rig everything back up after an event requiring the use of a 4-point system. I am therefore looking for something I can deploy independently of the existing PA.
-The engineer assisting me with the system (he takes care of design and system tuning at many local clubs and venues that sound truly formidable) suggests to actually leverage these overlapping frequencies by tuning the subs to work together, from what I understand the other plan he has is to use the double 21s as an infrabass extension for effect as suggested by conanski above.
-I was hoping the 18’s would provide tighter and punchier LF extension at a closer proximity to the dancefloor. The existing 2x double 21 sound great and provide ample LF power, they are however slower and not as tight as the double 18s. As we already own them and they are gathering dust, I was hoping to put them to use.
-You are right about lobing and this is something I’m worried about. Perhaps I need to go for a single 15” that has more power handling and would likely achieve similar results without the lobing?
-I am familiar with Danley systems, have used the TH-118 and the SH60 on quite a few occasions as well as the SH96. Remarkable speakers, but out of budget for the ‘phase 1’ of this system’s existence. Building a DIY synergy horn is tempting but is something that requires more research and iterations than I have time for at this point. Any other ideas welcome.
-Why would you absolutely need a cone midrange for a 4-way system? I’m told we could also avoid it by having a 12” provide from 90hz to 3khz and thus cover almost the entire vocal range with a single cone, what do you guys think about this one? I know it seems like a stretch but I’ve heard it done very very successfully.
Funny you should mention the Alpha, one of the systems our engineer takes care of is composed of Nexo Alpha E and Alpha E-M. Great rig and definitely one of my references.
I can figure out what they did: double 18” Reflex Bass, horn-loaded single 15” mid, horn loaded 10” mid and HF CD horn that doubles as phase plug on the 10". That said I was hoping you could provide more insight that could help me understand why they did it this way.
Also, if I do decide to go with the JBL double 15 PA cabs on top of the JBL double 18” subs (and can figure out a way to integrate it with the venue’s existing 2x double 21s). I would like to investigate the HF module a little more.
I have considered the BMS 4592 or keeping the 8x JBL 2447J I already have and mating them to a different horn.
This could either be a larger horn that meets the 15” or something with a dedicated Mid driver + HF horn. I was looking at that JBL PT waveguide + drivers I mentioned: https://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/AM6200_64.pdf.
Anything along those lines to recommend? If I had the $, it would something akin to a Nexo Alpha E M (10”+CD) or a Danley SM60M.
Thanks!
Forgot to mention the events will be around 500-700 people, with a dancefloor space of 30ft x 40ft (total venue floor space is close to 2000sq.ft but we will be focusing the dancefloor on a 1200 sq. ft. area in the middle of the room.)
Keep in mind this is NOT for PA applications and is meant as a 4-point system. (I know and you guys would be right stating it: a PA-style config would likely perform better and reducing lobing and other artifacts, but there is also a question of vibe and space transformation. Bottom line is it is important to be able to create a dancefloor in a smaller area in the middle of the room.
@conanski it is very true I could use 4x Sp-225-6 but as it is, they are flown on both sides of the stage and would need to rig everything back up after an event requiring the use of a 4-point system. I am therefore looking for something I can deploy independently of the existing PA.
-The engineer assisting me with the system (he takes care of design and system tuning at many local clubs and venues that sound truly formidable) suggests to actually leverage these overlapping frequencies by tuning the subs to work together, from what I understand the other plan he has is to use the double 21s as an infrabass extension for effect as suggested by conanski above.
-I was hoping the 18’s would provide tighter and punchier LF extension at a closer proximity to the dancefloor. The existing 2x double 21 sound great and provide ample LF power, they are however slower and not as tight as the double 18s. As we already own them and they are gathering dust, I was hoping to put them to use.
-You are right about lobing and this is something I’m worried about. Perhaps I need to go for a single 15” that has more power handling and would likely achieve similar results without the lobing?
-I am familiar with Danley systems, have used the TH-118 and the SH60 on quite a few occasions as well as the SH96. Remarkable speakers, but out of budget for the ‘phase 1’ of this system’s existence. Building a DIY synergy horn is tempting but is something that requires more research and iterations than I have time for at this point. Any other ideas welcome.
