It is clear to me that this is all getting nowhere.
What I am trying to explain is extremely difficult and I have made a mistake trying to explain it over social media.
Give me an hour and a whiteboard, and do a full and well-rounded presentation. At the end open the floor to questions. At least some in the audience will get some of it and others will not. But some headway is possible.
BTW, I am sick because ad nauseum the Norton-Thevenin equivalents get thrown back in my face (it just happened again). That's enough for me. We are clearly not on the same wavelength and I have to start again? The point has been completely missed. Same thing when you bring up hysteresis issues and eddies and... the list is endless. Too many stumbling blocks.
Re N-T-E getting constantly thrown into the mix, this sends a strawman message that I must have overlooked some really serious at the kindergarten level.
I am not that ignorant.
Of course I have allowed for N-T-E and more.
Also, I keep saying that this thread is for builders. And I am talking about building speakers and not personal egos at my expense.
DO YOU GUYS INTEND TO BUILD THEM?
Build them and listen to them, then maybe you will have an idea of what road I have traveled to get to that result. In this instance, they are my calling card.
Sorry for the tone, it really isn't me, but enough is enough.
What I am trying to explain is extremely difficult and I have made a mistake trying to explain it over social media.
Give me an hour and a whiteboard, and do a full and well-rounded presentation. At the end open the floor to questions. At least some in the audience will get some of it and others will not. But some headway is possible.
BTW, I am sick because ad nauseum the Norton-Thevenin equivalents get thrown back in my face (it just happened again). That's enough for me. We are clearly not on the same wavelength and I have to start again? The point has been completely missed. Same thing when you bring up hysteresis issues and eddies and... the list is endless. Too many stumbling blocks.
Re N-T-E getting constantly thrown into the mix, this sends a strawman message that I must have overlooked some really serious at the kindergarten level.
I am not that ignorant.
Of course I have allowed for N-T-E and more.
Also, I keep saying that this thread is for builders. And I am talking about building speakers and not personal egos at my expense.
DO YOU GUYS INTEND TO BUILD THEM?
Build them and listen to them, then maybe you will have an idea of what road I have traveled to get to that result. In this instance, they are my calling card.
Sorry for the tone, it really isn't me, but enough is enough.
The evolution of my Mk6 Elsinores
Back in 2015 I built my Mark 6 Elsinores.
I bought my drivers and crossovers from Joe.
A friend drew the CAD files so it was easy to get all the enclosure panels CNC'd. I have shared those CAD files with a number of other Elsinore builders.
I have been delighted with my Elsinores ever since, impressing many friends and visitors.
A couple of years ago I lifted my Elsinores about 90mm off the floor and then tilted the top of them back a little. Both of these moves improved the sound in my large room.
A few of months ago I decided to experiment with different drivers in Elsinores without going down the Purifi route
Firstly I looked at the specs of the original 6" SB17NRXC35-8 mid-woofer, its output drops away below 100 Hz as one might expect.
I decided to try another SB Acoustics 6" mid-woofer the SB17NBAC35-8 which has more output below 100 Hz
Yes, the sensitivity of the SB17NBAC35-8 is down 2.5dB compared to the original SB17NRXC35-8, but the SB17NBAC35-8 has more below 100 Hz.
Also the SB17NBAC35-8 has less distortion than the original SB17NRXC35-8
Then I looked at the original tweeter, the ScanSpeak D2608 and I decided to try the SB Acoustics SB26CDC-C000-4 / Ceramic dome tweeter
More than one writer suggests this series of SB Acoustics dome tweeter have VERY low distortion figures
For the crossover I'm sticking with the wonderful overall design that Joe came up with, I'm just changing some values.
For the initial recalculations of the crossover using the new drivers I decided to experiment with dropping the mid/tweeter crossover point from nearly
6 kHz down to 2.5-3 kHz so that the tweeter was doing more of the heavy lifting above 3 kHz rather than just above 6 kHz.
For some weeks I have been fine tuning the crossover taking many frequency measurements along with listening tests. I have quite literally been switching in and out crossover components to allow quick listening comparisons.
