I am looking for suggestions on how to design a unique loudspeaker.
I need a unique portable sound reinforcement speaker based on a horn of around 8 inches in diameter. The device would naturally be limited in frequency range. The question is how to extend the low end below the horn cutoff. But theres more; This thing must look like some kind of novel musical instrument.
I am a musician, not a speaker buff. I was hoping that I could mine the depths to which you folks have gone into this field and come up with a few gems to get me headed in the right direction. I am new to this forum. Assume I dont know anything about speaker design.
Recently I have been playing a midi wind instrument and it is very disconcerting to not have local sound! A midi wind instrument only sends data to a synth module of some kind and using typical floor monitors on stage to hear yourself is not good! (I am using sampled sounds of trumpet, trombone, clarinet, oboe and some strings, triggered by a Yamaha wx5 midi wind instrument.)
The goal is to create a portable monitor attached to the midi wind instrument in the form of a horn. A low mid-range horn. This serves an important second function of looking as though horn like sounds should be coming from this otherwise boring looking instrument.
An audience responds to visual ques. A part of it can pass over and rest on my shoulder. Think trombone
Accurate, or should I say flat response is not critical. Coloration might even improve the sound! The audio source is not so pure and great that
it couldnt even benefit from some real world resonance, especially for horns; the speaker is now a part of the sound of the instrument, not an audiophile reproduction monitor. Since It will be carried it cant weigh too much or be too bulky. The desired frequency range is 250 Hz to say 2500 Hz preferably higher. Of course a broader range would be better.
The problem as I see it is that the low cutoff of a horn for 250 hz is about 17 inches diam. Too big!
A trombone mouth diameter of 8 inches cuts off at 540 Hz if I understand it. (How does a trombone play down to below 100 Hz?) I would like to extend the lower octave of an 8 inch horn by some tricky means that doesnt look too strange on my shoulder. A tube or two of appropriate length coming from the rear of the driver may function like the bose cannon concept, reinforcing the lower octave in waveguide fashion.
So thats my first concept; a TL or wave guide rear coming off a trombone sized horn. Another option is to use a larger driver in the mouth of the horn, say a 5 inch full range, and let the now sealed horn act as a labyrinth. I have considered even using a defunct trombone for the horn as well as some other parts. Note how small the diameter would be if I used the
curved section of a trombone tube to bring the TL back around. If anyone wants to eyeball the flare curvature of a trombone to guesstimate its sonic applicability, I can post a graphic.
Yet another option is to handle whatever frequency range the held monitor cant produce with a nearby free standing unit. I am thinking of a trombone case sized tube that would double as a case for the instrument. It would be desirable to have a range say from 80 hz to the low end of the horn, which would be around 600 Hz for the 8 inch dia I guess. It would be preferable to get the formants locally though. The ideal would be to get enough range from a single driver so that I didnt have to mess with crossovers.
So I need geometry suggestions and driver suggestions. On drivers, I was hoping to get away with less than a 4 inch driver. This thing will be slung over my shoulder...it has to look pretty slick. In fact I already ordered two Peerless 830970 2" Full Range 4 Ohm. That brings up another design option which is just to front fire both without any horn loading and try to get the tubular structure to act well enough as a labyrinth or whatever. I could imagine a cavity but no larger than an ostrich egg...
Questions that occur to me are;
Has anyone had success tying a TL to the rear of a horn?
How much can wave guides be narrowed? What benefit is flaring the end of a transmission line if its mouth is smaller than the horn cut-off? I mean to say is a larger diameter port much more efficient than a small one, given that both have a circumference much lower that the wavelength in question. Will I need a high pass filter to save the little speaker? There are so many sub forums, how can I reach interested
enthusiasts with this topic?
I think that the sound pressure levels need to be pretty high. I stand next to a full drum kit and blaring monitors. It would be ideal to achieve a spl the same as a real trumpet.
Thank you
I need a unique portable sound reinforcement speaker based on a horn of around 8 inches in diameter. The device would naturally be limited in frequency range. The question is how to extend the low end below the horn cutoff. But theres more; This thing must look like some kind of novel musical instrument.
I am a musician, not a speaker buff. I was hoping that I could mine the depths to which you folks have gone into this field and come up with a few gems to get me headed in the right direction. I am new to this forum. Assume I dont know anything about speaker design.
