Being happy with my crossover, I finally decided to build it properly and use some good components.
So I bought some Solens, soldered it up, and sat back to enjoy the show.
I nearly fell off my chair when this high frequency brightness emerged from the speakers. Way too bright, and harsh making most music unlistenable (sore ears!).
So I checked my wiring which was all fine, and rechecked the components which were no different to my original test crossover values.
My original crossover had a lovely balance of detail and smoothness that I now dont have.
So how long do these solens take to burn in, or do I need to increase the Lpad attenuation?
My speakers are Dynaudio (not known for harshness) The 17W75Xl and D260 built to the original Dyn designed known as Nuance.
Thanks for any help.
So I bought some Solens, soldered it up, and sat back to enjoy the show.
I nearly fell off my chair when this high frequency brightness emerged from the speakers. Way too bright, and harsh making most music unlistenable (sore ears!).
So I checked my wiring which was all fine, and rechecked the components which were no different to my original test crossover values.
My original crossover had a lovely balance of detail and smoothness that I now dont have.
So how long do these solens take to burn in, or do I need to increase the Lpad attenuation?
My speakers are Dynaudio (not known for harshness) The 17W75Xl and D260 built to the original Dyn designed known as Nuance.
Thanks for any help.
Also a different esl will change the mid/top end. Component tolerances can also come in to play.
What has happened to you also happens to me. I find myself wishing I could turn back the clock but with a little tweaking I think you'll be glad about the new components.
Tony Gee said of Solens that the midrange can seem a little forward. This might give you a tweaking starting point. Have you considered experimenting with bypassing the Solen?
What has happened to you also happens to me. I find myself wishing I could turn back the clock but with a little tweaking I think you'll be glad about the new components.
Tony Gee said of Solens that the midrange can seem a little forward. This might give you a tweaking starting point. Have you considered experimenting with bypassing the Solen?
I posted in another thread about this issue some time ago in regards to the experience I had modifying the cross-overs in a pair of AR-58's. I replaced the electrolytics in the cross-over with Solens and had several problems.
The culprit of course was the ESR present in the old electrolytics which was taken into account in the x-over design. This has a huge effect on the network Q which you can both measure and simulate. I ended up with a seriously overdamped woofer, and excessively bright highs.
The solution is to add a judicious amount of series resistance in order to control the Q and to also match the voltage loss due to the original cap's ESR.
You'll have to iterate a little to get the sound you are looking for. I suspect something like 0.47 to 1 ohm will put you in the right range to start. Use a good non inductive resistor like a mills 12W or similar.
I don't think Solens in cross-overs really "burn in" although I have heard this phenomena in small signal applications in pre-amps and amplifiers. YMMV..
I use Solens in my current Onken based system, but designed the cross-overs around the components I was going to use. (Designed the cross-overs using LTspice.)
The culprit of course was the ESR present in the old electrolytics which was taken into account in the x-over design. This has a huge effect on the network Q which you can both measure and simulate. I ended up with a seriously overdamped woofer, and excessively bright highs.
The solution is to add a judicious amount of series resistance in order to control the Q and to also match the voltage loss due to the original cap's ESR.
You'll have to iterate a little to get the sound you are looking for. I suspect something like 0.47 to 1 ohm will put you in the right range to start. Use a good non inductive resistor like a mills 12W or similar.
I don't think Solens in cross-overs really "burn in" although I have heard this phenomena in small signal applications in pre-amps and amplifiers. YMMV..
I use Solens in my current Onken based system, but designed the cross-overs around the components I was going to use. (Designed the cross-overs using LTspice.)
Years ago, I built systems with the little Scanspeak 8636 (?) damped Kevlar mid, and used Solens. Just fine.
More recently, a system with AudioTechnology mid (Skaaning) and 99000 SS Revelator tweeter showed the Solens to be unusably harsh. Break-in helped iirc, but the far more transparent drivers were merciless.
