Hi all,
I "functionally finished" my Elsinores late last year and made the often touted error of installing before completing the build. So they sit in my room in resplendant MDF glory.
Of course, they sound great, even without proper testing and tuning / room treatment.
I'll get around to uploading my pics of the build shortly. I do intend on decommissioning soon for finishing, but I have aquired some TT goodies recently.
I "functionally finished" my Elsinores late last year and made the often touted error of installing before completing the build. So they sit in my room in resplendant MDF glory.
Of course, they sound great, even without proper testing and tuning / room treatment.
I'll get around to uploading my pics of the build shortly. I do intend on decommissioning soon for finishing, but I have aquired some TT goodies recently.
They would be heightened MK5:s!
If she is going there (by car, sometimes she is flying) I can go with here, go over from Helsingborg to Helsingör on some of the days, deliver the speakers, visit the festival (not really my cup of tea but anyway) listen to some nice sound, spend some time in Cph and go back to Helsingborg. It might not be that the speakers will be standing there from the very start of the festival to the very end, but maybe part of the time. But to start with I need to check if she is going to be around the area (Helsingborg, Lund, Cph, Kalundborg) about that dates.
Alas, grateful for you putting your hands up as a possible, but it may be too much to ask for and there is the fact that it is closed to 100 persons (not an open hi-fi show). So let us put it in the too-hard-basket.
Sitting here since six weeks with a broken thigh neck bone with 3 4-inch nails in it travelling 1000km return trip is not hard. But you decide.
Hi Joe!
I have followed your thread for a long time, and have now decided to trust all the very positive reviews about your construction. Living in Denmark, I have to accept all you considerations, without having a listen, and still I have a couple of questions.
First; The newly discovered benefit, of raising the speaker, do not surprise me, and I´ll explain why.
MTM speakers will among other issues, have problems with acoustic cancellation between the drivers, if they are spaced too long from each other. (You know the theory). It will result in a lack of clarity due to the frequency response, and problems if you are not listening precisely on the axis of the tweeter. Imaging of the speakers is also affected.
The EP crossover frequency are quite high for a MTM construction, with 6.5" woofers, and my question is, would it not be better to rise the height of the tweeter and minimize the distance between the woofers voice coils as much as possible? Even by routing the waveguide, so the woofers frame just misses the waveguides outher opening? But remaining the upper woofers position on the faceplate.
Every conventional theory suggests this.
Correct me, if I´m wrong, I´ll follow your recommendations!
-and, I have an very favourable offer, to buy an Audio Note Kit One amp, 300B single ended, will this amplifier drive the EP good?
Best regards
I have followed your thread for a long time, and have now decided to trust all the very positive reviews about your construction. Living in Denmark, I have to accept all you considerations, without having a listen, and still I have a couple of questions.
First; The newly discovered benefit, of raising the speaker, do not surprise me, and I´ll explain why.
MTM speakers will among other issues, have problems with acoustic cancellation between the drivers, if they are spaced too long from each other. (You know the theory). It will result in a lack of clarity due to the frequency response, and problems if you are not listening precisely on the axis of the tweeter. Imaging of the speakers is also affected.
The EP crossover frequency are quite high for a MTM construction, with 6.5" woofers, and my question is, would it not be better to rise the height of the tweeter and minimize the distance between the woofers voice coils as much as possible? Even by routing the waveguide, so the woofers frame just misses the waveguides outher opening? But remaining the upper woofers position on the faceplate.
Every conventional theory suggests this.
Correct me, if I´m wrong, I´ll follow your recommendations!
-and, I have an very favourable offer, to buy an Audio Note Kit One amp, 300B single ended, will this amplifier drive the EP good?
Best regards
Hi Helge
Just a quick one and a bit later I will give you a more considered reply.
I saw your name Helge in your profile, my given name is in fact Bjørn Ingolf Rasmussen and I was born in Frderiksberg at the same hospital as Michael Laudrup (most here would not know that name, but put the name into YouTube and watch something special).
BTW, the name Helge, the 'g' is a soft and not hard 'g' - right?