Recently I have been playing a midi wind instrument and it is very disconcerting to not have local sound! A midi wind instrument only sends data to a synth module of some kind and using typical floor monitors on stage to hear yourself is not good! (I am using sampled sounds of trumpet, trombone, clarinet, oboe and some strings, triggered by a Yamaha wx5 midi wind instrument.)
The goal is to create a portable monitor attached to the midi wind instrument in the form of a horn. A low mid-range horn. This serves an important second function of looking as though horn like sounds should be coming from this otherwise boring looking instrument.
An audience responds to visual ques. A part of it can pass over and rest on my shoulder. Think trombone
Accurate, or should I say flat response is not critical. Coloration might even improve the sound! The audio source is not so pure and great that
it couldnt even benefit from some real world resonance, especially for horns; the speaker is now a part of the sound of the instrument, not an audiophile reproduction monitor. Since It will be carried it cant weigh too much or be too bulky. The desired frequency range is 250 Hz to say 2500 Hz preferably higher. Of course a broader range would be better.
The problem as I see it is that the low cutoff of a horn for 250 hz is about 17 inches diam. Too big!
A trombone mouth diameter of 8 inches cuts off at 540 Hz if I understand it. (How does a trombone play down to below 100 Hz?) I would like to extend the lower octave of an 8 inch horn by some tricky means that doesnt look too strange on my shoulder. A tube or two of appropriate length coming from the rear of the driver may function like the bose cannon concept, reinforcing the lower octave in waveguide fashion.
So thats my first concept; a TL or wave guide rear coming off a trombone sized horn. Another option is to use a larger driver in the mouth of the horn, say a 5 inch full range, and let the now sealed horn act as a labyrinth. I have considered even using a defunct trombone for the horn as well as some other parts. Note how small the diameter would be if I used the
curved section of a trombone tube to bring the TL back around. If anyone wants to eyeball the flare curvature of a trombone to guesstimate its sonic applicability, I can post a graphic.
Yet another option is to handle whatever frequency range the held monitor cant produce with a nearby free standing unit. I am thinking of a trombone case sized tube that would double as a case for the instrument. It would be desirable to have a range say from 80 hz to the low end of the horn, which would be around 600 Hz for the 8 inch dia I guess. It would be preferable to get the formants locally though. The ideal would be to get enough range from a single driver so that I didnt have to mess with crossovers.
So I need geometry suggestions and driver suggestions. On drivers, I was hoping to get away with less than a 4 inch driver. This thing will be slung over my shoulder...it has to look pretty slick. In fact I already ordered two Peerless 830970 2" Full Range 4 Ohm. That brings up another design option which is just to front fire both without any horn loading and try to get the tubular structure to act well enough as a labyrinth or whatever. I could imagine a cavity but no larger than an ostrich egg...
Questions that occur to me are;
Has anyone had success tying a TL to the rear of a horn?
How much can wave guides be narrowed? What benefit is flaring the end of a transmission line if its mouth is smaller than the horn cut-off? I mean to say is a larger diameter port much more efficient than a small one, given that both have a circumference much lower that the wavelength in question. Will I need a high pass filter to save the little speaker? There are so many sub forums, how can I reach interested
enthusiasts with this topic?
I think that the sound pressure levels need to be pretty high. I stand next to a full drum kit and blaring monitors. It would be ideal to achieve a spl the same as a real trumpet.
Thank you
bjorno
Thank you. Thats very cool. Its interesting that a trombone with its very narrow pipes can hit 80 Hz at 130 DB. Maybe flapping lips are the new driver paradigm.
This geometry would be great for a floor standing bass augmentation. If I could get a good seal I could open it up like an instrument case and carry the wind instrument inside. What is your thought to specify rubber on the long section?
My original query, naive as it may be, is what would the frequency response be if you replaced the closed section with a horn of mouth diameter 20 cm driven by a rather small full range, like Peerless 830970 2", (that would project to the left if we are modifying your diagram) and then used a scaled down cross section of your TL to the right. Aiming for perhaps 200 Hz. This would be the Bose concept of rear phase addition, except the shorter of the TL legs is substituted with a horn. The idea is that I want to attach it to the instrument and carry it whilst playing....
Im curious if you compared the response of your bass design using a straight 8 inch tube of the same length....
thank you
Thank you. Thats very cool. Its interesting that a trombone with its very narrow pipes can hit 80 Hz at 130 DB. Maybe flapping lips are the new driver paradigm.
