Any Experience with Troels Gravesen Designs???

[mlammert]

Hi all,

First, thank you for all the replies that I got from my first post regarding good first projects... Probably the best advise I received was to not skimp too much on the first project -- really do a good bang-for-the-investment project... I like that idea...

I have been searching for pretty much complete plans and consturction diary type web sites and many people suggested Troels Gravesen (http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm) and Tony Gee (http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/)...

I like Tony Gee's designs but they are a bit pricy for my very first ever project... And, it seems that a lot of assumptions are made throughout the plans and write-ups... I am not experienced enough right now to make assumptions and feel I need more specific plans...

So, I really like Troels' web site and the overall price and write-ups seem right on par with what I am looking at for a first project and my experience level...

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm

My question is:
Does anybody have personal experience constructing any of these projects and if so, could you give some advise and opinions on why you chose one particular project by Troels over a different one???

My preferences:
1) I think I want a 3-way (or more) system... Do not want to be dependent on a sub right now... I like the floorstander designs...

2) This will only be for true stereo listening...

3) I listen to a lot of female vocals (Paula Cole, Tori Amos, Smoosh, Tera MacLean, Charllotte Martin, etc)... Not into pop but like some rock an droll and classic rock... Do not listen to classical... Little jazz... Little heavy metal (Tool, NIN)...

4) The original listen room will be small... 10wide x 12deep x 8high
It has one window (10' wall) and one door (other 10' wall)...

One last thing:
Any recommendations on CD Player/Pre-Amp/Amps would also be appreciated... This is truly my first system (entirely)...

Thanks agian everyone,
Mark

 

[mlankton]

I don't think you can do any better than Troel's designs. If Troel's were working commercially he would probably be regarded as one of the top speaker designers.
Just remember about Troel's projects: most of them are 4 ohm and relatively low sensitivity, so make sure your amp is up to snuff if you have your heart set on one of his speakers.

 

[tktran303]

Troels has a very nice website with lots of pictures, good documentation, with many many projects to try.

Many are not optimised to the n-th degree, but is still better than many other projects out there in free-to-DIY land

You could do a lot worse.

Don't get into the trap of throwing money away at expensive drivers, only to use off-the-shelf crossovers, online calculators, or start off with a one-size-fits-all crossover like the AR series XO and tweak til the cows come home (absolutely no measurement equipment=shooting in the dark til you get it right)

 

[Landroval]

For lower cost and great value check out also projects by John Krutke:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/

 

[ScottG]

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/PMS.htm

This is the design I most often recomend here..

Its a very good design AND the documentation is prob. the best you'll find. I'd change ALL the capacitors however, to SA grade Clarity Caps (which provide the best sound for the money).

http://www.e-speakers.com/products/claritycap.htm

......................................................................................................

as to other components..

DIY:

Source: Squeezbox2 and

http://diyparadise.com/dackit/1545bdackit.html

Volume control:

http://www.intactaudio.com/atten.html

Amplifer:

http://www.twistedpearaudio.com/

................................................................................................

Or purchased (non-diy) equipment:

Source:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/raysonic/cd128.html

Integrated Amp:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/redwine4/30.html

 

[kyselym]

can't help to write st.

if you are going to build your first equip. I suggest to start with something easy and relatively cheap.
as for speakers (cheaper ones):
you could try:
Tony G's DD8mk-II in close box and add L26 as subs (2.5way design)
or
Roman Bednarek's alpheus
http://www.rjbaudio.com/Alpheus/alpheus.html
or
Troels PMS
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/PMS.htm

I own the first one (tony's) and it sounds really good. Would like to try Troels (to comapre soft cones with Al)but not sure if 22cm driver would satisfy me...maybe there will be some bigger brother later

as for other equip. don't spend so much money its not worth. NAD power amp and preamp will perform very well or you can try www.aldax.cz they are cheep and very good(like NAD) pages are in CZ but they also speak english. just look for "Login, Kontakty" there is email.

don't let low powers of aldax modules fool you it's just because their 50w is true sine power and this amp will play much louder than any comercial designs you could buy. I own SPV100P and they are great amps! aprox. $130 for 2xSpv100P + toroid (protections are included) but would recomend SPM100 or 250 for begginer (but a bit more expensive) for more info you can contact me on email(subject: Aldax)

 

[ocaukrell]

As a starter my suggestion is,
start with troels sp95's, fairly cost effective and easy to build.
Use cheapish bits for the cabinet and xover, I dont believe it will make a big difference.

Wait for it . . . .

the reason I say use cheapish bits is that after you have built these, you will have a fair idea of how they will perform.
A trial speaker if you will.
Then move onto his ekta's reuse the drivers from the sp95's and throw the rest out.
It's what I did.

the ektas are faily more expensive due to the midrange, but they are so far ahead. I also love female vocals (Kate bush)

See link in sig or search here for ekta.......

 

[andy2]

It depends on your tastes. I've built about 3 pairs of speakers based on his design. On most of his speakers, especially the early designs, they tend to be laid back and voiced for easy listening. His design tends to be very balanced and the sound has an even-handed characteristic and good for long term listening. He did modified some of his earlier designs such as the AcapellaSeas and TJL into more neutral voicing. Basically, most of his design frequency response, they tend to have a 1db dip in the critical midrange for easy listening. You also notice that the freq. response has a gradual decrease from the bass to the high freq.

But having said that, all of his speakers are very carefully designed. After listening to his speakers for awhile, there is something right about the way they sound. If you want to know how his speaker sound like, you could audition speakers from Viena Acoustic since they have a similar sound, at least that is how I feel.

