The "Elsinore Project" Thread

beauistheman said:
no comment on the bass??

I was hoping Rob, who has built them, would convince you that they are more than adequate in the bass. Right now, in another forum, there is an ongoing discussion re dynamic compression in conventional "dynamic" drivers/speakers. It seems that "dynamic" is a misnomer in this case as compression is clearly the opposite. The Elsinores were conceived more than four years ago re the theory of distributing and reducing thermal load, to the point that around and below 300 Hertz it is reduced by a theoretical 16:1 and also better than 4:1 into the midrange. It also helps that the final tweeter configuration also reduces it by near 3:1 - those are based on fairly solid figures that translates well into practice.

I have designed subs that go well below 20 Hertz. In my room the Elsinores are flat down to 30 Hertz using 1/6th Octave RTA measurement (pink noise test). But I never use the subs because, in spite that they don't go as low as the subs, the shear quality of the Elsinores in the bass is so far superior. I don't feel I need the subs at all.

Keep in mind that compression is at the highest at the initial of the transient, then ultra-low compression in the Elsinores gives you the impression that it takes little power or not great amounts of SPL to "get them going", whereas it is common with commercial speakers this size usually needs a "muscle" amp and and then turn up the wick, before they start sounding dynamic. Also, incredibly low compression translates into an ease and impression that there is unbelievable headroom that can be instantly tapped into.

BTW, another way that others have achieved low compression with dynamic drivers, is the use of Line Sources (but more difficult to get genuine extension). But a good pair of those are quite a bit more expensive. The technology in the Elsinores gets you much of the same advantages with moderate cost and real bass power.

So if bass is your thing, then I am sure that you will not be disappointed, but keep in mind that they do much more than just that.

Joe R.
 
beauistheman said:
so you`ve tried these? They deliver nice bass?

Sorry for the late response guys.

beauistheman, I built these speakers towards the end of last year and I am still extremely satisfied with their bass performance (as well their performance in general) one year down the track

They have a very musical bass and can load the room with some serious pressure and punch when you turn the wick up, which is soooo easy to do as they remain so crisp and clear, even at stupid levels.

They also excel when used in a home theatre setup and I don't run any subs with them for either two channel listening or when watching movies.
 
I've been wanting to build a home theater setup and have heard so much good about these speakers now that i desited to build elsinore speakers :)
I've also heard a 2 way speaker with the Nomex drivers brother and the HDS tweeter, it soundet fantastik and i can only imagine that these speakers will be amazing to, Amadeus HDS-6D The kit in the bottom, in danish only sorry.

planning on using them as sur/back speakers, but laked a little someting in the 2 bottom actaves for stereo use

but i must have missed the final conclusion on the center speaker, how did it end up? 16ohms MTM?
Is it possible to make it a MMTMM, by simply moving one speaker unit to the other side? size is not a problem ;)
 
CCU said:
...but i must have missed the final conclusion on the center speaker, how did it end up? 16ohms MTM?

Nothing came of it. I offered to do the rest if a person built the boxes (I think Rob323 was toying with the idea and he is a couple of hours drive from here) and brought it here. Alas, the offer was not accepted and I moved on.

CCU said:
Is it possible to make it a MMTMM, by simply moving one speaker unit to the other side? size is not a problem ;)

Not sure if I understand the question. Oh, maybe I do. Hmm... it would make for a BIG centre speaker.

Something occurred to me, but need to know the answer: Are you able to do pink noise 1/3rd Octave in-room tests? As this is a centre speaker, perhaps diffraction loss is not that critical. And what we have in mind should be able to tweak by ear. Pink noise tests would help.

I think we could get somewhere if you are willing? I think a 16 Ohm MTM is possible. We are not starting totally from scratch...

Grevinge? I know where that is. I was born in Frederiksberg, not far from Carlsberg (and the Zoo), although I am more partial to Tuborg Green. :)

Joe R.
 
Joe Rasmussen said:


Nothing came of it. I offered to do the rest if a person built the boxes (I think Rob323 was toying with the idea and he is a couple of hours drive from here) and brought it here. Alas, the offer was not accepted and I moved on.