I feel I am now close to a crossover configuration that I am happy with.
I have found that with the new SB17NBAC35-8 mid-woofer drivers there is more detail in the low to mid region along with an extended bass responce.
The SB26CDC-C000-4 dome tweeter has greatly improved detail above 2.5 kHz. I'm noticing background instrument detail that previously I have not been aware of. I believe the changing of drivers in my Elsinores has produced a positive improvement.
Soon a friend will be bring over his original Mark 6 Elsinores so we can do a side by side comparison
Of course you should ask what I'm driving my Elsinores with, I have an Oppo 205 with Joe's Signature 2/Full Monty upgrade, Allen Wright(Vacuum State) designed Pre-Amp and Allen Wright(Vacuum State) designed DPA power amps
Anyway this is my $0.02 worth
All the best
Steve
Back in 2015 I built my Mark 6 Elsinores.
I bought my drivers and crossovers from Joe.
A friend drew the CAD files so it was easy to get all the enclosure panels CNC'd. I have shared those CAD files with a number of other Elsinore builders.
I have been delighted with my Elsinores ever since, impressing many friends and visitors.
A couple of years ago I lifted my Elsinores about 90mm off the floor and then tilted the top of them back a little. Both of these moves improved the sound in my large room.
A few of months ago I decided to experiment with different drivers in Elsinores without going down the Purifi route
Firstly I looked at the specs of the original 6" SB17NRXC35-8 mid-woofer, its output drops away below 100 Hz as one might expect.
I decided to try another SB Acoustics 6" mid-woofer the SB17NBAC35-8 which has more output below 100 Hz
Yes, the sensitivity of the SB17NBAC35-8 is down 2.5dB compared to the original SB17NRXC35-8, but the SB17NBAC35-8 has more below 100 Hz.
Also the SB17NBAC35-8 has less distortion than the original SB17NRXC35-8
Then I looked at the original tweeter, the ScanSpeak D2608 and I decided to try the SB Acoustics SB26CDC-C000-4 / Ceramic dome tweeter
More than one writer suggests this series of SB Acoustics dome tweeter have VERY low distortion figures
For the crossover I'm sticking with the wonderful overall design that Joe came up with, I'm just changing some values.
For the initial recalculations of the crossover using the new drivers I decided to experiment with dropping the mid/tweeter crossover point from nearly
6 kHz down to 2.5-3 kHz so that the tweeter was doing more of the heavy lifting above 3 kHz rather than just above 6 kHz.
For some weeks I have been fine tuning the crossover taking many frequency measurements along with listening tests. I have quite literally been switching in and out crossover components to allow quick listening comparisons.
I feel I am now close to a crossover configuration that I am happy with.
I have found that with the new SB17NBAC35-8 mid-woofer drivers there is more detail in the low to mid region along with an extended bass responce.
The SB26CDC-C000-4 dome tweeter has greatly improved detail above 2.5 kHz. I'm noticing background instrument detail that previously I have not been aware of. I believe the changing of drivers in my Elsinores has produced a positive improvement.
Soon a friend will be bring over his original Mark 6 Elsinores so we can do a side by side comparison
Of course you should ask what I'm driving my Elsinores with, I have an Oppo 205 with Joe's Signature 2/Full Monty upgrade, Allen Wright(Vacuum State) designed Pre-Amp and Allen Wright(Vacuum State) designed DPA power amps
Anyway this is my $0.02 worth
All the best
Steve
Hi Steve
As we discussed, your sensitivity will be lower was quite obvious: The motor assembly is the same, but the cone is heavier and this means lower sensitivity. That maybe comes down to taste, room, and more. Personally, I don't go with hard cones and the SB17NBAC is such. But it may not be the worst example to use. But if I had a chance to put this together, this driver could produce an "NBAC" version of Elsinores. But I suspect that I would need an LCR across the terminals of the top two drivers tuned to 7.5KHz based on what I am seeing.
