The "Elsinore Project" Thread

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Joe & Co.:

Both Andrew's and your speaker stands are very handsome! There was a brief discussion a couple of years ago about the benefits of raising Elsinores above the floor; my recollection is that the identified benefits focused on better isolation of the speaker itself, resulting in a more coherent sound, and elevating the speakers' sweet spot slightly so it better aligned with listening height. In any event, schubert (a friend, fellow Elsinore owner and member here) built speaker stands out of lumber and reported good results. I in turn had a set of custom speaker stands built by Sound Anchor and was very pleased with the result. Your findings agree with ours: raising Elsinores by 3 to 4 inches (8 to 10 cm) has a notably beneficial effect.

I cannot speak to the benefit of one type of spike over another and, with all due respect, wonder about undamped aluminum plates as a mounting surface. What I can report is that Sound Anchor fills their stands, leaving them very heavy and inert, and provide spikes. It may well be that high quality spikes perform better than a heavy and inert stand; I just don't know. I have no relationship with Sound Anchor other than as a satisfied customer, but their custom stands are very well made and not very expensive (indeed, they were a lot less than the price of two sets of IsoAcoustics GAIA II). But if I were to do it all over again, I might experiment with a variation on schubert's idea: build a box, fill it with sand or something similar and perch the speakers on top. Cheap and, maybe, just as effective?

Regards,
Scott
 

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Here is the answer to the riddle:

Who am I?

Three verses.

"I am everywhere and nowhere; I skim the wave and tops

of forests; I sit in the throat of the savage and at the foot
of the Negro, and I sleep in stone and the sounding metal."

"None can grasp me, all can apprehend me; I live tenfold

more intensely than any living thing, and I die a thousand-
fold deeper."

"I love the vast surface of silence; and it is my chief delight
to break it. I know no sorrow or joy, no pleasure or pain;
but I can rejoice, weep, laugh and lament all at once and
everlastingly."


Who am I?


MUSIC!

The above is a quote by Carl August Nielsen from his book "Living Music."

He also said:


"Music is inextinguishable!"
 
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I am planning on building a set of Elsinores/Hamlets as LCRs for my future home theater. I had seen that it is ideal to raise these speakers 10-15CM off of the floor, as well as tilt the tower back. I'd like to make the riser appear as part of the speaker and house the crossovers in it. The interior of the box, volume etc would remain the same. I'd just extend the front and side panels a few inches and angle the sides so that the speaker is also slightly tilted. Is there any issues with this method? If that's fine, what angle is ideal/tried and true? Does as little as 4-5 degrees work?

I have a similar question about extending the top panels a few inches to house/hide an upfiring atmos speaker as well. How much of an issue would that be? I wouldn't touch the width of the front panel or the volume of the enclosure, unless of course widening the panel helps offset any issues with lengthening the height of the panel.
 
drxlcarfreak,

Just an idea - maybe build the box without any tilt (simpler construction), and then achieve the desired tilt with speaker feet/pads/spikes? By varying the height of the "feet" you will be able to adjust the angle.

In addition to ease of construction, another benefits is that if you don't like the tilt after listening, you can have the speaker level to the floor easily by just taking out the feet/pads/spikes.
 
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I haven't seen those posts so maybe I don't have a complete understanding what I'm talking about. However, usually tilt is dependent on the distance that which you are sitting. If you're listening to them near field and maybe have a high seating position, you would need to tilt more than if you're sitting say 3 m away.

I'm not sure there is much advantage to having the crossover outside of the speaker unless you have a large point to point wired unit that won't fit through the speaker hole. The PCB that Joe has is pretty superb. Once you see it in person you realize he did not skimp on the manufacturing of it.

I agree with the post above regarding using adjustable feet. Maybe if you wanted to do something fancy do some kind of outrigger type setup where the feet extend beyond the width of the cabinet. Make it less tippy as well as being able to adjust for unlevel floors etc.

Were you able to see Joe's post regarding his new speaker feet setup?
 
Mikerodrig27,

I think ever since Joe has shared that the speakers sound better elevated by 10-15 cm, some builders (including myself) have been considering placing the XO in this "base" or free space that is outside of the main speaker cabinet.

But you are correct - Joe's XO PCB makes placing the XO inside also easy - my understanding is that the PCB with components can fit through the driver cut-outs and can be placed inside the cabinet?
 
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I'd like to make the riser appear as part of the speaker and house the crossovers in it.
I concur with previous posters that height and angle depend on the individual setup and shouldn’t be hardcoded into the design. Housing the crossover externally removes it from the vibrations and should lead to improved sound, but only your ears can tell you whether the increment is worth the effort. Joe sells two PCBs, one type fits through the speaker holes, the other doesn’t.
I have a similar question about extending the top panels a few inches to house/hide an upfiring atmos speaker as well.
The front panel/baffle width/height and driver placements must be rigidly adhered to, to the millimetre. All other dimensions can be changed as long as the internal volume remains the same. Personally I would avoid such amendments to a speaker design because it makes changing things around difficult, but if you recess your additions from the baffle it should be ok.
 
drxlcarfreak,

Just an idea - maybe build the box without any tilt (simpler construction), and then achieve the desired tilt with speaker feet/pads/spikes? By varying the height of the "feet" you will be able to adjust the angle.