Back shortly. Oh, whereabouts are you, in København (Copenhagen)?
I will be touching down in Kastrup six weeks from today, October 24th.
Cheers, Joe
Just a quick one and a bit later I will give you a more considered reply.
I saw your name Helge in your profile, my given name is in fact Bjørn Ingolf Rasmussen and I was born in Frderiksberg at the same hospital as Michael Laudrup (most here would not know that name, but put the name into YouTube and watch something special).
BTW, the name Helge, the 'g' is a soft and not hard 'g' - right?
Back shortly. Oh, whereabouts are you, in København (Copenhagen)?
I will be touching down in Kastrup six weeks from today, October 24th.
Cheers, Joe
Hi, Bjørn!
I´m actually a native Norwegian, but has been living in Dk. for almost 30 years. I know your birth hospital well, as I worked there as a psychologist, when living in Frederiksberg for a number of years. Also, I worked on a daily basis, with the late Steen Duelund, whom you might know. I had a part in developing some of the products, his brand live well on today... Today I live in Aarhus, teaching, and visit The beautiful city of Copenhagen at least once a month.
My name is in Norwegian, prounounced with a hard "l", and in danish, as you suggests, with a soft l.
And Michael Laudrup is indeed a legend, in Denmark and Barcelona FC...! Both becauce of a genius midfield play, and a role-setting gentlemans approce among players, also as an international trainer. Actually, he was fired as a trainer in Russia, for treating the players too respectful. He did not even hit them in the face, when they failed to make a goal...
Nice to hear that you will visit Denmark, if you would like it, I would very much like to meet you and have a good talk over a nice meal, about denmark, music and speaker/amplifier projects. Just let me know. My personal mail is: helgebh@gmail.com
I´m actually a native Norwegian, but has been living in Dk. for almost 30 years. I know your birth hospital well, as I worked there as a psychologist, when living in Frederiksberg for a number of years. Also, I worked on a daily basis, with the late Steen Duelund, whom you might know. I had a part in developing some of the products, his brand live well on today... Today I live in Aarhus, teaching, and visit The beautiful city of Copenhagen at least once a month.
My name is in Norwegian, prounounced with a hard "l", and in danish, as you suggests, with a soft l.
And Michael Laudrup is indeed a legend, in Denmark and Barcelona FC...! Both becauce of a genius midfield play, and a role-setting gentlemans approce among players, also as an international trainer. Actually, he was fired as a trainer in Russia, for treating the players too respectful. He did not even hit them in the face, when they failed to make a goal...
Nice to hear that you will visit Denmark, if you would like it, I would very much like to meet you and have a good talk over a nice meal, about denmark, music and speaker/amplifier projects. Just let me know. My personal mail is: helgebh@gmail.com
It's a small world, my younger brother Jannik lives in Kongvinger on the Glomma river, near the border to Sweden.
Don't speak much Danish, but I can say 'rødgrød med fløde' (to others here, this phrase is used by Danes to torment foreigners into repeating it) as I have lived here in Sydney since 1965 other than 2 years. My sister Bodil lives in Hellebaek and works in Helsingør (Elsinore is Danish) near the castle, and part of the story behind the name of the speakers.
Now back to that topic. Yes, I agree about what you say about MTM arrays, but I went to Melbourne Audio Club in May and the Elsinores just sounded like the got swallowed up in that room, it was definitely the acoustics. Then one of the organisers mentioned he had some 12 inch stands and I took no delay in saying "let's try that" and Wow! The difference was dramatic. When back in Sydney, it got me thinking and I raised them, not by 30cm, but by 10cm, and I liked what I heard.
Re spacing on the front panel, there are reasons for the way the Elsinores drivers have been spaced. This was arrived at very carefully, the spacing is right for a number of reasons, like the mechanical integrity and considering that most would be using MDF. Also, since all 6" drivers operate under 400 Hertz, I want the vertical spacing to take advantage of the height of the box.
