This inquiry may be unusual and I have no experience with event sound systems. So I'm hoping members here can point me in the right direction.
We are developing a 45 minute show that would involve playing a 30 minute sound track and speech. The events would be outdoor fairs. Our audiences would range around 60 people most likely in a double bleacher setting with some standing by. The catch : our sound track has to be heard over a chainsaw running.
This is a trial venture for us with hopes it will take off. So we are looking to keep initial costs low and upgrade equipment if successful. But we need to ensure the initial equipment will work for our first year trial. If all goes as we hope, there will be 24 bookings with three 45minute shows per booking.
I apologize for the long winded description of our application. Our first thought was to go with two Gemini as-15blu speakers on stands ( the Bluetooth connection is required for both soundtrack and mic). Second thought is to go with two Pile Pro PPHP1237UB speakers. Will either of these put out what we require? Will they need an amp or do the job on their own?
Thank you for the help, Rob.
We are developing a 45 minute show that would involve playing a 30 minute sound track and speech. The events would be outdoor fairs. Our audiences would range around 60 people most likely in a double bleacher setting with some standing by. The catch : our sound track has to be heard over a chainsaw running.
This is a trial venture for us with hopes it will take off. So we are looking to keep initial costs low and upgrade equipment if successful. But we need to ensure the initial equipment will work for our first year trial. If all goes as we hope, there will be 24 bookings with three 45minute shows per booking.
I apologize for the long winded description of our application. Our first thought was to go with two Gemini as-15blu speakers on stands ( the Bluetooth connection is required for both soundtrack and mic). Second thought is to go with two Pile Pro PPHP1237UB speakers. Will either of these put out what we require? Will they need an amp or do the job on their own?
Thank you for the help, Rob.
3 things.
Don't operate a real chainsaw at the event, record or otherwise obtain a sound clip of a saw and mix it with the live speaking to get the correct balance, the saw can then just be a prop. A real chainsaw is VERY loud, the speakers you would need to get vocals over top of that are expensive and the resulting performance is going to be much too loud for most people.
Buy 1 better quality speaker instead of 2 pieces of junk, pyle and gemini are junk. These things will break down on you and these boxes have no resale value. Buy a single Yamaha DXR, EV EKX, JBL PRX, or similar.
Bluetooth is not a reliable communications format for streaming audio, every time I have seen this used there have been dropouts.
Don't operate a real chainsaw at the event, record or otherwise obtain a sound clip of a saw and mix it with the live speaking to get the correct balance, the saw can then just be a prop. A real chainsaw is VERY loud, the speakers you would need to get vocals over top of that are expensive and the resulting performance is going to be much too loud for most people.
Buy 1 better quality speaker instead of 2 pieces of junk, pyle and gemini are junk. These things will break down on you and these boxes have no resale value. Buy a single Yamaha DXR, EV EKX, JBL PRX, or similar.
Bluetooth is not a reliable communications format for streaming audio, every time I have seen this used there have been dropouts.
MAy I suggest you pay a professional to come in and assess your needs and suggest equipment choices.
Similarly, rent a sound system for the first time or two. WHy commit to any piece of gear without trying it? And a rental system allows you to change gear whenever you like. Once you have some idea what you are doing, you will be better armed to chose for purchase.
And I really like turk's idea of a gobo to block sound - large plexi barriers you see through but not hear so much. The less saw noise you have to fight, the better.
Just my opinion, but both Gemini and Pyle are brands I consider "cheap". But that aside, you need to look at a system, not piecemeal bits. I don't think in terms of hey, lets try this speaker, and next week, how about this amp? When you are asking things like is 500 watts enough? TOo much? or 350? or 2000? I think you are concentrating on a detail instead of the big picture. That brings me back to paying someone to look/advise/suggest/analyze your needs.
Similarly, rent a sound system for the first time or two. WHy commit to any piece of gear without trying it? And a rental system allows you to change gear whenever you like. Once you have some idea what you are doing, you will be better armed to chose for purchase.
And I really like turk's idea of a gobo to block sound - large plexi barriers you see through but not hear so much. The less saw noise you have to fight, the better.
Just my opinion, but both Gemini and Pyle are brands I consider "cheap". But that aside, you need to look at a system, not piecemeal bits. I don't think in terms of hey, lets try this speaker, and next week, how about this amp? When you are asking things like is 500 watts enough? TOo much? or 350? or 2000? I think you are concentrating on a detail instead of the big picture. That brings me back to paying someone to look/advise/suggest/analyze your needs.
