So many people who have built the Elsinores, particular from Mk5 and Mk6 onward (where current EQ was applied, so that the same amplifier has to produce the current and hence the same energy at all frequencies), that they somehow sound different from other speakers. Less Hi-Fi for a start, no artificial brightness, yet intimate with small scale quartets and large scale with orchestral, they just get the scale right. They also sound less constricted, they image like crazy, width and height. If the setup is right with the rest of the systems, I have heard people ask "where are the other speakers in the room?" For that reason, they are also great for movies.
A friend who built them last year replacing $83,000 speakers from Raidho (they are Danish like me) and said just three words "they do everything!"
More recently a number of Elsinore owners have decided to try them with different amplifiers and quite amazed how revealing they can be. You can really hear the difference and yet they are also so amplifier friendly that hardly any amplifier sound bad with them. But still, get the best amp that you can get or afford. I like that.
BTW, I am not saying these things above, they are the ones telling me!
And I did it for free!
As for the theory behind them, that is a different matter and others can disagree, but can they disagree when they haven't even heard them? Let them, but I don't care... besides they only have a partial part of the story.
I am writing a paper, some of it has already been discussed with my peers (and some of them I consider superiors) and it has passed muster. One of the 'shocks' is how the output impedance, particularly LF, an overhung Voice Coil actually swamps the output impedance of the conventional 'voltage source' amplifier and what changing the length of the Voice Coil does to the driver when applying the calculation F=Bli.
Some things are hidden in plain sight. This one is a beauty. You could argue that there is no such thing as voltage drive, except with electrostatic (force=voltage) speakers.
Sadly, when that was tried, the usual suspects turned up, the howler monkeys, so nothing got heard and even less fairly discussed. We are going to have a forum which I hope will be moderated by a person I consider to have considerable stature and it will be via invitation only.
But the forum here is for the DIY constructors and not so much for discussing and disagreeing about theory.
A friend who built them last year replacing $83,000 speakers from Raidho (they are Danish like me) and said just three words "they do everything!"
More recently a number of Elsinore owners have decided to try them with different amplifiers and quite amazed how revealing they can be. You can really hear the difference and yet they are also so amplifier friendly that hardly any amplifier sound bad with them. But still, get the best amp that you can get or afford. I like that.
BTW, I am not saying these things above, they are the ones telling me!
And I did it for free!
As for the theory behind them, that is a different matter and others can disagree, but can they disagree when they haven't even heard them? Let them, but I don't care... besides they only have a partial part of the story.
I am writing a paper, some of it has already been discussed with my peers (and some of them I consider superiors) and it has passed muster. One of the 'shocks' is how the output impedance, particularly LF, an overhung Voice Coil actually swamps the output impedance of the conventional 'voltage source' amplifier and what changing the length of the Voice Coil does to the driver when applying the calculation F=Bli.
Some things are hidden in plain sight. This one is a beauty. You could argue that there is no such thing as voltage drive, except with electrostatic (force=voltage) speakers.
Sadly, when that was tried, the usual suspects turned up, the howler monkeys, so nothing got heard and even less fairly discussed. We are going to have a forum which I hope will be moderated by a person I consider to have considerable stature and it will be via invitation only.
But the forum here is for the DIY constructors and not so much for discussing and disagreeing about theory.
Thanks for your comments, re a new thread, see my reply to boswald at the end of the last post.
First of all, I am not in the current-drive camp. I know this confuses so many and I seem to repeat this so many times, oh well. It is Esa Merilainen who is on a crusade that the world should be converted to current-drive. I am not in that camp!
My interest in this is much broader than that, in fact I am not even on a crusade, I only have an interest in what really happens to the current, whether it is voltage-drive or current-drive, what happens to the current, how does the dynamic loudspeaker respond to the current. The key here is the equation we all know but 99.9% just ignore and it is such a simple equation F=BLi.
"F" = Force actuating the Voice Coil
"B" = This is the strength of magnetic field in the gap where the Voice Coil sits.
"L" = Length of the Voice Coil that sits inside the gap and not the whole Voice Coil. Hence, it is also the same as the gap.
"i" = The current in the Voice Coil.
Only about 30% of the length of the Voice Coil sits inside the gap. So 70% of the circa 6 Ohm DC resistance sits outside the gap. If the VC was a single layer, you would have a near passive 2R on the active side of the amplifier and another 2R on the return side, 4 Ohm in all approx.
Can anybody see a problem with the above and the notion of voltage-drive with a conventional amplifier? For a start, only 30% of the voltage is inside the gap. Something is hidden in plain sight. Based on the above, with the majority of loudspeaker drivers, can it be called voltage-drive? Is there really such a thing as voltage-drive in the first place?
In anticipation, for those who will point to underhung Voice Coil drivers, a closer analysis will disclose the same thing. It does not matter if it is inside or outside the gap. The question will remain whether there is any such notion of voltage-drive in the first place?
My two points are:
1. There is no such thing as voltage drive, all amplifiers are just different forms of delivering current to the driver, the Voice Coil in the gap.
2. We are listening to the current of the amplifier, not its voltage.
That number two will be the most difficult for many to get, but I have asked three physicists who knows their stuff, and they have not disagreed.
BTW, the howler monkeys hate me asking these kind of questions and pointing these things out.
Think of the consequences of such thinking. Crossovers in loudspeakers are current dividers as far as the Bass, Midrange and Tweeters are concerned. Yet we model and design Crossovers according to a voltage model. Here the Elsinores are different, the Crossover is designed to divide current and not voltage. But one is not allowed to say such things? It delights some and infuriate others. I have no answer to that.
