#1 please forgive me, I'm not that knowledgeable about how modern pop music is made, or audio terminology.
Without getting lost in the weeds- just as general advice to me, a person without golden ears - do you think speaker minutiae matter less to synthesized music? The difference between $30, $100, $200 drivers?
I understand there are diminishing returns. Maybe what I'm asking you is: graph your personal understanding of driver value: x-axis $, y-axis 0-100% listening enjoyment. Or help me graph my own.
I listen mainly to music from >1980/90. A lot of hip hop, electronic, pop, and other music made without live instruments.
I like good headphones, and can easily tell the difference between the headphones I have- or recognize that some are more/less capable in certain areas. I have a few KZ models & ER4XR. The ER4XR do more, some of the KZ don't leave much to complain about though. Most just do things differently.
I get lost when reading reviews online, and am wondering if I could benefit from some advice about my perspective.
I'll read a (amateur independent consumer) review, think, 'wow these must be great', and then come across something that says, 'these were incredible, I could hear the flutist's chair move 4 times!', or, 'I could hear the saliva smacking on the vocalist's lips during the intro', etc.
I mean, when I listen to Dr. Dre's 2001, there is a lot of range there. There is a lot of detail. I enjoy hearing the changes in tone of voice. I enjoy hearing clear instrumentals, and a full frequency spectrum.
...But Dre's not repositioning in his chair or slaying a guitar solo on track 2.
When I play Lana del Rey, I enjoy hearing the emotion in her voice, there are instrumentals there, there are layers to the song, but again, I don't think I can connect this music to a lot of what I see being described in reviews.
When I play Tycho (downtempo/ambient vocal-less electronic).. I mean, it'll sound different through different speakers (the tone I guess you'd say; warmth). But once I'm hearing all the instrumentals being fairly accurately reproduced, what else is there? A low noise floor? Clarity/detail? It doesn't really seem like the music 'improves' that much as you move away from very very basic, subpar, equipment
I'd like to hear what you have to say about this. I won't get offended & don't mean to offend anyone, to each their own. I'm just trying to save some money and understand what applies to me. I'm basically just going in circles reading 1 review that says X is the better than Y, and then seeing the reverse said elsewhere.
Without getting lost in the weeds- just as general advice to me, a person without golden ears - do you think speaker minutiae matter less to synthesized music? The difference between $30, $100, $200 drivers?
I understand there are diminishing returns. Maybe what I'm asking you is: graph your personal understanding of driver value: x-axis $, y-axis 0-100% listening enjoyment. Or help me graph my own.
I listen mainly to music from >1980/90. A lot of hip hop, electronic, pop, and other music made without live instruments.
I like good headphones, and can easily tell the difference between the headphones I have- or recognize that some are more/less capable in certain areas. I have a few KZ models & ER4XR. The ER4XR do more, some of the KZ don't leave much to complain about though. Most just do things differently.
I get lost when reading reviews online, and am wondering if I could benefit from some advice about my perspective.
I'll read a (amateur independent consumer) review, think, 'wow these must be great', and then come across something that says, 'these were incredible, I could hear the flutist's chair move 4 times!', or, 'I could hear the saliva smacking on the vocalist's lips during the intro', etc.
I mean, when I listen to Dr. Dre's 2001, there is a lot of range there. There is a lot of detail. I enjoy hearing the changes in tone of voice. I enjoy hearing clear instrumentals, and a full frequency spectrum.
...But Dre's not repositioning in his chair or slaying a guitar solo on track 2.
When I play Lana del Rey, I enjoy hearing the emotion in her voice, there are instrumentals there, there are layers to the song, but again, I don't think I can connect this music to a lot of what I see being described in reviews.
When I play Tycho (downtempo/ambient vocal-less electronic).. I mean, it'll sound different through different speakers (the tone I guess you'd say; warmth). But once I'm hearing all the instrumentals being fairly accurately reproduced, what else is there? A low noise floor? Clarity/detail? It doesn't really seem like the music 'improves' that much as you move away from very very basic, subpar, equipment
I'd like to hear what you have to say about this. I won't get offended & don't mean to offend anyone, to each their own. I'm just trying to save some money and understand what applies to me. I'm basically just going in circles reading 1 review that says X is the better than Y, and then seeing the reverse said elsewhere.
Tycho's music uses synthesizers and live instruments. His live shows often feature a live drums with a very good drummer, a guitar and bass guitar and Scott himself playing the keys, a guitar, or both often with trigger devices for canned clips or loops. The recorded music may be born in a DAW, but there are live loops and entire parts used for assembly into the final piece of music.
