Hiya!
I have short listed three large woofers that will all be suitable for the design I have in mind but I have not actually heard any of them. So, I am stuck as to which one I should be using.
The design puts them in an open baffle doing mainly upper bass and midrange up to a XO @ 1.5KHz.
I would greatly appreciate your subjective opinions on which of these you like most.
1. Eminence Magnum 12HO
2. Precision Devices 12SB30
3. P-Audio SD-12
The P-Audio looks the biz and the Eminence seems to have the smoothest response, but that could just be the smoothing and the Precision Devices wins very so slightly on SPL.
What to choose!? I like detail, finesse and accuracy. Obviously all of them can give it some welly!
I have short listed three large woofers that will all be suitable for the design I have in mind but I have not actually heard any of them. So, I am stuck as to which one I should be using.
The design puts them in an open baffle doing mainly upper bass and midrange up to a XO @ 1.5KHz.
I would greatly appreciate your subjective opinions on which of these you like most.
1. Eminence Magnum 12HO
2. Precision Devices 12SB30
3. P-Audio SD-12
The P-Audio looks the biz and the Eminence seems to have the smoothest response, but that could just be the smoothing and the Precision Devices wins very so slightly on SPL.
What to choose!? I like detail, finesse and accuracy. Obviously all of them can give it some welly!
There is really only one choice here if you are not eq'ing to some extent.
see this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10376
see this thread:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=10376
I am EQ'ing. The spec for what will work in this design is very strict, I have looked through nearly every speaker manufacturers catalogue and compared them. These three are the only ones that cut it. What I have been mainly looking for is a smooth response up to about 3KHz and the highest max SPL in the low frequency, as I will be EQ'ing. B&C and JBL are not bad so I might be able to use these but the three I have listed are better in the areas I have mentioned.
All three should be quite good I believe as they should be 'supremely clean' as T put it, at normal listening levels, but which is 'de best' for midrange sound quality??
Having said that I just tried putting the Supervox into T's open baffle spreadsheet and it tops all of those drivers for max SPL across the board. Now it obviously has a very high sensitivity so that may be why... I'll see what Thorsten thinks. It is a very different woofer to the sort we have been looking at and as he is a fan of Supervox so I’m sure he would have suggested it. How would you describe their sound by the way? Good for all sorts of music like anything from classical to heavy metal and emo? Or better for ooh so warm vocals and acoustic stuff?
All three should be quite good I believe as they should be 'supremely clean' as T put it, at normal listening levels, but which is 'de best' for midrange sound quality??
Having said that I just tried putting the Supervox into T's open baffle spreadsheet and it tops all of those drivers for max SPL across the board. Now it obviously has a very high sensitivity so that may be why... I'll see what Thorsten thinks. It is a very different woofer to the sort we have been looking at and as he is a fan of Supervox so I’m sure he would have suggested it. How would you describe their sound by the way? Good for all sorts of music like anything from classical to heavy metal and emo? Or better for ooh so warm vocals and acoustic stuff?
Tenson said:
Never heard them.. (but wish I have). However, expect a dynamic quick and clean character (..i.e. "fast") due to the low mass for the given sd. Considering eff. (motor strength) it should be fairly force-full even though the mass is quite low. The other drivers will have more subjective "punch" in the midbass due to their greater mass - BUT they won't be as "quick and clean".
If you want more discriptors I'd ask Nielsio for them.. (perhaps on his thread to alert his attention?)
I personally use a pair of pro 10"s that are likely similar to what eminence offers (i.e. more punch at the expense of clarity and "speed"), but they are not being operated that high up (only to around 300 Hz with -6db after that). (..on the other hand they cost a considerably less - and no you can't get them now).
Oh, and despite what others might suggest with "cheap and cheerfull" dipoles - the more massive and rigid the baffle, the better the sound. (i.e. think concrete.) ..pardon the pun, but it makes a MASSIVE difference.
Tenson said:Ahh so much for doing this sort of thing late at night, I was looking at the wrong sheet on the spreadsheet!The Supravox does not have higher max SPL after all... not surprisingly.
I think some of the Tannoy monitors used similar expensive ‘PA’ drivers and are very highly regarded.
No. The supravox will have a higher max spl within its linear operation for the desired passband. (.. it has higher x-max and is more eff. at lower freq.s on an open baffle - needing less eq.)