-Why would you absolutely need a cone midrange for a 4-way system? I’m told we could also avoid it by having a 12” provide from 90hz to 3khz and thus cover almost the entire vocal range with a single cone, what do you guys think about this one? I know it seems like a stretch but I’ve heard it done very very successfully.
Funny you should mention the Alpha, one of the systems our engineer takes care of is composed of Nexo Alpha E and Alpha E-M. Great rig and definitely one of my references.
I can figure out what they did: double 18” Reflex Bass, horn-loaded single 15” mid, horn loaded 10” mid and HF CD horn that doubles as phase plug on the 10". That said I was hoping you could provide more insight that could help me understand why they did it this way.
Also, if I do decide to go with the JBL double 15 PA cabs on top of the JBL double 18” subs (and can figure out a way to integrate it with the venue’s existing 2x double 21s). I would like to investigate the HF module a little more.
I have considered the BMS 4592 or keeping the 8x JBL 2447J I already have and mating them to a different horn.
This could either be a larger horn that meets the 15” or something with a dedicated Mid driver + HF horn. I was looking at that JBL PT waveguide + drivers I mentioned: https://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/AM6200_64.pdf.
Anything along those lines to recommend? If I had the $, it would something akin to a Nexo Alpha E M (10”+CD) or a Danley SM60M.
Thanks!
Some thoughts...
- If the 21"s aren't as "tight" as the 18"s, then you need to work on the crossover to the next range. The motor on good 21" units is more than enough to control the cone, so the only reason for "slow" bass is poor integration.
- A 12" cone shouldn't be asked to go to 3kHz. The output will be a laserbeam up there.
- Nexo Alpha (the full size one, which is a good step up from the smaller version) achieves the following:
1 - dispersion control to a usefully low frequency
2 - Decent LF output
3 - Decent sound quality
From the top, it's a large-format compression driver which means plenty of output, and you can use a usefully low crossover to the midrange units (it's not specified, but I'd say in the 1-2kHz range) which are a pair of horn-loaded 10"s. A pair of 10"s in a midrange horn will have lots of output, but will be limited to around 200Hz at the bottom end, and 2kHz at the top end. 200Hz is too high for a 2x18" subwoofer, so there's a horn-loaded 15" to fill in 200Hz-80Hz (ie, handles the "kick in the chest" feeling) while the 2x18"s can cover 30Hz-80Hz.
Now, the midrange driver here is covering a wide bandwidth - 200Hz-2kHz. That's definitely the job of a cone midrange driver - no compression driver will do that.
IME, it's always best to reduce the number of crossover frequencies where possible, and having subs with "overlap" doesn't sit well. Let's say there's a bass drop where the bass starts at 100Hz and sweeps downwards. Once it gets below the range of your 2x18"s, it'll get significantly quieter as the 21"s struggle to keep up.
Chris
- If the 21"s aren't as "tight" as the 18"s, then you need to work on the crossover to the next range. The motor on good 21" units is more than enough to control the cone, so the only reason for "slow" bass is poor integration.
- A 12" cone shouldn't be asked to go to 3kHz. The output will be a laserbeam up there.
- Nexo Alpha (the full size one, which is a good step up from the smaller version) achieves the following:
1 - dispersion control to a usefully low frequency
2 - Decent LF output
3 - Decent sound quality
From the top, it's a large-format compression driver which means plenty of output, and you can use a usefully low crossover to the midrange units (it's not specified, but I'd say in the 1-2kHz range) which are a pair of horn-loaded 10"s. A pair of 10"s in a midrange horn will have lots of output, but will be limited to around 200Hz at the bottom end, and 2kHz at the top end. 200Hz is too high for a 2x18" subwoofer, so there's a horn-loaded 15" to fill in 200Hz-80Hz (ie, handles the "kick in the chest" feeling) while the 2x18"s can cover 30Hz-80Hz.
Now, the midrange driver here is covering a wide bandwidth - 200Hz-2kHz. That's definitely the job of a cone midrange driver - no compression driver will do that.
IME, it's always best to reduce the number of crossover frequencies where possible, and having subs with "overlap" doesn't sit well. Let's say there's a bass drop where the bass starts at 100Hz and sweeps downwards. Once it gets below the range of your 2x18"s, it'll get significantly quieter as the 21"s struggle to keep up.
