Good things/Bad things and the enviros
As I said, you have to kill a hayburning horse to get the stuff, but hide glue is the best stuff in the world for veneering. What else are they gonna do with the horse once it's dead anyway?
<b> Why does the good stuff alway have to harm the environment? R12 refrigerant is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and the new stuff doesn't make cars nearly as cold... but it kills the ozone...</b>
Try getting a good alkyd paint these days -- the acrylics, even the expensive ones, fall off our cedar shingles in a year.
We have the most friendly eco-friendly water company here in NJ -- this is why I have to put two water filters on the line.
As I said, you have to kill a hayburning horse to get the stuff, but hide glue is the best stuff in the world for veneering. What else are they gonna do with the horse once it's dead anyway?
<b> Why does the good stuff alway have to harm the environment? R12 refrigerant is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and the new stuff doesn't make cars nearly as cold... but it kills the ozone...</b>
Try getting a good alkyd paint these days -- the acrylics, even the expensive ones, fall off our cedar shingles in a year.
We have the most friendly eco-friendly water company here in NJ -- this is why I have to put two water filters on the line.
RE: "having been a veggie for 15 years I have a bit of a problem with hide glue!".
I can understand someone's viewpoint about our societies dependence on institutionalized processing of animals. However...
Hide glue is proably the oldest glue man ever created, it's non- toxic (you lick it on envelopes and postage stamps) and makes use of material (beef cattle hide collegen-not ground up horses) that would otherwise end up in a...landfill. It's one of the earliest examples of pre-industrial mankind finding value in recycling and was invented ages before there was any such thing as industrial chemical engineering which we can now blame for contaminated water supplies the world over.
In my opinion using any other kind of glue based on poly vinyl, ether, toulane, acetone etc. and yet having ethical issues about hide glue is somewhat hypocritical.
And besides, it's the best glue for verneering. And it's reversable.
I can understand someone's viewpoint about our societies dependence on institutionalized processing of animals. However...
Hide glue is proably the oldest glue man ever created, it's non- toxic (you lick it on envelopes and postage stamps) and makes use of material (beef cattle hide collegen-not ground up horses) that would otherwise end up in a...landfill. It's one of the earliest examples of pre-industrial mankind finding value in recycling and was invented ages before there was any such thing as industrial chemical engineering which we can now blame for contaminated water supplies the world over.
In my opinion using any other kind of glue based on poly vinyl, ether, toulane, acetone etc. and yet having ethical issues about hide glue is somewhat hypocritical.
And besides, it's the best glue for verneering. And it's reversable.
glues
I am a little confused about the names for glues here:
* What is contact cement? As it can be rolled onto two surfaces and left to dry for several hours before the two pieces are joined, it is probably not what we know as contact glue here?
Contact glue (most prominent brand here is Pattex, the French call it Néoprene colle) comes in tubes or buckets, it definitely has a lot of solvents and is usually opaque and yellowish-brown, but there is a clear variety now. You apply it thinly to both surfaces, let it dry for 3-5 minutes and then press the two pieces together very hard. Presumably, not the duration of the pressing but the maximum pressure is important for the strength of the adhesion.
* What is hide glue? Apparently, it is the "gum" on stamps. We can buy a water based glue here that is known as generic paper glue. I can imagine the flakes are just the raw material. Amazing that this stuff should be strong enough for veneer.
* Carpenters here used to use "bone glue", i.e. some glue made from the bones and hide of animals. You buy the stuff in solid bars and you have to melt them in a pot on an electric heater. Somebody who reworks antique furniture once told me that this stuff is ideal for veneering because it is very strong and won't get resolved by any of the paints and clear coats one might want to apply to the finished veneer.
I am a little confused about the names for glues here:
* What is contact cement? As it can be rolled onto two surfaces and left to dry for several hours before the two pieces are joined, it is probably not what we know as contact glue here?
Contact glue (most prominent brand here is Pattex, the French call it Néoprene colle) comes in tubes or buckets, it definitely has a lot of solvents and is usually opaque and yellowish-brown, but there is a clear variety now. You apply it thinly to both surfaces, let it dry for 3-5 minutes and then press the two pieces together very hard. Presumably, not the duration of the pressing but the maximum pressure is important for the strength of the adhesion.
* What is hide glue? Apparently, it is the "gum" on stamps. We can buy a water based glue here that is known as generic paper glue. I can imagine the flakes are just the raw material. Amazing that this stuff should be strong enough for veneer.
* Carpenters here used to use "bone glue", i.e. some glue made from the bones and hide of animals. You buy the stuff in solid bars and you have to melt them in a pot on an electric heater. Somebody who reworks antique furniture once told me that this stuff is ideal for veneering because it is very strong and won't get resolved by any of the paints and clear coats one might want to apply to the finished veneer.
Contact cement is just that -- the two surfaces are joined together and voila. There are non-flammable and flammable contact cements. The non-flammable have chlorine in them -- thus they smell like drycleaning fluid. The flammable cements have solvents like methyl ethyl ketone, higher alcohols, aldehydes etc. in them. Use the latter group of cements out of doors.<p> Here's a trick for laying out large pieces of veneer -- purchase several wooden dowels. Place the dowels at intervals between the two cemented surfaces to be joined. Place the veneer over the substrate on top of the dowels and align two edges. Now, remove the dowels one at a time allowing the veneer to slowly come in contact with the substrate. The veneer will layup on the substrate without any headache.<p>and, oh by the way, there is a special veneer roller, looks like a wallpaper edging roller, but is completely flat and larger. Usually made of a hardwood or hard rubber. These will help you roll out any air pockets between the two surfaces.