For the application you have suggested (even considering eq.) - this is THE driver at a moderate price.
Okay so after realising I was looking at the wrong sheet on the spreadsheet 
I have gone over the last few woofers I looked at again.
Here is a graph for the MAX SPL of the three best vs. the Supravox.
As you say the Supravox will have higher SPL within its linear operation as it has a higher efficiency, but I have EQ and however much power I need so... that doesn't really matter.
Out of these three 'top picks' which do you people think has the best over-all sound for midrange?
Thanks!
I have gone over the last few woofers I looked at again.Here is a graph for the MAX SPL of the three best vs. the Supravox.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
As you say the Supravox will have higher SPL within its linear operation as it has a higher efficiency, but I have EQ and however much power I need so... that doesn't really matter.
Out of these three 'top picks' which do you people think has the best over-all sound for midrange?
Thanks!
Okay, I think the Supravox could cut it. With the extra 6dB my fill in woofer will give that should be about 104dB @ 40Hz @ 1m. Thats about 93dB @ 4m distance isn't it, I think!? Sounds like it should do for all but the most SPL crazed weirdo’s!
So... is there anywhere I can hear these divers near me? I am in Kent. Anyone kind enough to let me have an earwig?
So... is there anywhere I can hear these divers near me? I am in Kent. Anyone kind enough to let me have an earwig?
Well, since we're talking Open Baffles, let's get into Linkwitz-mind. Really, frequency response deviations that are slight won't matter as much if we have low distortion and good phase.
Have you looked on the web for distortion measurements of these drivers? I remember the Eminences running well, but I don't think the models in question were the ones being tested.
Have you looked on the web for distortion measurements of these drivers? I remember the Eminences running well, but I don't think the models in question were the ones being tested.
Hi Tenson,
would you care to take the time to explain what that display in post7 is telling us?
Why are there two roll off slopes at the bass end?
What is that blip at 150Hz?
Why is there a notch at 550Hz?
Why is the JBL different below 60Hz?
Why is there a roll off above 900Hz?
Why are all the speakers so similar?
Obviously there is a lot I do not understand.
would you care to take the time to explain what that display in post7 is telling us?
Why are there two roll off slopes at the bass end?
What is that blip at 150Hz?
Why is there a notch at 550Hz?
Why is the JBL different below 60Hz?
Why is there a roll off above 900Hz?
Why are all the speakers so similar?
Obviously there is a lot I do not understand.
The Graph shows MAX SPL of each woofer mounted in a 32cm x 100cm open baffle, in room. The blips and suckouts are the room effects such as floor bounce.
The main reason for the graph was to see which woofer could be used to the lowest frequency while still keeping a high SPL capability.
No I have not looked at the distortion measurements for the drivers. Where would be the best place to get them? Asking the manufacture or something?
The main reason for the graph was to see which woofer could be used to the lowest frequency while still keeping a high SPL capability.
No I have not looked at the distortion measurements for the drivers. Where would be the best place to get them? Asking the manufacture or something?
Tenson said:Okay so after realising I was looking at the wrong sheet on the spreadsheet
Here is a graph for the MAX SPL of the three best vs. the Supravox.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
As you say the Supravox will have higher SPL within its linear operation as it has a higher efficiency, but I have EQ and however much power I need so... that doesn't really matter.
(Note: I disagree with the graph below 200 Hz. With that in mind..)
AH, but it DOES matter! (unless you are limiting your passband to what you have shown).
At lower spl's the supravox will have more usable extension, (i.e. higher spl's in the midbass), closer to the overall level of the driver.
You can eq. all you want on the midbass of the pro drivers - but at some point (well below the spl's you have plotted) the driver won't "excurse" anymore (or will damage the driver). The reality is then that IF you are considering the midbass spl (50-200 Hz), then the supravox will actually go louder, lower.
Really the only difference with your graph here (above 200 Hz) is how the VC's of the drivers react to heat from current dissipation (because they act like resistors). The other pro drivers have larger VC's and can handle more heat, allowing them to achieve higher max spl's at higher freq.s.
Tenson said:
You want to eq. the low end.. correct?
What I'm saying is the graph is wrong.. there is no way the JBL or emenince will get to 110db at 50 Hz. And that is talking about NON-linear operation. Its FAR worse for linear operation.