This geometry would be great for a floor standing bass augmentation. If I could get a good seal I could open it up like an instrument case and carry the wind instrument inside. What is your thought to specify rubber on the long section?
My original query, naive as it may be, is what would the frequency response be if you replaced the closed section with a horn of mouth diameter 20 cm driven by a rather small full range, like Peerless 830970 2", (that would project to the left if we are modifying your diagram) and then used a scaled down cross section of your TL to the right. Aiming for perhaps 200 Hz. This would be the Bose concept of rear phase addition, except the shorter of the TL legs is substituted with a horn. The idea is that I want to attach it to the instrument and carry it whilst playing....
Im curious if you compared the response of your bass design using a straight 8 inch tube of the same length....
thank you
I have recently tried using the pyle 40watt megaphone. I was too curious, since it had the approximate look and size of this concept. It wasnt what one would hope, although it did give an interesting immediate presence to the horn sounds. Im trying to figure out if the irritating sound is simply from the band width or irregularities in freq response, or something else. Its re-entrant. Brash is an understatement
Yes, breaking it down into pieces.....
You have to have intimate contact with the instrument youre playing on stage. Its a stressful situation, loud noises coming from everywhere. Only in concert halls do you have anything like good acoustics to play in, even then, you rely on stage monitors.
The core idea here is to have something that is actually a part of the instrument, which by itself makes no sound at all, its a synth. I could use a local monitor, but better would be something that also increases the visual impact. The instrument in question is a Yamaha wx5 and the audience is confused that big brass sounds can come from it.
I think to myself, maybe I can get an old trombone bell and fit it with a driver and now I can hear myself and it looks more interesting. But then I look at the mouth size, and mysteriously, even though a tombone plays loudly down to 80 Hz, unfortunately, a speaker of same dimensions cant. The cut-off is something like 550 hz. So how can you get an extra octave at the bottom, ragged or not? But maybe bjornos design, or something just a bit larger, that I could build as a case for the instrument and its horn...
You have to have intimate contact with the instrument youre playing on stage. Its a stressful situation, loud noises coming from everywhere. Only in concert halls do you have anything like good acoustics to play in, even then, you rely on stage monitors.
The core idea here is to have something that is actually a part of the instrument, which by itself makes no sound at all, its a synth. I could use a local monitor, but better would be something that also increases the visual impact. The instrument in question is a Yamaha wx5 and the audience is confused that big brass sounds can come from it.
I think to myself, maybe I can get an old trombone bell and fit it with a driver and now I can hear myself and it looks more interesting. But then I look at the mouth size, and mysteriously, even though a tombone plays loudly down to 80 Hz, unfortunately, a speaker of same dimensions cant. The cut-off is something like 550 hz. So how can you get an extra octave at the bottom, ragged or not? But maybe bjornos design, or something just a bit larger, that I could build as a case for the instrument and its horn...
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So I wondered, in happy ignorance, if bringing the rear wave around, in the manner of the (apparently reviled) bose acoustimass could extend the low cut-off, maybe a ragged octave, say 250 Hz. Since this is close to the lower notes of the trumpet and clarinet, it would be good enough perhaps for the purpose, in as much as the full range sound is also going into the main PA system from the synth engine.
But now Im inclined to mount a 5 or 6 inch in the mouth of the bell, and use the rear as a labyrinth. Sad to let go of the horn sensitivity and quality though.
Its amazing that you cant achieve the range and SPL with a 2 lb magnet and 50 watts as you can a pair of lips and a light tube of brass.
But now Im inclined to mount a 5 or 6 inch in the mouth of the bell, and use the rear as a labyrinth. Sad to let go of the horn sensitivity and quality though.
Its amazing that you cant achieve the range and SPL with a 2 lb magnet and 50 watts as you can a pair of lips and a light tube of brass.
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You can use any airtight material for the pipe but the rubber pipe idea i.e. using a soft bendable, expanded closed cell rubber insulation pipe, originates from a sound leaking tube test I made years ago with a 4” driver I mounted on one end of a 2m closed lambda/2 tube where the driver also faced a closed box of fc= 85 Hz at the basket side.
A few dips were seen in the measurements I made but were not so easily heard when playing music.
Most of the midrange and the treble range were much attenuated but the mid bass and upper bass came through at a higher level and sounding quite smooth and of course attenuated.