I still have plans for these but they probably won't happen until mid to late next year Joe (too many hobbies, not enough time).

I'm a little more than a couple of hours drive, closer to about 11 hours ;) .
 
i am unfortunetly not able to make the measurements, since i don't own any equipment. also the reason why i am building speaker kits

ups i didn't mean a mmtmm but a BMTMB, Hope you get what i mean from the picture i added.

And i must say i also favor Tuborg green :D
 

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im currently in the process of building LCR elsinore speakers. Regarding the centre design im just following the details as listed on page 4 of this thread. All parts are cut and im awaiting binding posts before assembling all the boxes. Im holding off purchasing corssover components until all the boxes are built.
 
rob323 said:

<SNIP>

They have a very musical bass and can load the room with some serious pressure and punch when you turn the wick up, which is soooo easy to do as they remain so crisp and clear, even at stupid levels.

<SNIP>

I have heard Rob's speakers and can vouch for the "adequacy" of the bass.
I refer you to the lyrics of "Sonic Attack" by Hawkwind. W'oh! That dates me! :)

Doug
 
BL4S7ER said:
im currently in the process of building LCR elsinore speakers. Regarding the centre design im just following the details as listed on page 4 of this thread. All parts are cut and im awaiting binding posts before assembling all the boxes. Im holding off purchasing corssover components until all the boxes are built.

It seems that the centre channel and two-way for those who want compact (relatively speaking) stereo pair as well as for other multi-channel purposes, will be a reality in 2009.

Since you are in Perth, if/when you have boxes ready before Rob does (he is a couple of hours away), I can give you a suggested crossover for the time being, to get yours up and going. But I need to arrange with Rob to actually get a physical box here and then the final tweaking and fully recommended crossover. But based on my current measurement of the Elsinores I should be able to come up with something for you first that you can later just update to the final product/crossover.

The same applies to anybody else wherever they are. The results and development will be reported here.

We can make this a team work and anybody willing to build the box right now or within a short time, will effectively become part of the project. How is that for encouragement? :)

I have been thinking about the name, I propose this be called The "Hamlet Project" Loudspeaker . That fits into the same name scheme as Elsinore. Any thoughts?

From here on it is up to you guys.

Joe R.
 
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Great idea. great project name

Joe,

Excellent! The proposed Hamlet project is very good news to me.

I actually bought extra mid/bass drivers with the Elsinore batch of 8; planning to do "companion speakers" for Elsinore.

Unfortunately I can't just yet start building boxes; I'm still working on my Elsinores. Expect to complete them in about 10 weeks.

Francois
 
Re: Great idea. great project name

Francois G said:
Joe,

Excellent! The proposed Hamlet project is very good news to me.

Alright, it sounds like Hamlet in 2009 will happen. All interested parties stay posted.

Within a couple of weeks I will post a provisional Hamlet crossover based on what available modeling material I have here.

I am fairly certain that this will be close to the final confirmed crossover and hopefully only resistor values needs to be changed, likely two. These can be tweaked by ear before I get to do physical measurements from what I am hoping will be a box coming from Rob, as he is closest. One resistor will affect the diffraction loss and the other fine tune the output level of the tweeter. The LCR 6.8R/3.3uF/0.47mH on the MidBass will be exactly the same as the Elsinores and so will the 0.82mH/68uF null on the tweeter. So we do not have to entirely reinvent the wheel, but get diffraction loss (affects tonal balance) and tweeter level (brightness balance) right.

Joe R.
 
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Variarion in crossover inductors

I recently received my crossover inductors and just for kicks measured their inductances on a fancy HP impedance analyzer.

It was a bit disappointing to find that most inductances were about 5% low of the specified value. I measured the impedances at 100 Hz and 1000Hz and found them to be close to each other but still about 5% low. I don't know what current the analyzer actually uses in the measurement, but it is capable of 1 amp maximum.

Does anyone have experience with such inductor variations and the effect on the Elsinore sound?