Chris
Overlapping crossover frequencies isn't bad by itself. The idea is to increase efficiency over a frequency band where 2 ways can work in phase (by "coupling"). That is where the problems start: To get the phase right, you' d need FIR filters. (Mr. Butterworth, Linkwitz etc. just won't cut it.) But those FIR filters need some 1000s of taps in order to have any stopband attenuation steepness / selectivity in the low frequency range at all. 1000s of taps filters are a major hassle to implement and they willl cause significant signal delay, what is not acceptable in live sound.
The classic Richard Long dance club systems ran overlapping low and top end coverage.
The full range triamp system ran 2 x 15 inches 40 to 250 hz. (Emerald back scoops, EAW BH 500)
Then 12 inch horn loaded low mid 250 hz up to 1200 hz. (EAW with RCF cones)
The mid range horn 1200 hz and up (JBL 2440, 2441, 2445 / JBL 2395, 2360 horns)
JBL tweeters (2402, 2405, Gauss 1502) on a separate gain control 7khz up overlapped the top end
The big 2 x 18 Levan hyperbolic expansion bass horns were run on a 20 to 100 hz separate gain control. Custom Eminince drivers. ( EAW 882 with mouth kit)
Slighly smaller systems like the award winning Paradise Garage ran their 15s up to 800 hz then crossed over to big JBL mouth horns, no 12s back then. I was fortunate to work with Richard on a couple of his last clubs - a creative mind gone before his time....
All the old school JBL drivers and horns have sky rocketed in price the last few years, anything on Ebay goes quickly, except those above the price curve. Ocassionally some of Richard’s custom boxes show up and a couple of builders offer Levan bass horns
The full range triamp system ran 2 x 15 inches 40 to 250 hz. (Emerald back scoops, EAW BH 500)
Then 12 inch horn loaded low mid 250 hz up to 1200 hz. (EAW with RCF cones)
The mid range horn 1200 hz and up (JBL 2440, 2441, 2445 / JBL 2395, 2360 horns)
JBL tweeters (2402, 2405, Gauss 1502) on a separate gain control 7khz up overlapped the top end
The big 2 x 18 Levan hyperbolic expansion bass horns were run on a 20 to 100 hz separate gain control. Custom Eminince drivers. ( EAW 882 with mouth kit)
Slighly smaller systems like the award winning Paradise Garage ran their 15s up to 800 hz then crossed over to big JBL mouth horns, no 12s back then. I was fortunate to work with Richard on a couple of his last clubs - a creative mind gone before his time....
All the old school JBL drivers and horns have sky rocketed in price the last few years, anything on Ebay goes quickly, except those above the price curve. Ocassionally some of Richard’s custom boxes show up and a couple of builders offer Levan bass horns
Last edited:
Thanks to everyone who chimed in, I have taken a few resolutions in an effort to keep the system costs down as much as possible for it’s first iteration. Please don’t think I’m discarding anyone’s opinion if I diverge from recommendations here, I still have a week or two before I need to start building boxes for the 2x15”. I also have ran some tests on an SEOS 30 2” throat waveguide using JBL 2447h and BMS 4592ND. The expensive option being truly outstanding (I already have 8x of the 2447’s, they are loud and a bit harsh but it works)
Regarding LF, still aiming to cover about 40-80hz with the 4x JBL double 18” reflex. I need to test and measure it but some knowledgeable folks who know the system have suggested the 2x Adamson’s 25hz-40hz output should be plenty enough to keep up with 4x double 18” playing 40-80hz. On paper that might make sense for the rated -10db 30hz-36hz, does anyone else believes the T-21’s 25-30hz range could be between -10 and -15db? The other option (preferred by my engineer anyway) is to tune both 18” and 21” boxes between 25hz and 90hz with careful phase alignment through FIR filters.