Funny you mentioned this video. It came up when researching to see if anyone had attempted our idea. But no, this isn't what we are heading for.
i got say i got excited about this "presentation" and was picturing full staging, rigging and roof structure, a jumbotrom screen several Mac Spots handling lighting duties, a high quality uhf wireless mic you know ....the right stuff.....
so 60 people you say in bleachers?
sounds like a job for Art's Syntrip P's if your into DIY
or find a quad of used Turbosound Tms 3's and amps to go with it place them on an 8 foot high scaffold a nice mixer for front end and there you go you can cover a 500 person event with enough clean SPL to match a CHAINSAW!
so 60 people you say in bleachers?
sounds like a job for Art's Syntrip P's if your into DIY
or find a quad of used Turbosound Tms 3's and amps to go with it place them on an 8 foot high scaffold a nice mixer for front end and there you go you can cover a 500 person event with enough clean SPL to match a CHAINSAW!
sorry that was just me remembering things from from my touring days, was with the PA crew for several of there Canadian dates and yeah the saw was live so i know what sort of SPL levels are involved just sharing related experience with what your doing.
Thanks everyone for the input. I am looking at some noise deterrent for the saw. Some thoughts have been modified saws with sound deflection on the mufflers, crowd setback with sound system and project show to an outdoor screen. It may be that we will need to rent a few different setups and test before investing. And here I thought the hard part was going to be the licensing. That just took a couple phone calls!
I certainly appreciate the first hand input regarding this. There's not a lot of ventures down this road to go by. To be honest if we pull it off I believe we will be the first in our field to do a production like this.
That's an interesting line of thought. At the same time though there's another 3000 attending the grounds that we'd love to pull in and have the event hosts scrambling to set up more bleachers.
ok so, the target audience is? people attending a fair?outdoor sportsman type show? are there any other noise sources like tractor pulls or carnival ride music etc to contend with?
and i know you said this is to promote a wood carving event? so is it a contest? is it sponsored by a manufacturer to promote interest in there product?
now i'm picturing a 24 foot rigging platform with 8 TMS 3's per side as start point for a potential audience of 3000 (we will win them all over and mesmerize them!)
and i know you said this is to promote a wood carving event? so is it a contest? is it sponsored by a manufacturer to promote interest in there product?
now i'm picturing a 24 foot rigging platform with 8 TMS 3's per side as start point for a potential audience of 3000 (we will win them all over and mesmerize them!)
I love the fact that members here are getting pumped about what this "could be made to be". I knew my comment of hoping to draw the entire fair attendance could cause confusion wondering what's the intended audience size actually. The reality is I dream big and although I can't jump straight to the "big show" I do drive towards it.
Currently we do shows all across Ontario and do well at drawing in crowds up to 60 or so at a time. Right now it's a small team production with one equipment manager, one carver and one crowd pumper. The sound track is complex since it is suited to our audience mix (rock, upbeat country and children). It's also matched and timed to the carvings being done. Other than the saw noise the other fair noise isn't an issue to contend with. Our set ups are usually set away from other entertainment because of the noise from our saws. With all this said I'm certainly all for growing the venture if it takes as I invision
Throwing this out there, what's the thoughts this might work with room to expand? I mean no insults if this isn't any better that I initially inquired about. I have the knowledge to hook a system up but honestly couldn't tell you one speaker from another. So this could be still low end for the application.
Behringer PMP980S 900 Watt 10 Channel Powered Mixer w/Dual/Multi-FX - 2 - Behringer Eurolive VP1520 1000-Watt 2-Way 15inch Passive Speakers - 2 - Peavey Speaker Stands
Behringer PMP980S 900 Watt 10 Channel Powered Mixer w/Dual/Multi-FX - 2 - Behringer Eurolive VP1520 1000-Watt 2-Way 15inch Passive Speakers - 2 - Peavey Speaker Stands
Amplifiers can be separate, or they can be part of the mixer, or they can be in the speakers. We call those powered speakers. If you have a mixer feeding powered speakers, you can then chose larger or smaller powered speakers to tailor your system to the event. You can also just add more speakers as the need arises.
I have setup similar systems under similar high background noise situations and found a different way to do it, using more "humble", available everyday components.
I took advantage of SPL dropping 6dB for each distance doubling, at least for point sources ... which the chainsaw is.
What you are currently trying to do is set up the "demonstration bench" or wherever the chainsaw is being used at, say, 6 meters in front of the (small) crowd, then set speakers in the same line, to right and left of gthe chainsaw, so they end up being *more* than 6 meters away (basic Geometry) .