I am a regular visitor of his website and I feel like his designs are more and more complete. And from reading his documentation, his latter designs are perhaps a bit more complete, and sophisticated than his earlier designs. I would recommend some of his latter designs such as the TJL3, PMS, AcapellaSeas, and the Stradivari clone.

 

[andy2]

I don't think you can do any better than Troel's designs. If Troel's were working commercially he would probably be regarded as one of the top speaker designers.
Just remember about Troel's projects: most of them are 4 ohm and relatively low sensitivity, so make sure your amp is up to snuff if you have your heart set on one of his speakers.

I feel like I have to make a correction for the impedance. I think most of his designs have very friendly impedance and usually at abot 8ohm.

and I think in term of sensitivity, he designs are just like most of commercial designs.

 

[seve]

I have heard a few of Troels' creations and overall I really like the general signature/sound they present.

I have heard the following models:

Proac 2.5 and 2.95.
SP95 (only heard shortly)
Point75A -> Point75I (My present speaker build by TG)
Acapella SE
PMS
And perhaps a few more for a short periode.

I really like all of the above speakers and you can do a lot worse, though if I was to build a speaker today I would probably pick the PMS.......Though I am not sure I could ever sell the Point75I

Martin

 

[andy2]

I have heard a few of Troels' creations and overall I really like the general signature/sound they present.

I have heard the following models:

Proac 2.5 and 2.95.
SP95 (only heard shortly)
Point75A -> Point75I (My present speaker build by TG)
Acapella SE
PMS
And perhaps a few more for a short periode.

I really like all of the above speakers and you can do a lot worse, though if I was to build a speaker today I would probably pick the PMS.......Though I am not sure I could ever sell the Point75I

Martin

How do you like the PMS sound? If I had the mean, this is the one I would try. It's amazing that the driver/xover cost of this project is about only 500 usd but the sound belongs to the high end.

 

[seve]

How do you like the PMS sound? If I had the mean, this is the one I would try. It's amazing that the driver/xover cost of this project is about only 500 usd but the sound belongs to the high end.

What I really like about the PMS is how well the drivers are integrated and how it interacts with the room. I also really like the speed and transient. Bass is good, but some might want deeper and bigger bass - not me. The highs are good, but I have heard better drivers. You might ask Troels if the other tweeters he has tried is better.

Also I think Troels will be more than happy answering you questions you might have about the PMS

Martin

 

[kwng11]

actually, I wonder if anyone has the experiment with troels' SS15W/8530K00 + scan tweeter.

I am now asking around this forum, to find the best options of network (especially for the woofer) for my current seas TAFC/G H883 + 8530K00.

I wonder if the series network is better in the design

 

[mlammert]

Thanks for everyone's responses so far...

It sounds like a lot of people really like the PMS...

A comment I saw here and a couple other places on the net say the bass is good but not terribly low...

Now, I am not a bass head by any means, but I do like low and tight bass...

Should I assume I will need to build an accompaning subwoofer for many of these speakers???

What are others' experiences with these types of 3-ways and low end bass???

Again, I am not talking earth shattering - vibrate pictures off the walls, but I don't want to think that I am missing something from the music...

Also, any other recommendations on non-diy amps and pre-amps???

Thanks again, this has been a wonderful learning experience so far...

Mark

 

[mlammert]

Quick Question:

A couple people have mentioned the Stradivari clone... Is this the same as the PMS (Poor Man's Strad) or are these two different designs???

If they are different, where is the Stradivari clone design??? I cannot seem to find it on his site... I could be obviously blind though...

Thanks,
Mark

 

[andy2]

Quick Question:

A couple people have mentioned the Stradivari clone... Is this the same as the PMS (Poor Man's Strad) or are these two different designs???

If they are different, where is the Stradivari clone design??? I cannot seem to find it on his site... I could be obviously blind though...

Thanks,
Mark

The Stradivari clone is the PMS but with SEAS drivers. But you could say the PMS is also the Stradivari clone.

 

[andy2]

Thanks for everyone's responses so far...

It sounds like a lot of people really like the PMS...

A comment I saw here and a couple other places on the net say the bass is good but not terribly low...

Now, I am not a bass head by any means, but I do like low and tight bass...

Should I assume I will need to build an accompaning subwoofer for many of these speakers???

What are others' experiences with these types of 3-ways and low end bass???

Again, I am not talking earth shattering - vibrate pictures off the walls, but I don't want to think that I am missing something from the music...

Also, any other recommendations on non-diy amps and pre-amps???

Thanks again, this has been a wonderful learning experience so far...

Mark

I personally have not heard the PMS so I can't comment on it, but the other two designs I did (TJL, AcapellaSe) all have very good and low bass. Besides, his voicing tends to be a bit on the laid back, warm side so the illusion of having low bass is even greater.

 

[mlammert]

Excellent... Thanks for the insight...

Mark

 

[mlammert]

Anybody have any experience with the Zahra???

With everyone's great feedback, I have been searching the net for more comments on Troels' designs...

I have found some stuff on a lot of his designs mentioned here, but I cannot find anything at all on the Zahra design...

Just curious...

Thanks again for all the great comments and feedback!!!

Mark

 

[andy2]

Excellent... Thanks for the insight...

Mark

By the way, if you could afford it, go for the SEAS magnesium drivers. They have better bass with much better bass definition than paper cone. They also do a very nice job of reproducing the human voice. Only drawback of the mag. drivers is that they may not have the speed compared to the paper cone.

Here is an good article on the SEAS drivers:
http://www.northcreekmusic.com/Pegasus/Pegasus.htm