North Creek worked out well, as did some of the Marsh/RelCaps; there are several tests of caps that can be found. I don't think Solens did well in any of them. Shunt capacitors matter, although less so perhaps than series caps. The mid and tweet high pass caps seem to be the most critical. Foil/polyprope has been better for me than metallized polyprope.
Another possible issue is that with better capacitors, resistors and pots (if any) become more audible. Again, I used to be happy with the little concrete jobs; now I use Mills, although others prefer some Caddocks or Dale/Vishays which I have not investigated yet. A variable attenuator can be replaced with fixed resistors, usually with some improvement. And at some point, wiring and connectors begin to need attention.
If electrolytics were replaced, I would certainly not disagree with the observations above; and some electrolytics provide a (euphonic?) veiling that seems to go beyond the ESR factor alone.
More recently, a system with AudioTechnology mid (Skaaning) and 99000 SS Revelator tweeter showed the Solens to be unusably harsh. Break-in helped iirc, but the far more transparent drivers were merciless.
North Creek worked out well, as did some of the Marsh/RelCaps; there are several tests of caps that can be found. I don't think Solens did well in any of them. Shunt capacitors matter, although less so perhaps than series caps. The mid and tweet high pass caps seem to be the most critical. Foil/polyprope has been better for me than metallized polyprope.
Another possible issue is that with better capacitors, resistors and pots (if any) become more audible. Again, I used to be happy with the little concrete jobs; now I use Mills, although others prefer some Caddocks or Dale/Vishays which I have not investigated yet. A variable attenuator can be replaced with fixed resistors, usually with some improvement. And at some point, wiring and connectors begin to need attention.
If electrolytics were replaced, I would certainly not disagree with the observations above; and some electrolytics provide a (euphonic?) veiling that seems to go beyond the ESR factor alone.
If the caps were electrolytic then changing them into Solen alters the ESR/ESL and this might be the main cause of the problem.
If the caps were film caps (e.g. Mylar) then you may try the ICW SA Clarity caps. I have done many A/B tests comparing Solens and the Clarity caps and everytime the result was very obvious. The Solens sound harsh and the Clarity caps do not.
Since you are in OZ I highly recommend you trying the ICW caps from www.ledeaudio.com. Dave from Darwin sells them and the postage is usually a few dollars only. The prices are about the same as the Solens or may even be cheaper, since I only know the trade prices of Solens and don't know the retail prices of Solen at WES. because I thought prices of Solens and Clarity caps were about the same so I did the comparisons to select the best for me. In Tony's website he rated Solen about 6.5 out of 10. In his recent reports he rated ICW Clarity caps about 9.5 out of 10 from my memory.
Good Luck.
Bill
If the caps were film caps (e.g. Mylar) then you may try the ICW SA Clarity caps. I have done many A/B tests comparing Solens and the Clarity caps and everytime the result was very obvious. The Solens sound harsh and the Clarity caps do not.
Since you are in OZ I highly recommend you trying the ICW caps from www.ledeaudio.com. Dave from Darwin sells them and the postage is usually a few dollars only. The prices are about the same as the Solens or may even be cheaper, since I only know the trade prices of Solens and don't know the retail prices of Solen at WES. because I thought prices of Solens and Clarity caps were about the same so I did the comparisons to select the best for me. In Tony's website he rated Solen about 6.5 out of 10. In his recent reports he rated ICW Clarity caps about 9.5 out of 10 from my memory.
Good Luck.