I don’t think a single Peerless 2” is the answer ‘SPL wise’ but 4 are, that is if a quadric or bell like aperture is placed in front of the drivers (See the picture of 4x Peerless 830970 in a HR simulation attempt targeting a Unity horn).
Each driver should be equipped with a small closed volume at the basket side.
An extra TL pipe or open back wouldn’t extend the FR much and as can be seen in the picture, but a small terminating volume (compliance) would reactance balance the horn to the better = flatter FR.
This would IMO result in an untamable and horrible FR throughout the whole BW and of course not that portable too.
b
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Hi again,
A megaphone always sounds bad with music though the sheer dimensioning involved looks about right.
I think that you for SQ reasons throughout should use furniture grade ply of 3-10 mm and build cross-braced framed stiff structures when forming the horns and the eventually needed enclosures.
I would cross brace every 10 cm using 3-5 mm ply.
You probably need at least 3 acoustic overlapping FR: s to cover the entire reinforcement BW range and you IMO, cannot avoid tapered shapes unless accepting an very overall low efficiency resulting in a low system SPL when a low voltage power supply also play a Joker.
b
Not really, just look at the compression ratio, i.e. your compressor (lungs) forcing air through your vocal chords, then further loaded by your low pass filter chamber (mouth) before squeezing it out through a tiny throat (lips) at high enough pressure to cause the wind instrument to create enough of a back pressure to keep your lungs from collapsing.
I have no idea how much volume displacement the average set of lungs has, but I imagine it's a good size radiator stroking an inch or more firing through a tiny slit with maybe a 1000:1 CR, so little wonder even a large format 10:1 CR horn driver (which is as good as it gets AFAIK for wide BW use) can't do it without a huge horn to give it enough back pressure to keep from bottoming it out long before its cut-off is reached.
Anyway, I don't have a clue how you're going to get a loud enough system in a small enough bulk, but to answer your Q, yes, you can TL or BH load the back of a horn. It's called a compound horn and can be simmed in HR and AkAbak. FWIW, the one compound horn I've experimented with used a large compression driver that I cut off at ~100 Hz and it was relatively huge and due to the small throats and the tiny chambers it required meant a rear path-length so long that the front/rear delay made it impossible to listen to for any length of time with my then youthful ears, so in my very limited experience this approach seems an exercise in futility. About the only positive thing it did was play painfully loud.
The driver-in-horn may have merit if you can make a large, long enough stand mounted horn with your instrument attached at the rear to mimic a 17th Century 'Voice of God' or French or......... horn. This would allow a large enough HE driver in a sealed cab to be 'hidden' in it. Being heard over a drum kit means it will have to easily play at 100+ dB with enough power handling for 115+ dB transients if your drummer is a loud one.
GM
Hi Max,GM_all
A new HR simulation of the 'portable sub' now not so portable but maybe can be curled up to a 'case' ( detachable sections)?
b
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Thank you for the work and the insight. GM, thank you for jumping in.
Please note that I am not versed in speaker terminology. I might use a few abbreviations, but I dont know any of these you guys are using, sorry.
GM, to your point that it is not surprising that horns are loud, lets say then that it should be possible to achieve the same freq range and SPL with a speaker the volume of a trombone fed with the same power output as a person. Something I dont know about acoustics precludes this dream.
Just quickly lets look at the lung power. Sherwood says in Human Physiology that the energy used in respiration during heavy exercise is 5% of total. I remember that a trained athlete can produce sustained 1/4 hp. Is this right?; 1/4 hp = 186 watts times 5% = 9.3 watts. A trumpet puts out up to 10 watts acoustic power at 130 db. let me search....Ok I looked up calories burned playing a trumpet and they give 500 calories per hour which if Im correct is 0.6 watts. Of course that is normal levels, so high levels could be easily 10 times, say 6 watts, but of course it must be over ten if the horn is emitting 10, and what should the efficiency really be? very low in real terms, as an acoustic transducer, but It seems very high indeed by ballpark methods. Anyway I want to produce 130 spl at 80 hz with a trombone cubic volume at 10 watts.....ok, ok just down to 200 Hz, I will make it easy on the Gods.
But I take your valuable words to heart and I will give up the rear loaded concept. Its shaping up that I will use bjornos design for a bass free standing unit covering 40 to 200 Hz. I will hand hold, probably resting on shoulder an 8 inch mouth horn. Now I have an octave hole. Hmmm. I should have called the thread "can any small system with the approximate volume of a trombone reach 200 Hz with high efficiency?"
thank you
Max
Please note that I am not versed in speaker terminology. I might use a few abbreviations, but I dont know any of these you guys are using, sorry.