Regarding Low-Mid: I recently got to hear old and beat up Martin 115’s. The very same day I stumbled upon an classifieds add for 8x of these. Sadly I haven’t heard back from the seller but that got me thinking a front loaded horn could be a fun way of using the 12x 2226h drivers I have on hand. Looking for some opinions about 15” front loaded mid bass, based on the plan I now have for the mid/hi section:
The mid/hi section was originally planned to be a horn-loaded 2-way box/waveguide. If the kick bins end up being reflex, having those 15”s only play a narrow band and not have to reach a horn somewhere between 700hz and 1200hz will help maintain pistonic behaviour and clean up distortion. The BMS 4592 rolling off at around 500hz in that waveguide is surprisingly clean at high levels. It cleans up the 15”s a lot as well.
Another plan aimed at narrowing the passband of 15” drivers was triggered by the following thread: SEOS 30 synergy
I’ve been thinking about trying my hand at building a 2-way synergy horn with pattern control down to 300hz (as per Bill Walsh’s syncalc spreadsheet that is around 28in mouth width, about the same as an SEO30). I’m more interested in a synergy build from scratch, cutting these panels and testing multiple slots and throats using the CNC router and a 3D printer is a challenge I’d like to tackle, I will spend time at the workshop when I receive the BMS4550 and 2x Pyle PMDR8 I ordered and let you guys know how that goes.
Now that I have short and long-term solutions for 300hz and up, what should I be looking into for the 15”? Ideally, it’s something that works well (temporarily) with the JBL 2226 and reaches at least 350hz comfortably. A front loaded horn like an EAW BH853 seems like a good choice being a more modern approach to older designs like the JBL 4550/4560 and Altec 816/817. These EAW are rare though, I’d love to hear if someone knows of a similar design that has plans available? I would steer clear of other horn loaded designs as few reach up that high and the 2226H I need to work with for now are ill-suited for horn loading other than FLH.
Once again, the ‘back up’ solution is to build something like the B&C 215 enclosure, tuned higher by box volume or port mods. I could then eventually upgrade the drivers to something like B&C 15TBX100 in a year when I upgrade the double 18" to B&C loaded horns but the same could be done to a double 15" FLH
Regarding LF, still aiming to cover about 40-80hz with the 4x JBL double 18” reflex. I need to test and measure it but some knowledgeable folks who know the system have suggested the 2x Adamson’s 25hz-40hz output should be plenty enough to keep up with 4x double 18” playing 40-80hz. On paper that might make sense for the rated -10db 30hz-36hz, does anyone else believes the T-21’s 25-30hz range could be between -10 and -15db? The other option (preferred by my engineer anyway) is to tune both 18” and 21” boxes between 25hz and 90hz with careful phase alignment through FIR filters.
Regarding Low-Mid: I recently got to hear old and beat up Martin 115’s. The very same day I stumbled upon an classifieds add for 8x of these. Sadly I haven’t heard back from the seller but that got me thinking a front loaded horn could be a fun way of using the 12x 2226h drivers I have on hand. Looking for some opinions about 15” front loaded mid bass, based on the plan I now have for the mid/hi section:
The mid/hi section was originally planned to be a horn-loaded 2-way box/waveguide. If the kick bins end up being reflex, having those 15”s only play a narrow band and not have to reach a horn somewhere between 700hz and 1200hz will help maintain pistonic behaviour and clean up distortion. The BMS 4592 rolling off at around 500hz in that waveguide is surprisingly clean at high levels. It cleans up the 15”s a lot as well.
Another plan aimed at narrowing the passband of 15” drivers was triggered by the following thread: SEOS 30 synergy
I’ve been thinking about trying my hand at building a 2-way synergy horn with pattern control down to 300hz (as per Bill Walsh’s syncalc spreadsheet that is around 28in mouth width, about the same as an SEO30). I’m more interested in a synergy build from scratch, cutting these panels and testing multiple slots and throats using the CNC router and a 3D printer is a challenge I’d like to tackle, I will spend time at the workshop when I receive the BMS4550 and 2x Pyle PMDR8 I ordered and let you guys know how that goes.
Now that I have short and long-term solutions for 300hz and up, what should I be looking into for the 15”? Ideally, it’s something that works well (temporarily) with the JBL 2226 and reaches at least 350hz comfortably. A front loaded horn like an EAW BH853 seems like a good choice being a more modern approach to older designs like the JBL 4550/4560 and Altec 816/817. These EAW are rare though, I’d love to hear if someone knows of a similar design that has plans available? I would steer clear of other horn loaded designs as few reach up that high and the 2226H I need to work with for now are ill-suited for horn loading other than FLH.