Bill
i used esa claritycraps on my infinity kappa 8 (only highs), and i dont like them, despite clearer sound and better definition, THEY ARE OUT OF PHASE, and soundstage suffers a lot! every thing is pushed beyond lateral walls (too much) they are edgy and they give some spikes sometimes, they are fashioned with the stupid british sound!
after that i recapped highs to midbass with Solens, everything came back to its position in the soundstage, I CANT HEAR ANY HARSH SOUND and they are quiet and sweet for long unfatiguing listennings sesssions.AND THEY SOUND SO NATURAL!
i will suggest to recap with the same brand that was in your crossover....and dont subestimate the engineer who built your crossover...
after that i recapped highs to midbass with Solens, everything came back to its position in the soundstage, I CANT HEAR ANY HARSH SOUND and they are quiet and sweet for long unfatiguing listennings sesssions.AND THEY SOUND SO NATURAL!
i will suggest to recap with the same brand that was in your crossover....and dont subestimate the engineer who built your crossover...
Reminds me some early experience with Solen caps. Years ago when acquired a pair Epos ES11, upon checking the crossover (the single capacitor....) I thought it's gonna be an easy ride to improve the (otherwise already excellent) sound of it. So, out came the original cap, in goes the Solen...
On first hearing I almost jumped out of my chair: sizzle,hiss, overemphasized sibilants, just unlistenable, etched tiring treble. The situation didn't improve much after days, somewhat better, but still too much glare on the music. Then came the Hovlands, Jantzens, etc. End of story: finally put back the original cheap Bennic caps... what a relief!
Conclusion: too good can be no good in many cases, I found crossover treble sections being particularly sensitive to this matter.
There is a reason if a designer choses a lossy cap with highish ESR, over a super-duper one.
If you insist on Solens, try parallel them with a small PIO cap (22-100nF), that can tame their sound, also insert a few tenth of ohm resistor in series with them.
On first hearing I almost jumped out of my chair: sizzle,hiss, overemphasized sibilants, just unlistenable, etched tiring treble. The situation didn't improve much after days, somewhat better, but still too much glare on the music. Then came the Hovlands, Jantzens, etc. End of story: finally put back the original cheap Bennic caps... what a relief!
Conclusion: too good can be no good in many cases, I found crossover treble sections being particularly sensitive to this matter.
There is a reason if a designer choses a lossy cap with highish ESR, over a super-duper one.
If you insist on Solens, try parallel them with a small PIO cap (22-100nF), that can tame their sound, also insert a few tenth of ohm resistor in series with them.
Any decent quality cap (meaning from average commercial generic "plastics" up) will not appreciably change its parameters for *decades* , so any short term "burn in effect" (< 1 month) can be exclusively chalked up to those notoriously unreliable, unstable, modified by exposure and age Acoustic Components: Human ears.
Coupled to that wet computer known as "brain" and the software it runs on: "Psychology" .
Not kidding: simple Biology 101 .
Coupled to that wet computer known as "brain" and the software it runs on: "Psychology" .
Not kidding: simple Biology 101 .
Wrong caps.
Solen makes a range of them but none are what I'd really use except as bypass caps or say in a Zobel network where cheap is paramount, then I get the Axon brand for it's bargain pricing, still made by Solen. Best caps to start to appreciate good film caps from is the Mundorf MKP line. Inexpensive, leagues better than the Solen's IMHO.
In my own speakers I use Clarity MR for the treble, and ESA for the woofer. Very neutral caps after about a week but not necessarily in your budget. I don't like magic in my treble, but if you do go with the Mundorf Supreme's or Supreme Silver in Oil. I also happily recommend Mills wirewound resistors in series with the tweeter as well. Extremely neutral, physically small and very stable with temperature changes.
I've never had a problem replacing electrolytics with film by the way. Technically, yes the ESR changes a little, but the quality of the sound is so much better I'll take some irregularities. Not to mention, good film caps like Mundorfs are manufactured to very tight tolerances, like 0.5% or better despite markings.
Claritys, while I love them, are usually about 1% under value. Still a damn site more accurate than most electrolytics.
Best,
Erik
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Wrong caps.
Best caps to start to appreciate good film caps from is the Mundorf MKP line. Inexpensive, leagues better than the Solen's IMHO.