GM, to your point that it is not surprising that horns are loud, lets say then that it should be possible to achieve the same freq range and SPL with a speaker the volume of a trombone fed with the same power output as a person. Something I dont know about acoustics precludes this dream.
Just quickly lets look at the lung power. Sherwood says in Human Physiology that the energy used in respiration during heavy exercise is 5% of total. I remember that a trained athlete can produce sustained 1/4 hp. Is this right?; 1/4 hp = 186 watts times 5% = 9.3 watts. A trumpet puts out up to 10 watts acoustic power at 130 db. let me search....Ok I looked up calories burned playing a trumpet and they give 500 calories per hour which if Im correct is 0.6 watts. Of course that is normal levels, so high levels could be easily 10 times, say 6 watts, but of course it must be over ten if the horn is emitting 10, and what should the efficiency really be? very low in real terms, as an acoustic transducer, but It seems very high indeed by ballpark methods. Anyway I want to produce 130 spl at 80 hz with a trombone cubic volume at 10 watts.....ok, ok just down to 200 Hz, I will make it easy on the Gods.
But I take your valuable words to heart and I will give up the rear loaded concept. Its shaping up that I will use bjornos design for a bass free standing unit covering 40 to 200 Hz. I will hand hold, probably resting on shoulder an 8 inch mouth horn. Now I have an octave hole. Hmmm. I should have called the thread "can any small system with the approximate volume of a trombone reach 200 Hz with high efficiency?"
thank you
Max
bjorno and readers
bjorno thank you for the latest. I will have to dig into this to understand the geometry of the four drivers on the horn throat. Looks like small entrance holes, and dare I imagine, without know what Im talking about, a time alignment problem with the tweeter you have blocked off with grey? Does someone have a link to this kind of design? I would have to make it aesthetic somehow for the purpose.
I have managed to download hornresp. I consider this a major acheivement. (I mean finding and downloading; of course the program must be genius) Now I guess I will have to learn about speaker and horn design. I was sort of hoping to skip those years of this project. But if anyone wants to jump in, I am wondering before digging in, how bad the effect of non ideal horn shapes i.e. salvaged trombone bell would be on the response. Remember that I dont really think I am after audiophile idealism, although clearly better than a megaphone! But I am starting to read here and there, and Im afraid I will end up building some wood monstrosity and everyone will laugh me off the stage. Bare in mind there's lots of people out there watching. Tractrix? exponential? conical? ....maybe if I wait long enough, someone will just tell me what to do.
I suppose I could always mount something for looks only, since that was part of the goal, (see rough visualizations) and place the entire monitor on the floor, but then I would have to be in psychiatric care. In practical terms, If the two Horns I have (one the megaphone) cant be salvaged for the bell, and if a trombone flare is just so horrible (always will be to an audiophile), then I would have to lathe the shape and lay up fiberglass, although I may die before finishing. I think a four sided horn is out for visual reasons. I could maybe go six or more sides, building like a wood strip canoe over a core of some kind. It could be sort of charming in a backwoods sort of way...
bjorno thank you for the latest. I will have to dig into this to understand the geometry of the four drivers on the horn throat. Looks like small entrance holes, and dare I imagine, without know what Im talking about, a time alignment problem with the tweeter you have blocked off with grey? Does someone have a link to this kind of design? I would have to make it aesthetic somehow for the purpose.
I have managed to download hornresp. I consider this a major acheivement. (I mean finding and downloading; of course the program must be genius) Now I guess I will have to learn about speaker and horn design. I was sort of hoping to skip those years of this project. But if anyone wants to jump in, I am wondering before digging in, how bad the effect of non ideal horn shapes i.e. salvaged trombone bell would be on the response. Remember that I dont really think I am after audiophile idealism, although clearly better than a megaphone! But I am starting to read here and there, and Im afraid I will end up building some wood monstrosity and everyone will laugh me off the stage. Bare in mind there's lots of people out there watching. Tractrix? exponential? conical? ....maybe if I wait long enough, someone will just tell me what to do.