Once again, the ‘back up’ solution is to build something like the B&C 215 enclosure, tuned higher by box volume or port mods. I could then eventually upgrade the drivers to something like B&C 15TBX100 in a year when I upgrade the double 18" to B&C loaded horns but the same could be done to a double 15" FLH
Last edited:
JBL 2226 loaded B&C Sub 15 build
Hi all, I'm looking to build ported boxes for JBL 2226H drivers.
I've narrowed down my search to B&C Sub 15. I want the flexibility of single 15" for modularity and transport ease. This is for a 4-way reflex system processed with BSS Blu-100 and built around 12x 2226H, 8x 2242H in JBL SP128s (eventually to be rebuilt). The top end currently is from 4x JBL 2380 horns & 2447J drivers (800hz-8kHz) + Beyma CP-21F (8kHz-20kHz). I'm currently building DIY synergy horns from BMS 4550 + Pyle PMDR5 using Bill Walso's SynergyCalc so the 2226's will eventually only play up to about 500hz.
I'm looking at the possibility of tuning the B&C sub 15 by either internal volume reduction or port length tuning, since the subs are usually ran from 25Hz to 80Hz with good results when crossing to JBL SP215-9 (2226H+2447J). From experience, I am enclined to think the 2226 should play flat from 80hz-800hz which I'm unsure if the current design for the B&C sub 15 would allow. What do you think? Would it seem optimal to shift the design's tuning from 40Hz up to about 60Hz? Would this help in any way or should I give the current port design a shot and simply aim to adjust volume with lining? I've played around in WinSD but im unable to share simulations at the moment, I'm a bit rusty. In the meantime and if it can avoid me any unnecessary modifications that could hurt the design more than help it, any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
Current:
4x JBL SP128s double 2242H 18": 30-80hz
4x JBL SP215-9 (2226 LF only): 80hz-800hz
4x JBL 2447J mid/hi horn: 800hz-8khz
4x JBL 2405: 8khz-up
Upgraded:
4x double 2242H 18": 30-80hz
12x single 2226 15": 80hz-500hz
4x 500hz Synergy horns: 500hz-20khz
Thanks!
Hi all, I'm looking to build ported boxes for JBL 2226H drivers.
I've narrowed down my search to B&C Sub 15. I want the flexibility of single 15" for modularity and transport ease. This is for a 4-way reflex system processed with BSS Blu-100 and built around 12x 2226H, 8x 2242H in JBL SP128s (eventually to be rebuilt). The top end currently is from 4x JBL 2380 horns & 2447J drivers (800hz-8kHz) + Beyma CP-21F (8kHz-20kHz). I'm currently building DIY synergy horns from BMS 4550 + Pyle PMDR5 using Bill Walso's SynergyCalc so the 2226's will eventually only play up to about 500hz.
I'm looking at the possibility of tuning the B&C sub 15 by either internal volume reduction or port length tuning, since the subs are usually ran from 25Hz to 80Hz with good results when crossing to JBL SP215-9 (2226H+2447J). From experience, I am enclined to think the 2226 should play flat from 80hz-800hz which I'm unsure if the current design for the B&C sub 15 would allow. What do you think? Would it seem optimal to shift the design's tuning from 40Hz up to about 60Hz? Would this help in any way or should I give the current port design a shot and simply aim to adjust volume with lining? I've played around in WinSD but im unable to share simulations at the moment, I'm a bit rusty. In the meantime and if it can avoid me any unnecessary modifications that could hurt the design more than help it, any guidance would be greatly appreciated.
Current:
4x JBL SP128s double 2242H 18": 30-80hz
4x JBL SP215-9 (2226 LF only): 80hz-800hz
4x JBL 2447J mid/hi horn: 800hz-8khz
4x JBL 2405: 8khz-up
Upgraded:
4x double 2242H 18": 30-80hz
12x single 2226 15": 80hz-500hz
4x 500hz Synergy horns: 500hz-20khz
Thanks!