Now you are one of the first to mention that the Crossover to the Tweeter being as high as it is. Many thinks it should be 2KHz for that driver. I am around 3KHz and very comfortable about that. I have done exhaustive tests on this as well as modeling the Crossover, and done it over an arch of 60 degrees as well as cumulative (CSD) plots over the same arch. Something interesting showed up. As soon as you go off axis, the picture changes FR wise and the on axis FR is tamed quickly. I have recommended, indeed have modeled the speaker, to be listened off axis, 12-15 degrees.
If CSD plots are relatively clean, what causes the on axis FR deviations.
Here, may I quote Lynn Olson on my approach:
"It is certainly true that high-quality cone drivers typically have a single well-defined peak at the top of the range, and this single peak is amenable to notch-filter equalization. I agree with Joe's comment these clean, well-defined peaks are not breakup, but are artefacts of the cone shape itself. They are especially evident in top-of-the-line cones with low inductance figures - in a more typical high-inductance driver, the peak is intentionally masked by voice-coil inductance. Since VC inductance is quite nonlinear, low inductance is a good thing - but it does make the FR look different than you might expect."
www.customanalogue.com/elsinore/elsinore_20.htm
Ergo, good speakers can actually measure worse. The SB-A driver in EL6 has state-of-the-art low VC inductance. Since it measures differently at 1KHz and 10KHz, then clearly non-linear.
I actually proved this FR thing (and Lynn saw the result) by measuring two drivers, they were identical in every respect, motor assembly, VC, basket etc, except one had a polypropylene layered cone with concave dust cap and the other was a synthetic fibre cone. Other that the concave dust cap being slightly smaller on the latter, the cone shape, the roll surround, well, you get the idea.
The FR response and behaviour were near identical. Both had fairly clean underlying CSD plots, none of the lined up with FR aberrations. And both improved as you moved off axis.
So I have coined the following: Below the 'Jordan Knee' the shape of the box/front panel diffraction will dominate. Above the 'Knee' diffraction within the shape of the cone will intrude. The 'Knee' is the transition frequency where the driver ceases to behave as a piston and goes into some controlled (hopefully) radiation modes, cone flexing, in effect reducing radiating area. Complex modes occur - not always resonance related.
Underlying all this is the fundamental idea to allow the drivers to obey current rather than voltage. I am not going to say too much, as we tried to get a conversation going and now know that there is a danger of it getting trolled. The voltage model is so powerful and all pervasive, it is difficult to get a discussion going.
More about that if we can meet up. Aarhus is a place that I have not really seen, nor spent any time looking. In 2002 I was with the late Allen Wright at Aarhus Triode Festival, started by Kurt Steffensen (held at a school in Odder during school holidays), that morphed into the European Triode Festival - and I will be at ETF17 in Tisvildeleje, not far from where my sister lives. So yes, I would love to meet up and likely around November 1st. I will bring you my laptop and show you some things I believe will intrigue you.
I spent five months 'home' in 1980 and got to know Steen then. Am I wrong, but did he have some DCM Time Windows speakers in those days? I know that Allen had a pair here in Sydney.
BTW, there are few others in the Aarhus area that I would love to meet up with. That area has great history inn the annals of loudspeaker industry, Ejvind Skaaning and Ragnar Lian (he was Norwegian too) and others. I gather Troels Gravesen is not far away too. Do you see any of the current crop of guys? That bit about obeying current is something we are working on here in Sydney and I am also trying to get the guys at Monash University down here interested as there are things that needs to be worked out. It is not a little bit exciting and if we meet up, I think this will be of interest to you.
Late here.
Cheers, Bjørn (Joe next time
)
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Thank you for your, indeed, very interesting rapport, from mr. Rasmussens considerations, experience and bank of knowledge. You appear to be one of the, sadly few, free spirits in the business.
You make me re-think a lot of issues, and remember Steen Duelund´s and mine approach to a challenge; "The most important, for finding the right answer, is to ask the right question". Well, I guess we can continue our dialogue elsewhere, and hopefully meet in person, here in Denmark.
I actually meant to see you in Copenhagen, but the guys you mention, here in Aarhus, will also for sure guarantee an interesting meeting. I do not know them in person, but well by name and works.