I suppose I could always mount something for looks only, since that was part of the goal, (see rough visualizations) and place the entire monitor on the floor, but then I would have to be in psychiatric care. In practical terms, If the two Horns I have (one the megaphone) cant be salvaged for the bell, and if a trombone flare is just so horrible (always will be to an audiophile), then I would have to lathe the shape and lay up fiberglass, although I may die before finishing. I think a four sided horn is out for visual reasons. I could maybe go six or more sides, building like a wood strip canoe over a core of some kind. It could be sort of charming in a backwoods sort of way...
If I understand this thread correctly, Max Axe is attempting to make a synthesizer which mimics woodwind sounds, "be" the audio source. At least in appearance.
My impression is that this is to be used for "live" performances.
Why not consider mounting a peerless driver that you already have, which will produce nearly the entire audio spectrum ( especially in the nearfield ). Then reinforce with a small portable pa?
If the post with the musical instruments showed the "Horn", I see no reason why a small battery powered chip amp couldn't be attached to the end of the instrument, with a speaker in a simulated bell attached to the end to LOOK like a horn. Then simply attach a mic. as any live trumped performer might use to the instrument.
This seem to me like a solution not requiring the reinvention of the wheel, and gives the impression of an instrument. The psychoacoustics of a live performance instrument are satisfied. The people front and center will hear both an instrument, and PA reinforcement, and in a small enough venue, the PA may not even be necessary.
If this isn't working toward a solution, feel free to ignore...
Just my thoughts,
John
My impression is that this is to be used for "live" performances.
Why not consider mounting a peerless driver that you already have, which will produce nearly the entire audio spectrum ( especially in the nearfield ). Then reinforce with a small portable pa?
If the post with the musical instruments showed the "Horn", I see no reason why a small battery powered chip amp couldn't be attached to the end of the instrument, with a speaker in a simulated bell attached to the end to LOOK like a horn. Then simply attach a mic. as any live trumped performer might use to the instrument.
This seem to me like a solution not requiring the reinvention of the wheel, and gives the impression of an instrument. The psychoacoustics of a live performance instrument are satisfied. The people front and center will hear both an instrument, and PA reinforcement, and in a small enough venue, the PA may not even be necessary.
If this isn't working toward a solution, feel free to ignore...
Just my thoughts,
John
John
I think you're getting the point. But in fact I do play in a mind wrenchingly loud maelstrom which I must overcome. I normally play the flute with a couple of flamenco guitarists, electric bass and drum kit. Even with close floor monitors, its maddening to try to hear what youre doing. You constantly think your instrument is broken or something terrible has gone wrong. Imagine trying to give a speech or sing a song in front of 200 people and finding you cant use consonants. But your point is valid in a number of ways though. The idea of audiophile reproduction is not so much an issue because the instrument in question is playing as a monophonic voice. A change in timbral characteristics from speaker coloration is like playing a violin made from different manufacturer. In fact SOME fixed resonances might create a more realistic sounding instrument, because the samples that the synth plays are probably every third note up the scale and who knows how they processed them.
Hmmm, I didnt have to go far to read about the Unity Horn. I spoke too soon of course, sorry. "Unmatched voice intelligibility and precise music reproduction due to the time-aligned phase coherent design"
Man, the degree to which you brains get into this stuff! I dont really know if I have it in me to get up to speed on the science within this lifetime.
When I hear statements like "the subtle airy presentation of the fifth octave" I realize that we are in different worlds as far as goals go. Im just trying to survive sonic hell.
Ive recorded in some of the best studios in Arizona, and I guarantee that while engineering these, there is an effort made, but its nothing like what the audiophile gets into. And then there is all of the compression and effects applied....
Then stage performance is a completely different world than studio recording and you are cast into a roaring, reverberating, clipped, feedback plagued nightmare of audio overload. Its mainly this world that Im trying to create a solo voice instrument loud enough to be heard so I can just figure out what Im doing, whos playing what.
thank you
max
I think you're getting the point. But in fact I do play in a mind wrenchingly loud maelstrom which I must overcome. I normally play the flute with a couple of flamenco guitarists, electric bass and drum kit. Even with close floor monitors, its maddening to try to hear what youre doing. You constantly think your instrument is broken or something terrible has gone wrong. Imagine trying to give a speech or sing a song in front of 200 people and finding you cant use consonants. But your point is valid in a number of ways though. The idea of audiophile reproduction is not so much an issue because the instrument in question is playing as a monophonic voice. A change in timbral characteristics from speaker coloration is like playing a violin made from different manufacturer. In fact SOME fixed resonances might create a more realistic sounding instrument, because the samples that the synth plays are probably every third note up the scale and who knows how they processed them.