Real drums, especially the snare are hard to get right through cheap speakers. There is a point of diminishing returns with speaker building, as with the entire music chain. It's possible to make good sounding speakers with cheap drivers, unless you want to have "shake the walls" bass which needs amplifier power and sizeable speaker drivers.
I built a set of cheap speakers specifically for amp testing. The main criteria for driver selection was high power handling capability and low price. There is $50 worth of drivers in each speaker. I was quite surprised at how they turned out. They have been used for live outdoor music in vocal PA and electric piano or guitar applications. The sound is very good, and after 5 years I haven't blown a driver even with a 125 WPC tube amp banging into clipping for a couple hours. They however have virtually no response below 75 Hz. Cranking Tycho or Pink Floyd requires a separate powered 15 inch subwoofer, and that cost about $300 to build.
If you like Tycho, check out Rufus Du Sol, same idea, live instrument or two with MIDI controlled support, but heavier on the synths and percussion.
Speakers are like cars. There will never be a perfect one size fits all solution, and reviewers are always biased toward what fits them.
I have the perfect car...?!
Basing a system on a type of music is a red herring. Even basing it on music is too restrictive, as a good system makes an ice hockey game sound great. But music does need to activate your inner reality/loudness detector, so whatever you're playing it needs to get loud enough to be realistically loud to meet your personal expectations. Getting drums right is a good start and a good end!
About synthesized electronic music, Jack Dangers and Luke Vibert are two of my favorites, but their stuff sounds great on any system because it's typically great music, but they both use lots of real instruments in addition to synthesized sounds, plus they leave audio fairies hanging in the air for when your system gets good enough top end to reveal them. So enjoy your own journey of getting to the mountain top.
Practical tip: Make your upgrade path include the use of active xo below ~300-400Hz, so you can easily adjust for thin or bloated bass from any music era.
Basing a system on a type of music is a red herring. Even basing it on music is too restrictive, as a good system makes an ice hockey game sound great. But music does need to activate your inner reality/loudness detector, so whatever you're playing it needs to get loud enough to be realistically loud to meet your personal expectations. Getting drums right is a good start and a good end!
About synthesized electronic music, Jack Dangers and Luke Vibert are two of my favorites, but their stuff sounds great on any system because it's typically great music, but they both use lots of real instruments in addition to synthesized sounds, plus they leave audio fairies hanging in the air for when your system gets good enough top end to reveal them. So enjoy your own journey of getting to the mountain top.
Practical tip: Make your upgrade path include the use of active xo below ~300-400Hz, so you can easily adjust for thin or bloated bass from any music era.
Electronic music, you can't tell what the artist or recording engineer was hearing. What kind of headphones, monitor, you don't know. 60's pop music was mixed in the studio for car radio speakers, but by the electronic music era the recording engineer & artist were aiming for a system more upscale than a $10 speaker and 3 watts.
It is intensely difficult to reproduce a grand piano. Lots of power in the hammer hits, frequencies from 27 to 15k, I never had a speaker that came close to accurate until 2010. I don't listen to that all the time, but if a speaker/amp combo will reproduce that accurately, it comes close to putting out the sound that is on the media to begin with. So I recommend testing for purchase with that sound source. Much quicker than doing a frequency sweep in an anechoic chamber & making a frequency response & harmonic distortion chart. Then there is IM distortion, particularly 10 plus 15 khz which is almost never tested.
BTW go listen to a piano in a concert hall so you know what to listen for. Solo top octave and bottom octave notes are rare, look for recorded tracks that have them. Peter Nero Young & Warm & Wonderful has solo top octave, Beethoven Appasionnata goes all the way down.
Other tough sources, bass drum hits should not sweep in frequency (ZZ top afterburner), tinkly bells should be accurate, cymbles shouldn't have sibulance.
OTOH, in my TV room I listen to 6 1/2" coaxial speakers (whizzer cone) in a 12" long box for a bass reflex port in the back. Kind of middle of the road response, not intensely accurate, but not annoying either. Max power 10 watts. I don't have space in that room for 91 lb speakers, nor am I seriously paying attention usually.