Ejvind Skaanings son, Per, is also an interesting and very sympatic guy. Specialist in high-end speaker units production, see web: AudioTechnology by Skaaning
Actually, ScanSpeak, Dynaudio and Vifa, among others, are also in the area.
And Trolls, well, remember that they originates from, and some thinks still exists, here in Scandinavia. (You see my point...) Also, when I quietly, sit on the terrace outside my timber cottage in the south Norwegian mountains, and dusk appears, I´m not quite sure myself...;-)
The voltage/current amp issue, is very interesting!
My main ability, in developing processes, is to view the subject from above, and ask questions from different angles, until the important question, obvious for all, appears. And, I am given a pair of very sensible ears, so for instance, when a track in an album, is out of phase, I get uncomfortable and have to reverse the polarity immediately.
Your theory about speaker units cone behaviour vs. shape, could easily become a major answer to some of the unanswered questions about why a unit sounds as it does, but conventional measurements can not explain.
You have given me a lot to think about, we´ll be in touch.
Best regards
You make me re-think a lot of issues, and remember Steen Duelund´s and mine approach to a challenge; "The most important, for finding the right answer, is to ask the right question". Well, I guess we can continue our dialogue elsewhere, and hopefully meet in person, here in Denmark.
I actually meant to see you in Copenhagen, but the guys you mention, here in Aarhus, will also for sure guarantee an interesting meeting. I do not know them in person, but well by name and works.
Ejvind Skaanings son, Per, is also an interesting and very sympatic guy. Specialist in high-end speaker units production, see web: AudioTechnology by Skaaning
Actually, ScanSpeak, Dynaudio and Vifa, among others, are also in the area.
And Trolls, well, remember that they originates from, and some thinks still exists, here in Scandinavia. (You see my point...) Also, when I quietly, sit on the terrace outside my timber cottage in the south Norwegian mountains, and dusk appears, I´m not quite sure myself...;-)
The voltage/current amp issue, is very interesting!
My main ability, in developing processes, is to view the subject from above, and ask questions from different angles, until the important question, obvious for all, appears. And, I am given a pair of very sensible ears, so for instance, when a track in an album, is out of phase, I get uncomfortable and have to reverse the polarity immediately.
Your theory about speaker units cone behaviour vs. shape, could easily become a major answer to some of the unanswered questions about why a unit sounds as it does, but conventional measurements can not explain.
You have given me a lot to think about, we´ll be in touch.
Best regards
Hi,
was just revisiting this site and saw your post. The post is quite old, but i live in Duvall (just east of Redmond) and have a set of MKV's if you'd like to listen.
Cheers,
Scott
I´ve just had the pleasure to meet Joe a couple of days, during his stay here in Denmark. It was an pleasant and interesting experience, where he first presented some of his theories, about speaker cone geometry, and other seldom focused parameters, Vs. performance. And later, which appeared to be a major subject of his research during the last 20 plus years, optimal designed power supply and radical re-built design, both in a dac/line stage, and an basic El-34 coupled tube amplifier, that he had brought with him.
At a visit to a internationally very well known professional speaker designer here in Aarhus, these were tested against well-known mid-high end electronics. Also tube amp. This experience is the most radical eye-opening audio event, I have had in the last 35 years. Joes basically humble 25-watts tube amp, and also OPPO Dac/line stage, both totally re-designed by him, simply opened the 87dB/1watt 3-way speakers, to present a live, natural, dynamic in an new sense, extreme engaging and totally wide-banded you are there- experience. Not by focus on any parameters, no, everything was so integrated, awe-producing authentic dynamic, and natural, that no written description in any way, can explain the experience. I simply have a hard time to understand it, and do not normally use big words, as I have used and tested a large number of serious Hifi-devices in my time.
These electronics, represent a new level of reproduction of music, that more than anything, supports his theories. I can not live without this, and an order of, first, an amp, will be sent to Sydney...! I also now own a pair of his tweeter wave guides, they look/"sound" in a league of their own, pics do them no justice. Highly recommended to buy when still in stock.