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What is that? As far as I'm aware he's used a Zobel network to flatten the speaker's impedance. Am I missing something else?
Is the notion here that the back EMF of a driver is not a restive but an inductive source. Current lags voltage but a voltage amp sees the back EMF voltage and corrects for it when the current is lagging behind. Do the equalising networks somehow ensure the amp sees the current in phase with voltage so as it corrects for voltage it corrects for current also?
I suggest you measure the current at the output of the amp, and at the driver terminals, and the acoustic output and compare all three.
Makes sense.
Current in a conductor produces the magnetic field, and hence force on the voice coil.
In an imperfect parallel, a car’s RPM is related to power, but does not accelerate the vehicle in and of itself, the torque of the engine does.
Current in a circuit is obviously related to voltage, but when a speaker with non flat impedance is mated to amplifiers of different output impedances there will be a varying voltage divider effect - therefore varying current, and therefore varying frequency response. Clearly this will make the same speaker (with non flat impedance) on a low output impedance amp sound different from when a high output impedance amp is used.
That on the surface seems what it is about, but no, it goes a lot deeper than that.
Scott, exactly. And when I presented evidence for that, the howler monkeys came out for me and nobody heard the message.
The way(s) I have been treated has not exactly been encouraging. But then again history repeats itself, know what I mean?
I am playing a long game, I have come to realise that. Hope you can understand that and the circumstances I find myself in. But the encouragement I am getting on the side, by significant heavyweights, is keeping me strong.
Also, I have been going through a period of depression in the last number of months (there are people here who knows I have serious problems with my son who has a mental illness) and through a kind doctor I am now on medication that has made a whole lot of difference. I suppose there was a time time when we were all younger and feeling immortal. I am no longer of that view.
So I hope you understand. My paper will explain everything and I know that some parts of it has already caused raised eyebrows and caused further questions to be asked. Good. That is how science works and I am a believer in science.
Cheers (as always), Joe
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All I've seen is the measurement at the amp output terminals, I've missed other measurements, please post again, seriously. The measurements will speak for themselves.
Hear hear!
I know absolutely nothing about speaker design. I do have decent hearing and over 40 years' experience in "high end audio," and there is no question in my mind that Joe Rasmussen's Elsinore design is spectacular. The Elsinores I built supplanted truly beloved Egglestonworks Andra loudspeakers in my main listening room for good reason: the Elsinores are astonishingly vivid, precise without sounding etched and tonally balanced. My Elsinores make music breathe in an uncanny and very natural way. They are a delight and I am incredibly grateful to Joe.
Is Joe's design theory wrong? Seems unlikely, given the Elsinores' performance. But either way, the tone of a number of posts on this thread are unreasonably hostile. You don't agree with Joe's perspective? You think his explanations are crazy talk? You demand answers? Wow. Who do you think you are?
Show a little respect. If you don't agree with something, ask politely and stop badgering the man. Don't like Joe's responses? Stop reading this thread. Instead, how about you design a better loudspeaker or write the definitive white paper on loudspeaker design theory, and stop thrashing about here?
Regards,
Scott
What he said.
I’m amazed that you “howler monkeys” don’t have something better to do than lurk around a thread devoted to a speaker you have no interest in. How empty is your life? Please leave.
From the listening front.
It took a while, but I returned to the original Elsinore crossover. With the help of my friends, I was able to determine what changes for the ear when the compensation net is detached. At least for me.
This is best heard on the vocals. They recede and blend into the background music. The original crossover gives a more three-dimensional presentation.
It is not a very strong phenomenon, but it is noticeable. And that's it for this experiment. I'm going to listen to music. Thanks to Elsinore, I have a lot of fun here.
PS. A few days ago I was in the audio showroom. JBL HDI-3800 played. I definitely prefer Elsinore.
Health and strength. Joe!
It took a while, but I returned to the original Elsinore crossover. With the help of my friends, I was able to determine what changes for the ear when the compensation net is detached. At least for me.
This is best heard on the vocals. They recede and blend into the background music. The original crossover gives a more three-dimensional presentation.
It is not a very strong phenomenon, but it is noticeable. And that's it for this experiment. I'm going to listen to music. Thanks to Elsinore, I have a lot of fun here.
PS. A few days ago I was in the audio showroom. JBL HDI-3800 played. I definitely prefer Elsinore.
Health and strength. Joe!
The question is what you mean by "design theory". Looking at the Elsinore design I see a well thought out loudspeaker system. It follows the conventional design principles that are widely applied in many other loudspeakers. I therefore feel it's rather awkward (and unnecessary!) that Joe seems to promote the Elsinore design by saying that it's based on some new, undisclosed knowledge. The Elsinore speakers follow the established loudspeaker design principles in a very good way, and many listeners say it sounds good. What more could one want?
Benign drivers physically aligned and impedance corrected allow gentle slopes that preserve phase.
If I give you good directions to a place a hundred miles away it does not matter if I believe the Earth to be flat or an oblate spheroid.
A well executed design like Joe's Elsinore is independent of any belief in underlying principles.
As Sir Duke said "if it sounds good, it is good"
Just happens to also measure well.
If I give you good directions to a place a hundred miles away it does not matter if I believe the Earth to be flat or an oblate spheroid.
A well executed design like Joe's Elsinore is independent of any belief in underlying principles.
As Sir Duke said "if it sounds good, it is good"
Just happens to also measure well.
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