Hmmm, I didnt have to go far to read about the Unity Horn. I spoke too soon of course, sorry. "Unmatched voice intelligibility and precise music reproduction due to the time-aligned phase coherent design"
Man, the degree to which you brains get into this stuff! I dont really know if I have it in me to get up to speed on the science within this lifetime.
When I hear statements like "the subtle airy presentation of the fifth octave" I realize that we are in different worlds as far as goals go. Im just trying to survive sonic hell.
Ive recorded in some of the best studios in Arizona, and I guarantee that while engineering these, there is an effort made, but its nothing like what the audiophile gets into. And then there is all of the compression and effects applied....
Then stage performance is a completely different world than studio recording and you are cast into a roaring, reverberating, clipped, feedback plagued nightmare of audio overload. Its mainly this world that Im trying to create a solo voice instrument loud enough to be heard so I can just figure out what Im doing, whos playing what.
thank you
max
I just wanted to be clear that I am usually close to electricity. I have to have a midi instrument line out from the instrument. This goes to a synth module standing close by. From that module, a line goes to the main PA and another line would go to a small amp sitting on the module which would have a speaker cord that would run back up to my instrument. Not ideal, but workable. I have my doubts about a battery operated amp on the instrument because of the extra weight size and complexities.
I rather like the idea of bjornos bass tube and the horn loaded concept for the power of it. But Im stuck on not going more than about 8 inches in diameter, and the horns in question seem to be twice that, although I havent checked bjornos last analysis for dimensions. Im not too keen on getting deep into crossover design either, and I would be willing to compromise sonics to some degree to simplify that part of the project.
Thanks,
Max
I rather like the idea of bjornos bass tube and the horn loaded concept for the power of it. But Im stuck on not going more than about 8 inches in diameter, and the horns in question seem to be twice that, although I havent checked bjornos last analysis for dimensions. Im not too keen on getting deep into crossover design either, and I would be willing to compromise sonics to some degree to simplify that part of the project.
Thanks,
Max
Max,
In my youth I spent a lot of time performing on stages too. I was just a singer in the band, so I can relate to your dilemma.
A couple of comments/questions regarding the quote above.
"I normally play the flute with a couple of flamenco guitarists, electric bass and drum kit."
How is your flute mic'd? is it attached to the instrument? Floor standing?
Your synth could be mic'd the same way ( as I outlined it in my prev. post ).
As to the Cacaphony on the stage, I never had the benefit of using the " in ear " monitors that are so popular on live TV shows today, so I have no experience with them. They seem like an ideal situation for the musician, the plugs physically block extraneous noises and protect your hearing, while allowing you to monitor the performance. I have no idea what a setup like that costs, but would seem like part of the solution.
The solution I outlined previously, I thought, was rather elegant. It's compact, easy to transport, etc....You posted again while I was typing, I didn't realize that the instrument had to be hooked up to the other synth module, too bad that kinda blows my solution, unless you wanted to work in extra complexity with a couple of wireless connections....
Oh well,
John
John
Yes finances are a bit of an object, and the wireless things can cost quite a bit, and there are all the little extra things to set up and keep track of. You can go wireless with the midi instrument as well, but again I didnt want to spend the money just now when I dont mind so much a wire hanging off of me. The worst is when you step on the wire and it rips the instrument out of your hands on to the floor.
But I like the idea of a full-range stuck right in the mouth of a bell, it is something I am considering. And this would work ok with a speaker cord coming from an amp. But Im starting to get attached to the idea of true horn level SPL or nearly, and not worrying about blowing up my little speaker. But if anybody has a suggestion for a 5 or 6 inch full range that would work well with a trombone shaped labyrinth Im all ears.
I use a floor standing mic stand. yes, I could play the midi instrument with small full range directly into the mic. But there is already a line coming from the synth engine to the main PA, so I could go either way.
Now if this system that bjorno is coming up with could sound as good as I imagine, I could see making a pair and using it as a stand alone PA in its own right. It would look very cool to have those horns. Certainly for now there is the problem of the octave + between 200 and 550 Hz. ......an 8 inch horn that goes to 200 Hz....."impossible" said the engineer to the trombone player.
GO BJORNO!