Thanks for your visit, Joe. You are a both a highly symphatic and educational shearing guy, I hope too see you again.
Best regards, HelgeH
At a visit to a internationally very well known professional speaker designer here in Aarhus, these were tested against well-known mid-high end electronics. Also tube amp. This experience is the most radical eye-opening audio event, I have had in the last 35 years. Joes basically humble 25-watts tube amp, and also OPPO Dac/line stage, both totally re-designed by him, simply opened the 87dB/1watt 3-way speakers, to present a live, natural, dynamic in an new sense, extreme engaging and totally wide-banded you are there- experience. Not by focus on any parameters, no, everything was so integrated, awe-producing authentic dynamic, and natural, that no written description in any way, can explain the experience. I simply have a hard time to understand it, and do not normally use big words, as I have used and tested a large number of serious Hifi-devices in my time.
These electronics, represent a new level of reproduction of music, that more than anything, supports his theories. I can not live without this, and an order of, first, an amp, will be sent to Sydney...! I also now own a pair of his tweeter wave guides, they look/"sound" in a league of their own, pics do them no justice. Highly recommended to buy when still in stock.
Thanks for your visit, Joe. You are a both a highly symphatic and educational shearing guy, I hope too see you again.
Best regards, HelgeH
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The answer to many questions lies in asking them clearly. Then the answer lies within the question, you follow?
Seems to me the cabinet hasn't changed much. The filters merely adjust to different drivers. We have had the Peerless 830875 and 830874 and an SB acoustics woofer in all the versions. Peerless and Vifa at the top end. Early ones seem to have a constructed horn, later ones use a machined metal horn. Which do you have?
This RELATES to the Mk 5:
Elsinore Data Gathering
The filter schematics do get confusing, but generally include the drivers which must clarify. The MK 6 has considerable impedance correction.
Seems to me the cabinet hasn't changed much. The filters merely adjust to different drivers. We have had the Peerless 830875 and 830874 and an SB acoustics woofer in all the versions. Peerless and Vifa at the top end. Early ones seem to have a constructed horn, later ones use a machined metal horn. Which do you have?
This RELATES to the Mk 5:
Elsinore Data Gathering
The filter schematics do get confusing, but generally include the drivers which must clarify. The MK 6 has considerable impedance correction.
Hi,
I have all parts for a mk5 version build, but I need to get some answers regarding the box and I also need the complete parts list for rhe crossovers for mk5.
Has the box changed in any way between the mk 5 and mk 6? If it has, in which way?
The crossovers, have they changed between mk5 and mk6? If so, in which way?
I also wonder if it is okay to make the waveguide in wood, like oak or something similar hard type of wood? Or does it need to be built and cnc'd in metal?
I thank you for any help as figuring out if there is any changes between mk5 and mk6 is very difficult at the customanalouge site.
It is a superior design and cant wait until I can finish them! But to be able to do so, I need answers on these questions.
Please help me if you know the answers.
Thabk you.
I have all parts for a mk5 version build, but I need to get some answers regarding the box and I also need the complete parts list for rhe crossovers for mk5.
Has the box changed in any way between the mk 5 and mk 6? If it has, in which way?
The crossovers, have they changed between mk5 and mk6? If so, in which way?
I also wonder if it is okay to make the waveguide in wood, like oak or something similar hard type of wood? Or does it need to be built and cnc'd in metal?
I thank you for any help as figuring out if there is any changes between mk5 and mk6 is very difficult at the customanalouge site.
It is a superior design and cant wait until I can finish them! But to be able to do so, I need answers on these questions.
Please help me if you know the answers.
Thabk you.
Wow, thanks. You took the time to type a reply, to a neewbie, that you found the answers in less than a half hour. Great for you!
But, as stated I am a NEWBIE, so instead of typing a kind of know it all reply, why not help me instead and maybe give me a hint on what to search for, search terms or pages that gives the answers?
Thanks for the help by the way...
But, as stated I am a NEWBIE, so instead of typing a kind of know it all reply, why not help me instead and maybe give me a hint on what to search for, search terms or pages that gives the answers?
Thanks for the help by the way...