BTW, I helped Steve to secure the SB17NBAC drivers
Steve, what about the waveguide with the SB tweeter? Have you mounted the tweeter flush without waveguide?
Re the sensitivity between the Mk-6 with MFC versus ULD, they have the same voltage sensitivity and yet the ULD achieves that with an impedance that is flat and about 1 Ohm higher.
So they have the same voltage sensitivity, but in terms of efficiency, the ULD is higher. Because they draw less current to achieve the same sound level.
As we discussed, your sensitivity will be lower was quite obvious: The motor assembly is the same, but the cone is heavier and this means lower sensitivity. That maybe comes down to taste, room, and more. Personally, I don't go with hard cones and the SB17NBAC is such. But it may not be the worst example to use. But if I had a chance to put this together, this driver could produce an "NBAC" version of Elsinores. But I suspect that I would need an LCR across the terminals of the top two drivers tuned to 7.5KHz based on what I am seeing.
BTW, I helped Steve to secure the SB17NBAC drivers
Steve, what about the waveguide with the SB tweeter? Have you mounted the tweeter flush without waveguide?
Re the sensitivity between the Mk-6 with MFC versus ULD, they have the same voltage sensitivity and yet the ULD achieves that with an impedance that is flat and about 1 Ohm higher.
So they have the same voltage sensitivity, but in terms of efficiency, the ULD is higher. Because they draw less current to achieve the same sound level.
Hey Joe,
Very interesting regarding the discussion on changing out drivers... I have a question regarding the Hamlets. I know you're not planning on a purify version.. but any thoughts on whether one of the existing crossovers would be somewhat compatible with the drivers within reasonable range? As you might remember, I'm currently using the Mk2 version using peerless drivers... which is great but considering the added clarity to voices I heard when moving from Mk5 elsinores to the ULDs, and considering I'm using it as a center channel (where its often used for voices in movies, etc), I'm quite keen to consider any way I can to move to peerless drivers for the Hamlet..
Crossover version I'm using is attached.. I'd be happy swapping to the newer SB version xover too if it would be more likely to create a good result.
Thanks very much!
Very interesting regarding the discussion on changing out drivers... I have a question regarding the Hamlets. I know you're not planning on a purify version.. but any thoughts on whether one of the existing crossovers would be somewhat compatible with the drivers within reasonable range? As you might remember, I'm currently using the Mk2 version using peerless drivers... which is great but considering the added clarity to voices I heard when moving from Mk5 elsinores to the ULDs, and considering I'm using it as a center channel (where its often used for voices in movies, etc), I'm quite keen to consider any way I can to move to peerless drivers for the Hamlet..
Crossover version I'm using is attached.. I'd be happy swapping to the newer SB version xover too if it would be more likely to create a good result.
Thanks very much!
Attachments
I am not exactly sure what you are suggesting. Using ULD drivers without a specifically developed crossover?
If so, sorry, but it is not something I could recommend. If you go back you may remember how long it took to get the MFC Hamlets out. There were reasons for this because it was quite a balance trick and it involved much work including a lot of testing and there was a realisation that the Hamlets had to do dual duty, both as a mid-channel as well as stereo pair.
Upgrading to the MFC drivers is a safe option, it's all fully developed. You need to recess the drivers by 7mm as per drawing and get the new crossover going. The box tuning should be fine where it is.
Thank you for pointing out that voices, in particular, are where the ULD Elsinores shine.
I absolutely agree with that, in fact shortly after getting them up and running I talked to Morris Swift of Serhan+Swift and I told him that if you liked voices and wanted it badly, then the extra money was definitely worth it. He then came over and had a good listen. Morris has opened up a possibility to get small runs of ULD Elsinores boxes made and provide storage (which I don't have), then DIY'ers locally here can buy the boxes and perhaps in some instances buy the fully made-up speakers. My place would the showroom where they can listen to them. first But it all comes down to whether people are willing to pay that extra ULD premium.