MAX SPL should not be used to determine how much you can eq. a driver's low end response. What you want to know is how much spl the driver is capable of for a given freq. with LINEAR operation at lower freq.s. In this respect the supravox will be superior to the other drivers (..at least to around 50 Hz).
Tenson said:
yes and no.
I'm saying the supravox has a "larger" linear operation at lower freq.s to its fs.
IF the supravox has 8mm one-way then it ALSO has "larger" non-linear operation to its fs (..despite what you modeled). IF it is only 4mm one-way then yes, the eminence has "larger" non-linear operation at lower freq.s.
Konnichiwa,
The Supravox has 4mm voicecoil overhang, 5mm if the Magnet system is an "OB" version fieldcoil and thus 4mm maximum excursion. The suspension becomes notably nonlinear before Xmax is reached. It has a 1" diameter voicecoil with a paper former, so it's thermal capacity is pathetic. And it bottoms out easily.
By comparison the Magnum 12 HO has 4.8mm voice coil overhang and a suspension that remains pretty linear up to that, more critically, the M12HO has a 4" diameter voicecoil and a copper shortcircuit ring with at least 4 times the thermal capacity and thus much less compression for a given SPL and most likely better linearity too at high SPL's/Powerlevels
Don't get me wrong, Supravox makes great drivers for certain specific applications, but one thing they are not are LOUD Loudspeakers, be they the 215 or the 285. They are very excellent for civilised styles music, but are not the last word for heavy rock, rap or metal played loud, when placed on open baffles. If a large open baffle where used, no LF EQ where required
In Tenson's application I suspect the Eminence will give a better option.
Oh, BTW, IN ROOM the EM Mag 12HO will reach 109db/1m @ 50Hz on a 12" X 3.5" baffle IF we account for the floor image and room reverbrant field. The Supravox will struggle to reach it's theoretical 103db under identical conditions. If we add the extra 6db from the sealed woofer section we get a maximum limit of 115db/50Hz/1m, which is pretty respectable.
Even better, our Eminence driver could be used with a simple passive 9db first order stepdown RL shelving network making for a speaker whose Dipole section can be operated passively with around 86-87db/2.83V/1m SPL with a pretty easy load and and quite prodigous power handling.
Sayonara
ScottG said:
The Supravox has 4mm voicecoil overhang, 5mm if the Magnet system is an "OB" version fieldcoil and thus 4mm maximum excursion. The suspension becomes notably nonlinear before Xmax is reached. It has a 1" diameter voicecoil with a paper former, so it's thermal capacity is pathetic. And it bottoms out easily.
By comparison the Magnum 12 HO has 4.8mm voice coil overhang and a suspension that remains pretty linear up to that, more critically, the M12HO has a 4" diameter voicecoil and a copper shortcircuit ring with at least 4 times the thermal capacity and thus much less compression for a given SPL and most likely better linearity too at high SPL's/Powerlevels
Don't get me wrong, Supravox makes great drivers for certain specific applications, but one thing they are not are LOUD Loudspeakers, be they the 215 or the 285. They are very excellent for civilised styles music, but are not the last word for heavy rock, rap or metal played loud, when placed on open baffles. If a large open baffle where used, no LF EQ where required
In Tenson's application I suspect the Eminence will give a better option.
Oh, BTW, IN ROOM the EM Mag 12HO will reach 109db/1m @ 50Hz on a 12" X 3.5" baffle IF we account for the floor image and room reverbrant field. The Supravox will struggle to reach it's theoretical 103db under identical conditions. If we add the extra 6db from the sealed woofer section we get a maximum limit of 115db/50Hz/1m, which is pretty respectable.
Even better, our Eminence driver could be used with a simple passive 9db first order stepdown RL shelving network making for a speaker whose Dipole section can be operated passively with around 86-87db/2.83V/1m SPL with a pretty easy load and and quite prodigous power handling.
Sayonara
Kuei Yang Wang said:
OK 4mm (not 4.8).
Is LOUD the major criteria?
(..and I'm assuming the differences in low freq. response were accounted for (i.e. real "curves".. not just a TS value extrapolation).)
Like you, I really don't have anything against any of the drivers.. its just my "hunch" that under average listening levels the supravox will sound considerably better. (..could be wrong though.)
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