Sounds like a kick *** system and I'd like to see more about your synergy build. The 2226 is a great swiss army knife driver.. does it all well, but you don't need a sub box for a driver that will never produce those frequencies.. something tuned to 60-70hz would do. Have you tried modelling it in WinISD or some other program? The quick sim I did suggests it only needs a little over 2 cu/ft(60l) for this use.
@ Guillaume Mays - it’s against the Forum Rules to start multiple threads on the same topic/project, your threads have been merged.Thanks conanski,
Having issues running winSD on my Mac via virtual machine, but I'll try bootcamp. I should be able to sim it and share sims with you guys soon.
The Sub 15 is a little bit deeper than my 2x18 sub so I might be looking at reducing depth from 736mm to 572mm. This would bring internal volume down from 183L to 145L. Then I need to figure out how this modification affects the port area and length. I believe this would get me pretty close to 60hz with the port as-is but needs to be simmed.
Apologies for not providing an update, these past couple weeks have seen many advancements, both in short term system design (using what I have) and the above boxes Dmorrison came through with. I need to figure out my measurement situation at the moment (taking recs, dayton EMM-6?) but an engineer will give me a hand with measuring it Wednesday, so we'll learn more then. I can't help but realize I might be better off sticking with a tuning that resembles a bit more the JBL 215-9 I just borrowed the horn/driver and crossover from to test real quick. In practice, the port unloads with such dramatic effect that the cab really can't hold it's own if used as a stand alone sub. We will once again know more on Wednesday when I feed it from the BLU-100 and get to listen to it with a sub. Something could also be amiss with the build or design, but feeding it a sine wave sounds like a healthy loading of the port at just about 50hz just very odd to hear it so high for such a large box, hard to tell what's going on there without the measurements.
About the build itself, I modified the bracing dave already added, but reaching all the way to the front panel and some detail cutouts with the CNC, trying to preserve structural integrity and additional cross bracing. I wanted to get as close as possible to the real deal to iron out any kinks ahead of the full build out, so we went ahead with rabet joints and made some handles out of wood, again adding to the lateral rigidity with one sheet of 9mm and one 18mm, carving out the inside of the handle for more room.
The port is removable and could be replaced with another length port. Would a rather radical tuning change be possible just by altering the length of the port and internal volume?. It sits on an additional lip and is held in place firmly by lateral pressure and some light-duty putty for a seal. I wanted to have the option of tuning it more precisely with wadding and extending port length if I want to change the purpose of the box further down the road, I think that might be from the get go instead. Do you see any upside to tuning to around 50hz rather than around 35hz when used as a kick bin? The crossover will already clean up the passband, so I don't really now what I was hoping i'd gain. I'm considering keeping the tuning higher and adding some diagonal plain bracing inside to change the internal shape to trapezoidal, so as to gain back the qualities this shape and a smaller internal volume has upper on upper frequencies. There is also no wadding or stuffing yet, looking for suggestions as to what kind of high quality materials are out there for this purpose.
Here's the WIP, rough sanded build and a few pictures of the process:
About the build itself, I modified the bracing dave already added, but reaching all the way to the front panel and some detail cutouts with the CNC, trying to preserve structural integrity and additional cross bracing. I wanted to get as close as possible to the real deal to iron out any kinks ahead of the full build out, so we went ahead with rabet joints and made some handles out of wood, again adding to the lateral rigidity with one sheet of 9mm and one 18mm, carving out the inside of the handle for more room.
The port is removable and could be replaced with another length port. Would a rather radical tuning change be possible just by altering the length of the port and internal volume?. It sits on an additional lip and is held in place firmly by lateral pressure and some light-duty putty for a seal. I wanted to have the option of tuning it more precisely with wadding and extending port length if I want to change the purpose of the box further down the road, I think that might be from the get go instead. Do you see any upside to tuning to around 50hz rather than around 35hz when used as a kick bin? The crossover will already clean up the passband, so I don't really now what I was hoping i'd gain. I'm considering keeping the tuning higher and adding some diagonal plain bracing inside to change the internal shape to trapezoidal, so as to gain back the qualities this shape and a smaller internal volume has upper on upper frequencies. There is also no wadding or stuffing yet, looking for suggestions as to what kind of high quality materials are out there for this purpose.
Here's the WIP, rough sanded build and a few pictures of the process:
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.