Thanks
Yes finances are a bit of an object, and the wireless things can cost quite a bit, and there are all the little extra things to set up and keep track of. You can go wireless with the midi instrument as well, but again I didnt want to spend the money just now when I dont mind so much a wire hanging off of me. The worst is when you step on the wire and it rips the instrument out of your hands on to the floor.
But I like the idea of a full-range stuck right in the mouth of a bell, it is something I am considering. And this would work ok with a speaker cord coming from an amp. But Im starting to get attached to the idea of true horn level SPL or nearly, and not worrying about blowing up my little speaker. But if anybody has a suggestion for a 5 or 6 inch full range that would work well with a trombone shaped labyrinth Im all ears.
I use a floor standing mic stand. yes, I could play the midi instrument with small full range directly into the mic. But there is already a line coming from the synth engine to the main PA, so I could go either way.
Now if this system that bjorno is coming up with could sound as good as I imagine, I could see making a pair and using it as a stand alone PA in its own right. It would look very cool to have those horns. Certainly for now there is the problem of the octave + between 200 and 550 Hz. ......an 8 inch horn that goes to 200 Hz....."impossible" said the engineer to the trombone player.
GO BJORNO!
Thanks
You're welcome!
Hmm, don't have the time/inclination to do the research, but it sounds like you're comparing apples to oranges for what's required. The point I was trying to get across is a human's ability to create an impressive amount of sustained back pressure, far more than can be realized with a relatively small electrically actuated moving coil compression driver and why relatively small high SPL horns such as used on trucks or sirens are driven by air compressors, so what's needed is a way to use this type of system to reproduce the desired BW, but even then I'm thinking it's going to require a relatively large, expensive two stage compressor to play low into a musical instrument sized throat.
Anyway, what you're trying to accomplish doesn't make sense to me as I understand it. I mean you can't hear an electric guitar when you're playing it except through its speaker system, so seems to me that housing your synth in a mock horn and placing a pair of line arrays slightly behind you to both be able to hear it as well as make sound appear as coming from you seems the way to go.
Then it's just a matter of how many simple speaker modules is required to get the desired SPL at 'X' distance, so take a gander at prosound line array system tech papers to learn the basics and just buy what's required if you need enough acoustic power to play in large venues or DIY with cheap woofers and piezo tweeter horns for < ~250 seats otherwise.
GM
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I think a line array could be a good solution. Whats missing are two things; the personal feedback of having the actual instrument in your hands be alive and produce sound and the visual impact of having a horn except if you put a fake one on as you indicate. That second requirement is bigger than one might think, and you can get an idea by looking at the instrument with and without the horn in previous post.
Of course you are right that you can hardly hear an electric guitar. In fact the guitarists and bass player use a personal monitor for that reason. The line array would work well, but the onboard system would be better if it can be designed, just like it would feel better to have your voice issue from your mouth instead of your toes when you talked. But I cant bring myself to put a fake horn on the instrument. People always ask, and how many times I would have to say its fake...
But there is still the question of the trombone horn cut off frequency being more than two octaves above its low notes. I guess most of the energy is in the harmonics, which probably explains it. I should have said its unfortunate, not amazing that you cant make a speaker with trombone dimensions to reproduce a trombone sound.
Everyone thought the induced drag due to span loading on a glider was an inviolable law and that elliptical lift distribution was the best obtainable, but then they put bird feathers on the tips and found they could cut the wing span in half. I wish there was some similar magic for horn size....its a possible question, can you make a more gradual low freq roll off perhaps by compromising horn dimensions.
thank you
max
Of course you are right that you can hardly hear an electric guitar. In fact the guitarists and bass player use a personal monitor for that reason. The line array would work well, but the onboard system would be better if it can be designed, just like it would feel better to have your voice issue from your mouth instead of your toes when you talked. But I cant bring myself to put a fake horn on the instrument. People always ask, and how many times I would have to say its fake...
But there is still the question of the trombone horn cut off frequency being more than two octaves above its low notes. I guess most of the energy is in the harmonics, which probably explains it. I should have said its unfortunate, not amazing that you cant make a speaker with trombone dimensions to reproduce a trombone sound.
Everyone thought the induced drag due to span loading on a glider was an inviolable law and that elliptical lift distribution was the best obtainable, but then they put bird feathers on the tips and found they could cut the wing span in half. I wish there was some similar magic for horn size....its a possible question, can you make a more gradual low freq roll off perhaps by compromising horn dimensions.
thank you
max
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