Jack,
I still don't get it. The contact glue I know must be joined within 5 mm after being applied to both surfaces and then pressed hard.
In the link to veneering earlier in this post, it was said that contact cement should dry for several hours, and no particular emphasis was given on pressing as hard as possible.
Greetings,
Eric
I still don't get it. The contact glue I know must be joined within 5 mm after being applied to both surfaces and then pressed hard.
In the link to veneering earlier in this post, it was said that contact cement should dry for several hours, and no particular emphasis was given on pressing as hard as possible.
Greetings,
Eric
hide glue = wallpaper glue?
Maybe hide glue is what we know as wallpaper glue? It comes as white powder or very small flakes (< 1 mm). You dissolve about 20-40 g in 1 liter of water, the stronger solution being for heavy wallpaper or vinyl type wallpapers. There are versions with methylacrylate added for better resistance to humidity.
Is this hide glue? The difference I note is that wallpaper glue usually takes a few hours to dry.
Eric
Maybe hide glue is what we know as wallpaper glue? It comes as white powder or very small flakes (< 1 mm). You dissolve about 20-40 g in 1 liter of water, the stronger solution being for heavy wallpaper or vinyl type wallpapers. There are versions with methylacrylate added for better resistance to humidity.
Is this hide glue? The difference I note is that wallpaper glue usually takes a few hours to dry.
Eric
I know contact adhesive in the UK as "evo-stick" resin W - can put together after 15-20 mins.
If you're veneering onto mdf end grain (using wood glue / pva) would it be wise to seal the mdf first with 2 coats of wood glue rolled on and allowed to dry ?
This way it won't absorb the glue as quick on veneering. Possibly stop shrinkage?
Rob
btw - I reckon veneering is way better than sanding and spraying mdf (make that easier
)
If you're veneering onto mdf end grain (using wood glue / pva) would it be wise to seal the mdf first with 2 coats of wood glue rolled on and allowed to dry ?
This way it won't absorb the glue as quick on veneering. Possibly stop shrinkage?
Rob
btw - I reckon veneering is way better than sanding and spraying mdf (make that easier
)
Nope, that is ordinary woodworking glue, sorry.
You can only get the evostick rubber based contact adhesive in the UK, it is usually sold in 250ml or 500ml red tins, and is not really suitable for veneering, (but great for laminates).
You can use resin w for veneering, but you need to put a very thin coat on each surface, let it dry, and then use a hot iron to make the join.
Sorry Pinkmouse,
You're right! I've just looked at the wood glue sitting next to me and thats resin w! - The stuff I was meant to be talking about comes in a green tin, made by evo stick, black lid. Smells very strong. Definitely rubber based...
On my other question - if I was to use the iron method, would I still be best off sealing the mdf first?
A very fuzzy memoried Rob
You're right! I've just looked at the wood glue sitting next to me and thats resin w! - The stuff I was meant to be talking about comes in a green tin, made by evo stick, black lid. Smells very strong. Definitely rubber based...
On my other question - if I was to use the iron method, would I still be best off sealing the mdf first?
A very fuzzy memoried Rob
For people in the US, Tapeease is a good source of veneer and supplies. There are some informative tips on their web page as well. One of the best is to forget using a J roller. Rather, use a scrap of hardwood and scrape the veneer with the edge. That applies much more pressure than a roller because of the relatively sharp edge. For those who can't get the hang of the glue thing, they sell veneer with hot-melt glue pre-applied. You just iron it on and scrape it while it's still hot to make sure all the bubbles are out. If a spot doesn't stick, heat it up again. Doesn't get much easier than that.
No the layer of PVA should be fine, but make sure everything is all sanded perfectly smooth, or the layers of your mdf will telegraph through the veneer!
You will also have to run the grain of the veneer vertically, so it will bend around the curves, if you try and run it horizontally, it will split.
Hmm green tin, new one on me!
I'll try and take a pic of the can (I've seen the red ones in b&q's etc, but at work we use green cans - maybe its standard glue not impact?)
I'm not really an expert on glues , and I'm probably just digging myself deeper and deeper.....
Rob
-spent 31/2 hours with a belt sander getting my cabs smooth , just got to get the courage up to slap the veneer on! -
I'm not really an expert on glues
, and I'm probably just digging myself deeper and deeper.....Rob
-spent 31/2 hours with a belt sander getting my cabs smooth , just got to get the courage up to slap the veneer on! -
For those speakers I just used normal woodglue (PVAC) and an iron and had no problems at all.
I ironed with a sheet of paper in between the iron and veneer and around the edges. Never had any problems with splitting the wood. You just have to bend a little bit over the edge.
Always work from center to side and with bubble leen on the iron (for me 70kg) and voila gone is the bubble.
Remember that feneer will crimp so take a larger piece then the box
Ralph
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I ironed with a sheet of paper in between the iron and veneer and around the edges. Never had any problems with splitting the wood. You just have to bend a little bit over the edge.
Always work from center to side and with bubble leen on the iron (for me 70kg) and voila gone is the bubble.
Remember that feneer will crimp so take a larger piece then the box
Ralph
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