It is intensely difficult to reproduce a grand piano. Lots of power in the hammer hits, frequencies from 27 to 15k, I never had a speaker that came close to accurate until 2010. I don't listen to that all the time, but if a speaker/amp combo will reproduce that accurately, it comes close to putting out the sound that is on the media to begin with. So I recommend testing for purchase with that sound source. Much quicker than doing a frequency sweep in an anechoic chamber & making a frequency response & harmonic distortion chart. Then there is IM distortion, particularly 10 plus 15 khz which is almost never tested.
BTW go listen to a piano in a concert hall so you know what to listen for. Solo top octave and bottom octave notes are rare, look for recorded tracks that have them. Peter Nero Young & Warm & Wonderful has solo top octave, Beethoven Appasionnata goes all the way down.
Other tough sources, bass drum hits should not sweep in frequency (ZZ top afterburner), tinkly bells should be accurate, cymbles shouldn't have sibulance.
OTOH, in my TV room I listen to 6 1/2" coaxial speakers (whizzer cone) in a 12" long box for a bass reflex port in the back. Kind of middle of the road response, not intensely accurate, but not annoying either. Max power 10 watts. I don't have space in that room for 91 lb speakers, nor am I seriously paying attention usually.
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The way I've always imagined it - and I can recall imagining this and presenting it many years ago to a formerly existing Audio forum who did NOT like the idea - is such a curve is generally asymptotic.
Asymptotic to 100% listening enjoyment, where the speaker / amp / player does everything perfectly for whatever you're listening to.
What this means is, to get that last 10% closer, you - generally - have to spend a $%#@-ton of money. Whether this is due to reality or marketing / branding / psychology - who knows.
So for practical expenditures, it's all a compromise.
If you look about this DIY forum, you'll see that folks are VERY interested in drivers that are a bargain for what they do. People are very interested in blind test results that show beloved, expensive units fare no better than very reasonably priced units - over certain frequency ranges. What most people want is to get as high up on that curve for the least expense - and not be fooled into thinking "just because they spent a lot of dough" they're necessarily in a better spot for it. Generally true, but not necessarily so.
Part of what makes it fun is having the ability to piece something together that get you a very good way "there" - this 100% - at a reasonable and affordable cost.
I might even add that while the curve is asymptotic, the x-axis (cost) is logarithmic... That is, to actually move a few % up toward perfection, you spend 10X. What they'd love for you to believe is you move up a lot more... Who's "they"? Anyone that sells this stuff. Now we see why comprehending this idea is vastly unpopular. Regardless, I believe it still stands to remind us that, it's all a compromise and the best you can do is simply, the best you practically can afford - along with a good dose of knowledge and clever application. Which is also a kind of expense.
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Very much like trying to set a speed record. Going 5% faster takes a lot more than just 5% more power. There are plenty of wonderful affordable speaker parts on the market. The "magic" is often in the crossover. And also in defining your goals.
Electronic music can be as hard to reproduce well as any other genre. Only the requirements are different.
It is also quite unreasonable to expect that a system set up properly for classical would do electronic music any justice.
As for expenditure...some other genres may get away with mini monitors or single driver horns and 8W valve amps, but for electronica a full bandwidth system with a prodigious power reserve seems more appropriate.
It is also quite unreasonable to expect that a system set up properly for classical would do electronic music any justice.
As for expenditure...some other genres may get away with mini monitors or single driver horns and 8W valve amps, but for electronica a full bandwidth system with a prodigious power reserve seems more appropriate.
I spent a couple years in 1970 and 71 helping put the electronics together in a couple of low budget "recording studios" that did mostly the cartridges for local radio commercials, demo tapes for local bands, and renting the place out for practice to big name bands before their $$$$ studio time at Criteria in Miami.
One day I got to tour Criteria. I believe it was in the Summer of 1972. The mixdown engineer had a nice console with several speaker systems in front of him that he could select. Behind him was a 4 X 8 foot sheet of plywood with a pair of 6 X 9 inch car speakers in it. I asked him about the setup, and he replied that music that is expected to sell well gets mixed differently for different distribution mediums. The big stuff in front was used for vinyl, and reel to reel tape. A smaller set of front speakers were used for cassette based distribution, and the 6 X 9's were used for 8 track tape cartridges.
The term "electronic music" can mean a lot of things which are different to different people. The art of sampling had made sounds and instruments available to anyone with a computer and a MIDI controller that would have been impossible just a few years ago.
I can load up some well recorded samples of a "Bosendorfer Grand" and play them on a $99 plastic keyboard. Now, there is no way that I can do a Bosendorfer justice, but the sound quality is there, and none of my current speaker systems can play it at realistic volume levels.