In addition to ease of construction, another benefits is that if you don't like the tilt after listening, you can have the speaker level to the floor easily by just taking out the feet/pads/spikes.

I'm not sure there is much advantage to having the crossover outside of the speaker unless you have a large point to point wired unit that won't fit through the speaker hole. The PCB that Joe has is pretty superb. Once you see it in person you realize he did not skimp on the manufacturing of it.

I agree with the post above regarding using adjustable feet. Maybe if you wanted to do something fancy do some kind of outrigger type setup where the feet extend beyond the width of the cabinet. Make it less tippy as well as being able to adjust for unlevel floors etc.

Were you able to see Joe's post regarding his new speaker feet setup?

Mikerodrig27,

I think ever since Joe has shared that the speakers sound better elevated by 10-15 cm, some builders (including myself) have been considering placing the XO in this "base" or free space that is outside of the main speaker cabinet.

But you are correct - Joe's XO PCB makes placing the XO inside also easy - my understanding is that the PCB with components can fit through the driver cut-outs and can be placed inside the cabinet?

Yeah you guys are likely right, I am probably over complicating the design and shooting myself in the foot long run, but I am just trying to add some aesthetic changes/additions.

I have seen the new feet setup, and was thinking about doing that as well under my aesthetic base.

I will have to look into the PCB options.

I haven't seen those posts so maybe I don't have a complete understanding what I'm talking about. However, usually tilt is dependent on the distance that which you are sitting. If you're listening to them near field and maybe have a high seating position, you would need to tilt more than if you're sitting say 3 m away.

You may be correct. I only stumbled across one post where someone had commented on lifting and tilting theirs with improved response, and Joe mentioned that he always recommends that. However no comment on angle and whether its a case by case basis.

The front panel/baffle width/height and driver placements must be rigidly adhered to, to the millimetre. All other dimensions can be changed as long as the internal volume remains the same. Personally I would avoid such amendments to a speaker design because it makes changing things around difficult, but if you recess your additions from the baffle it should be ok.

I hear you on that, any change essentially changes Joe's design. Joe did mention up to a 3/8" bevel wouldn't affect the response on the width, and I had seen another comment that while the width of the panel is crucial, the height of it is less so. I'd also think if I was hoping that there would be some kind of info on a height tolerance. Granted, the people discussion the design are talking way above my head, but I'd think if things were crucial to the millimeter, then something like adding speaker grills and the screws mounting them to the baffles would have a negative effect as well, but I don't think I've seen any comments on that.

How far recessed do you think it needs to be not to have an impact?
 
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Yes, tilt, toe-in can to a small extent be a tune-to-taste thing. The speakers are spec'ed for 15 degrees if I remember correctly. Going off of memory.

Regarding the feet, even just some nice 1/2" aluminum bar with a "brushed" (sanded with sandpaper along a fence to have a straight grain) with througholes drilled and tapped to accept feet would work great. It doesn't have to be fancy. Something like this:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/234833633215?hash=item36ad2cdfbf:g:zwwAAOSw~-RjV~28

The above seller has a bunch of sizes. Check the length. You could put a small dado maybe 3/16" deep into the bottom to accept the aluminum. They have thicker stuff if you wanted it to look stouter.
 
Correct about the 15 degrees. I think the guiding thing here is that the tweeter should be aimed at the level of the ears and then around 10-15 degrees off axis. So if the stands are high enough so the you are level with the tweeter, then that is OK. If the tweeter height is not high enough, you have the option of tilting it up so that you achieve the same thing. Am I being clear enough? Let me know.
 
I think I understood that. My brain works way better with pictures than with words. I made a quick diagram to make absolutely sure though. I believe that's what you are referring to, right? If ear level is say 36" above the floor, we want to elevate the middle of the tweeter to 36", and then keeping that elevation rotate the tweeter 15 degrees off axis?
 

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No, the 15 degrees is laterally off axis (to the side). If your listening height is 36" and the speakers are upright and the tweeters are also 36 inch, then that should be fine. But if the tweeter is lower that 36 inch, then it may be desirable to tilt the speaker up, so that the tweeter is aimed at 36 inch at the listening position.

Now toe in the speakers so that you are listening to the speakers 10-15 degrees off axis. Toe in more if you need it a bit brighter, but never directly at the listener. Alternatively, toe it out (more off axis) to make it less bright.
 
No, the 15 degrees is laterally off axis (to the side). If your listening height is 36" and the speakers are upright and the tweeters are also 36 inch, then that should be fine. But if the tweeter is lower that 36 inch, then it may be desirable to tilt the speaker up, so that the tweeter is aimed at 36 inch at the listening position.

Now toe in the speakers so that you are listening to the speakers 10-15 degrees off axis. Toe in more if you need it a bit brighter, but never directly at the listener. Alternatively, toe it out (more off axis) to make it less bright.
Got it, that makes so much more sense! Thank you!

Now that I got that through my dense head, back to my question about extending the height of the baffle to house/shroud an upfiring atmos speaker. Is that possible, or is the edge of the baffle top relative to the top driver hardcoded into the design like the sides are?