In my own speakers I use Clarity MR for the treble, and ESA for the woofer. Very neutral caps after about a week but not necessarily in your budget. I don't like magic in my treble, but if you do go with the Mundorf Supreme's or Supreme Silver in Oil. I also happily recommend Mills wirewound resistors in series with the tweeter as well. Extremely neutral, physically small and very stable with temperature changes.
I've never had a problem replacing electrolytics with film by the way. Technically, yes the ESR changes a little, but the quality of the sound is so much better I'll take some irregularities. Not to mention, good film caps like Mundorfs are manufactured to very tight tolerances, like 0.5% or better despite markings.
Claritys, while I love them, are usually about 1% under value. Still a damn site more accurate than most electrolytics.
Best,
Erik
I recapped my 34 year old Dahlquist DQ 10's (16 caps) I used Axion polypropylene on the larger ones and Solens on the rest. Both speakers change for the better over the next week playing 10 to 12 hours a day. Strings, Piano and Human voice come through maybe slightly forward. The edge that I had lived with for all those years was gone. My speakers had the old paper bipolar caps not the newer yellow Mylar's. My speakers now truly bring tears to my eyes on a good recording
I'm inclined to believe this is the case. Capacitors have no moving parts and I don't believe they could possibly have a "burn in" time that would produce an audible difference. Slow changes over a period of years I could believe.
It is the ears that are burning in.
I don't suppose you have heard the difference between an electrostatic speaker that hasn't been turned on in six months and one that has been on all the time. The moving parts are electrons. Have you even heard an electrostat? Capacitors have to be formed to reach there full potential, it is a matter of surface conditioning. Have you even listened to the magic of an electrostat for any lenth of time.
True ..... in an Electrolytic capacitor, where the *actual* capacitor is not between sheets of aluminum but between both sides of an aluminum salt/oxide layer formed on a metallic aluminum sheet.
Since it uses a very active/aggressive chemistry to be able to attack the plain aluminum surface at all, such chemistry is by definition *unstable* .
Since it comes out of an * electro-chemical* reaction and it's surrounded by an electrolyte, yes, in absence of applied electric voltage for a long time, residual, slow, but unavoidable chemical reactions may damage it, it may partly self dissolve (changing parameters big time), etc.
NONE of that applies to so called "plastic" capacitors, shorthand to avoid writing : polypropilene - polycarbonate - polyester - Teflon - and tons of other plastic materials,which are among the most stable products created by Humankind, which will not decay in *hundreds* of years and anyway do not require *any* applied voltage to be "formed".
As a side note, we are talking electronic parts here, there's another Forum section for Loudspeakers, even for Electrostatics, my gripe is not with that, but with the wonderfully inaccurate (on many counts) phrase:
1) being a speaker, by definition it has to move air.
In this case you have large surface membranes moving back and forth, they are the ones moving air.
2) please reread the definition of what a capacitor is and how it works.
One of the defining points of what a capacitor is and how it behaves is that although it can pass one kind of current, AC to be more precise, **the electrons** do not pass through it because they do not jump the dielectric (a.k.a. insulator) .
3) please do, you'll enjoy far more this exciting hobby.
Electrons certainly don't qualify as "moving parts" by any practical definition.
I don't doubt that sitting for a while would change the sound of an electrostatic speaker. They use thin, fragile diaphragms that are moving, mechanical parts have mechanical properties that might be altered by sitting dormant or accumulating dust.
A plastic capacitor has no relevant mechanical properties. It undergoes no appreciable change by being used. The copper doesn't need to be stretched out by electron flow, and capacitors experience as much burn-in as your speaker cables.
That said, I'm perfectly willing to look like a fool if somebody can show evidence that this is a verifiable phenomenon. Anecdotes in the language of audophile (e.g. "the sound really opened up") leave me skeptical. People are very good at convincing themselves of something. If you believe your capacitors need to be broken in, by god you're certainly going to hear the change.
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