As stated frequency extremes, drum transients, and cymbals are the obvious places to find shortfalls. My daughter played drums and I spent a lot of time in the late 90's trying to record and reproduce drums on early vintage PC recording hardware, so "getting the drums right" is one of the things that I look for.
I don't know where in the world you are, but if there is a place that will let you walk in with a hand full of CD's and listen to a bunch of different speakers, I would DO IT. The least that can happen is that you will find out a bit more about what you like, and what you don't.
Back in the 80's I walked into a Sam Ash Music store where they had a small recording studio (they sell home studio stuff). There was 6 or 7 different "monitor" systems set up in a sound booth so that they could be auditioned. I had brought several CD's to use for test material. I spent a couple hours playing with their system and walked out with a pair of Yamaha NS-10M Studio monitors. I still use them, among others, some of which are DIY.
There is no "one perfect speaker" for all music, nor "one perfect speaker" for different listeners of the same music. If there is a way to better figure out what you want, take it.
Assuming the tip is directed at me, it is sadly arriving too late
No longer own any CDs and for at least 40 years have had a pretty good idea of what i like. And no, Yammies NS10 cannot play the electronic music i like, they lack several octaves in the bass.
When I go out for a jog, there's a house I run past where a teenager sometimes plays their drum kit. Within milliseconds I realize one of my favorite self-quotes; "that isnt anyone's stereo system"...
Even encased within the walls of a home, it cracks me up how sonic-ly obvious a live drum kit sounds, compared to any recorded and then reproduced one. That's just a very old joke in comparison to live.
Distance doesnt seem to be a factor, as I've had this impression from 50 yards to probably a mile away (coming from the nearby high school). Many, many times over the years - and hearing degradation with age doesnt seem to effect the perception one iota -
The reason why you can only hear difference on headphone but cannot with speaker is most probably your room. For electronic music, you really need a dry room with very well controlled low frequency reverb time.
It's not about the sound, it's all about teenager's horribly tuned Walmart drum kit and his sloppy play!
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It was meant for the OP, who is trying to decide where to best spend his speaker buying / building money.
My daughter was good enough to be the first female drum captain in the history of the high school marching band. She taught drums and keyboards at a local music school for several years, and knew how to tune her slightly better than Walmart quality drums (Pearl Export set with many add ons).
There is something in the transients of drum dynamics that are hard to reproduce. I could never capture and reproduce the realism of a snare drum or a rim hit on the tom-tom with my 44/16 Media Vision Pro Audio Spectrum setup in the 90's. My Teac 3440 did better, but still did not invoke "live."
I can usually tell if drums are live or recorded although I have been fooled, I have a better than even chance with acoustic guitar music, even if it's through a decent PA. Electric guitars, no. Piano, depends on the piano, and the player.
I remember walking along Ft. Lauderdale beach one evening, probably in the mid 2000's and hearing some acoustic guitar music, which was obviously live coming from a small club. I walked up to the patio and saw a grey haired man playing solo. It was very good, so I stood outside and watched for a while. When he picked up the tempo and started singing, I thought that he did a good rendition of Peter Frampton's music. I walked away and got a glimpse of the sighn in front of the club, it WAS Peter Frampton.
True, the NS-10M's fall off like a rock at 70 Hz, that's why there is a 15 inch sub under the desk with a 200 watt plate amp. The sealed cabinet of the Yamaha NS-10 guarantees no big bass, but it gets the drum transients right.
Back when I bought the NS-10's the local "Boom Boom car scene" was growing fast, after all, I was in South Florida. You could buy big boom stuff at Walmart there. I heard a racket outside one day coming from a bunch of kids across the street. They were "tuning" one of their cars with several "test CD's" made just for this purpose. One CD had sinusoidal test tones from about 10 Hz to over 100Hz, and a "drum track." It was about 2 minutes of well recorded drums that exhibited pretty decent realism. I got one of those discs and it was the deciding factor in selecting the NS-10's over all the other speakers. The NS-10's were also the cheapest speakers in the room.
... I think you have to sort the music by completely different criteria.
It does not matter if it's metal, electronic, jazz or whatever else.
Seems to me that: If the music is made and marketed for the sole purpose of making money, it usually sounds like you play it on inbuilt tv set speakers no matter how good your system is.
It does not matter if it's metal, electronic, jazz or whatever else.
Seems to me that: If the music is made and marketed for the sole purpose of making money, it usually sounds like you play it on inbuilt tv set speakers no matter how good your system is.
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