This got me thinking about specifications for inductors used in crossovers. At what frequency/current does the manufacturer specify inductance?
 
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danieljw said:
for low inductance values 5% is quite a good .... what brand of inductors are they ?

Thanks for the replies and reassurances.

The brand is ERSE, which I believe does good work. It appears that the dealer used higher value coils and unwound them to match my lower value requirements. Could be that their inductance meter was off.

One day I might try to improve on the accuracy and precision of the coils by adding a few windings to the low inductances. That's the luxury of having the crossover outside the enclosure.:D

Best,
Francois
 
Hi Guys

Here is a mini review of the Elsinores just finished, somewhere in the US. His name is Joel and I gather he reads these pages:

Part 1:

Anyway, Got the Elsinores working late last night and spent 3 hours with them and they sound amazing. I love the their ability to go loud without ear fatigue or shouting etc - -not over-dynamic I guess is part reason [I think he means that dynamics are not overly exaggerated - ed]. Soundstage, treble, bass, driver integration is all very good. I'm in analytical mode right now and very excited about listening the rest of the week. Going to spend Friday evening with two friends who also have interest in this area and interested in their thoughts....

I have many things to say... but have time restraints and really just want to continue listening during the evenings, especially LP's.

Thank you for this design and your time.. I'm very impressed.

Part 2:

I continue to be captivated by these speakers. The balance makes them sound complete. The midrange is wonderfully natural. Acoustic music is pure magic. I crank rock recordings for a couple of hours and feel the energy, presence and openness and leave the room with the same ears as when I entered..

I want to hear them for a long period with several amplifiers, the three I'm trying have each there own character I have one small issue and that is that the closed hi hat sounds funny, unnatural in some way? I started the first night with a 40c Chinese 2.7 ohm resistor on the tweeter. The next day I received a Mundorf 2.7 ohm resistor and swapped it out and the improvement on overall treble was huge but the hi hat thing is still noticeable?? Maybe tubes are the answer or better resister still... Maybe it's a few recordings, need more time.

With this small issue with closed hi hat, the Elsinore is still the most satisfying speaker I have heard. I can remember the sound of every kilo-buck system I've heard and I found an anomaly with each that would keep me from buying and this includes the overly lively treble from Audio Note speakers (inner reflections from baffle) but purity (weight, harmonics and edge I guess) of the fundamental part of the notes on the jazz recording I heard is still in my memory...Must be the AN tube amps.

My friends were very impressed.. The first thing that was said by Jay when they walked into the room is "the sax on that recording normally sounds too strong" He got it right away. I heard 3D many times and both guys thought at least $10k at a retail shop. What happened fairly quickly though is they wanted to listen to the music and they forget about how it was being generated. We did question the amount of ambient information and that they were not open enough and moving them further apart was asked of me and I rejected it at that time because I new it didn't work with some other speakers and was thinking about some other things that it might be...so we left them for the evening.

Well, stupid me. I spread them out now (close to 10 feet now with inside panels visible) so my first paragraph stands.. Now when I pull out familiar recordings, they have all the air that I remember.. Some one said "monitor with a heart" I feel this way when I listen....

My friend are coming back soon with the new placement and they will be impressed.

I'll give you their comments and you can quote anything that has or will be said.

Joel


My comments:

Experimenting with room positioning can bring about startling improvements. Not that the Elsinores are room unfriendly perse' - but they can interact somewhat more with the room than speakers with less bandwidth.

Also, they can be spread apart more than most speakers can and I believe this has to do with good vector summing both on and off axis spread. Joel seemed to have discovered that.

That resistor in series with the tweeter is critical. Get the best quality you can and/or experiment. I use Dales.

I think the hi hat issue that he is hinting it could be an amplifier issue, but must be careful as I haven't heard the problem in his system. But I feel I am on comfortable saying so as others haven't mentioned this as a problem. But I am sure Joel will have a chance to try other/more amps and if he could get his hands on a really good tube amp, I am definitely biased towards tubes (but I do solid state stuff as well).

So guys, your comments?

Joe R.