Cheers, Joe
Hopefully, my end game speaker project started 3 weeks ago in my basement in Austria, Europe
NRX Version
Custom enclosure design- as complicated as possible
front panel and volume are same as in original project
NRX Version
Custom enclosure design- as complicated as possible
front panel and volume are same as in original project
Attachments
Last edited:
Okay thanks a lot for the response Joe - I appreciate it. In your experience is there a significant performance improvement going to the MFC drivers in the context of the Hamlet designs?
Maybe it will interest someone.
Applies to Elsinore ULD version. It is worth checking whether the low attenuation of the basreflex port will improve the legibility of the bass. And thus the rest of the frequency response.
Below is an example. Three passes. The highest one is the open port. And then clogged with a small piece of cotton wool and a larger one.
Applies to Elsinore ULD version. It is worth checking whether the low attenuation of the basreflex port will improve the legibility of the bass. And thus the rest of the frequency response.
Below is an example. Three passes. The highest one is the open port. And then clogged with a small piece of cotton wool and a larger one.
Attachments
Finally my Elsinore ULD‘s are playing in my system. I’ve only occasionally been using the speakers due to my daughters end of school exams restricting listening time. Just 2 weeks so far.
the sound is so refined and strangely has managed to utilise the airiness of my valve amp, but made the sound tighter and added realism. I’ll write more about the sound soon, based on extended listening.
speaker grills just added.
the metal base made a big difference to the overall refined presentation of music.
my amp is an upgraded Line Magnetic 34i, which had Joe’s ’beyong triode’ mods. I’m using a cocktail audio x40 for streaming and cd. So far no vinyl played, as I still have to clean my mostly donated record collection.
the sound is so refined and strangely has managed to utilise the airiness of my valve amp, but made the sound tighter and added realism. I’ll write more about the sound soon, based on extended listening.
speaker grills just added.
the metal base made a big difference to the overall refined presentation of music.
my amp is an upgraded Line Magnetic 34i, which had Joe’s ’beyong triode’ mods. I’m using a cocktail audio x40 for streaming and cd. So far no vinyl played, as I still have to clean my mostly donated record collection.
Alfebear,
Your Elsinore ULD speakers look great - congrats on the successful build! The choice of white for the speaker cabinets is a good one - it goes well with your room.
What genres have you tried out? Do you still have the Elsinore MK6?
P.S. Noticed that you have a beautiful console - also DIY? What wood is that?
Your Elsinore ULD speakers look great - congrats on the successful build! The choice of white for the speaker cabinets is a good one - it goes well with your room.
What genres have you tried out? Do you still have the Elsinore MK6?
P.S. Noticed that you have a beautiful console - also DIY? What wood is that?
Hi @zman01
i never owned the MK6, but have heard them on numerous occasions in a good acoustic room.
So far quite a few different music genres including reggae vocals and dub, jazz piano, bass heavy track (massive attack - angel, dead prez - hip-hop, ginuwine - pony, etc), pop (Taylor Swift, Sam smith, adele, Sade), Stevie wonder - songs in the key of life, classical, others; khruangbin, blick bassy, etc
i know the speakers are are not in the optimal listening position, so will see how far I can adjust without causing a fuss in my household.
the cabinet is in spotted gum. It was made locally based on a design my wife and I put together. The furniture maker is talented, but now solely sells excellent wood slabs and makes tables. It’s very sturdy and cable management is good.
thanks for your feedback
i never owned the MK6, but have heard them on numerous occasions in a good acoustic room.
So far quite a few different music genres including reggae vocals and dub, jazz piano, bass heavy track (massive attack - angel, dead prez - hip-hop, ginuwine - pony, etc), pop (Taylor Swift, Sam smith, adele, Sade), Stevie wonder - songs in the key of life, classical, others; khruangbin, blick bassy, etc
i know the speakers are are not in the optimal listening position, so will see how far I can adjust without causing a fuss in my household.
the cabinet is in spotted gum. It was made locally based on a design my wife and I put together. The furniture maker is talented, but now solely sells excellent wood slabs and makes tables. It’s very sturdy and cable management is good.
thanks for your feedback