In that case, yes, you will need HUGE SPL oozing from those speakers, enough to match and beatb the noisy chainsaw ... a tall order.
What I did was *surround* people with speakers, real close, and obviously focusing sound in the inside of that semi-circle, SPL inside that area rises *dramatically* , both Physical measurable SPL and for Psychoacoustics reasons, we hear better what is close by.
By the same mechanism we can hold a conversation with somebody sitting at our table in a very noisy Restaurant.
I used a line of 2 to 4 wedge floor monitors 1 or 1.5 meters in front of the front seats, and two large loud PA cabinets , 2 meters right and left of seats, pointing to the "center of mass" of the crowd ... sound inside was scary loud, articulate, and beat very loud noise coming from "outside", as long as it´s, as I suggested , some 6 meters away which is fine for your demo.
I guess you don´t want people covered in wood chips, do you?
I had originally used a similar "short distance" based system for the Moscow Circus, many years ago.
They had visited Buenos Aires after many years and brought minimal equipment and no tents, thinking they would flop ... they became a raging success and had to go on Tour all over the Country renting local Circuses tents, trucks, etc. , no time to ship the heavy equipment from Russia.
They assembled a HUGE 3 ring tent, 90 meters long by 45 meters wide ... held a lot of people but "no sound system covered it" as needed, think a Sports Stadium under (3) tents.
Plus they played massive Cossack choirs (on tape), and 1812 Overture cannon in some acts, they needed a LOUD and clean system which to boot could not obstruct people´s view.
I used narrow long sound columns hanging from the structure, one every 5 meters, each one some 5 meters above people´s heads, plus subwoofers under the seats.
Sound was loud, crystal clear, and people jumped in their seats with cannon blasts.
Yet Clowns o Magicians or anybody inside the rings could speak in a natural voice, no feedback whatsoever.
Distance is a problem in PA systems, but sometimes can be used to advantage.
EDIT:no need to commit $$$ on this yet, you can rent those PA components (wedge floor monitors and a couple full size cabinets), set it up once like I suggested, with chainsaw, people, the real deal, and give it a try.
Then you decide.
I took advantage of SPL dropping 6dB for each distance doubling, at least for point sources ... which the chainsaw is.
What you are currently trying to do is set up the "demonstration bench" or wherever the chainsaw is being used at, say, 6 meters in front of the (small) crowd, then set speakers in the same line, to right and left of gthe chainsaw, so they end up being *more* than 6 meters away (basic Geometry) .
In that case, yes, you will need HUGE SPL oozing from those speakers, enough to match and beatb the noisy chainsaw ... a tall order.
What I did was *surround* people with speakers, real close, and obviously focusing sound in the inside of that semi-circle, SPL inside that area rises *dramatically* , both Physical measurable SPL and for Psychoacoustics reasons, we hear better what is close by.
By the same mechanism we can hold a conversation with somebody sitting at our table in a very noisy Restaurant.
I used a line of 2 to 4 wedge floor monitors 1 or 1.5 meters in front of the front seats, and two large loud PA cabinets , 2 meters right and left of seats, pointing to the "center of mass" of the crowd ... sound inside was scary loud, articulate, and beat very loud noise coming from "outside", as long as it´s, as I suggested , some 6 meters away which is fine for your demo.
I guess you don´t want people covered in wood chips, do you?
I had originally used a similar "short distance" based system for the Moscow Circus, many years ago.
They had visited Buenos Aires after many years and brought minimal equipment and no tents, thinking they would flop ... they became a raging success and had to go on Tour all over the Country renting local Circuses tents, trucks, etc. , no time to ship the heavy equipment from Russia.
They assembled a HUGE 3 ring tent, 90 meters long by 45 meters wide ... held a lot of people but "no sound system covered it" as needed, think a Sports Stadium under (3) tents.
Plus they played massive Cossack choirs (on tape), and 1812 Overture cannon in some acts, they needed a LOUD and clean system which to boot could not obstruct people´s view.
I used narrow long sound columns hanging from the structure, one every 5 meters, each one some 5 meters above people´s heads, plus subwoofers under the seats.
Sound was loud, crystal clear, and people jumped in their seats with cannon blasts.
Yet Clowns o Magicians or anybody inside the rings could speak in a natural voice, no feedback whatsoever.
Distance is a problem in PA systems, but sometimes can be used to advantage.
EDIT:no need to commit $$$ on this yet, you can rent those PA components (wedge floor monitors and a couple full size cabinets), set it up once like I suggested, with chainsaw, people, the real deal, and give it a try.
Then you decide.
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