I wasn't going to harp on about it, but since you bring it up..
we were sorely offended by your (implied) admonition against any of us that might not see any part of the self-serving epicurian excess in our taste for 45,000 dollar loudspeakers. Are you trying to suggest that approximately 10,000 Pakistani men, women, and child victims of earthquakes, who this very evening, are likely to be suffering the extreme depredations of sub-zero temperatures and insufficient food, without even sufficient basic clothing, might be provide with even rudimentary canvas shelter, in many cases marking the difference between life and death, with that cash that we'd like to earmark for our listening pleasure?
What are you? Some kind of communist? You call yourself an American?
we were sorely offended by your (implied) admonition against any of us that might not see any part of the self-serving epicurian excess in our taste for 45,000 dollar loudspeakers. Are you trying to suggest that approximately 10,000 Pakistani men, women, and child victims of earthquakes, who this very evening, are likely to be suffering the extreme depredations of sub-zero temperatures and insufficient food, without even sufficient basic clothing, might be provide with even rudimentary canvas shelter, in many cases marking the difference between life and death, with that cash that we'd like to earmark for our listening pleasure?
What are you? Some kind of communist? You call yourself an American?
I am firmly convinced that a diy'er can build a better speaker, dollar for dollar, than any factory offering. With the knowledge base out there and the quality parts available the only thing holding anyone back is their desire.
I am a beginner and have a lot to learn. Each speaker I build sounds better and better. I now look at my first set I built (8 mos. ago) and see a lot of things I would do differently already.
I recently traded my mom for a set of Polk R30's I had laying around for a set of Infinity SM 82's. I had always liked those speakers ever since I convinced my dad to buy them some 15 years ago. These speakers were $180/ea. at the time of purchase.
After taking them apart I was amazed at the poor quality of the components. Then I listened to them for a while and compared them to my current speakers. They sounded lifeless and boomy.
I also have a pair if Polk LSi9's ($1k/pr.) with about 50 hours on them, stored away in their carton for the last 4 months because I prefer my speakers over them also. These have incredible bass for their size but mine have better depth/imaging. The tweeter is a Vifa I believe and I am not very impressed with it either. The Polks are beautifully made however I haven't and won't dismantle them to peek inside.
And lastly, as was mentioned before, you cannot compare the sheer enjoyment of building your own set and plugging them in for the first time to shelling out a $1000 and bringing home a factory set. But having done both I can understand ... each to his own.
I am a beginner and have a lot to learn. Each speaker I build sounds better and better. I now look at my first set I built (8 mos. ago) and see a lot of things I would do differently already.
I recently traded my mom for a set of Polk R30's I had laying around for a set of Infinity SM 82's. I had always liked those speakers ever since I convinced my dad to buy them some 15 years ago. These speakers were $180/ea. at the time of purchase.
After taking them apart I was amazed at the poor quality of the components. Then I listened to them for a while and compared them to my current speakers. They sounded lifeless and boomy.
I also have a pair if Polk LSi9's ($1k/pr.) with about 50 hours on them, stored away in their carton for the last 4 months because I prefer my speakers over them also. These have incredible bass for their size but mine have better depth/imaging. The tweeter is a Vifa I believe and I am not very impressed with it either. The Polks are beautifully made however I haven't and won't dismantle them to peek inside.
And lastly, as was mentioned before, you cannot compare the sheer enjoyment of building your own set and plugging them in for the first time to shelling out a $1000 and bringing home a factory set. But having done both I can understand ... each to his own.
Alright, I don't post much here, but I've got to throw in my 2 cents. I only got into the DIY scene a year ago or so (although I've been doing car audio work for years using WinISD for subs), and built my first pair of speakers (Adire designed Bang! speakers) and an amp (Brian's Gainclone) for ~$300. I have dropped more than my fair share of jaws when I play my system for people for the first time. I would never have been able to purchase the sort of audio quality I have sitting in my living room if I'd had to purchase it from a store. I'm looking forward to graduating from college and getting a job so I can build another system with higher quality drivers (just one more pair, really....).
velmeran42 said:
No!
Once you stepped into the circle of DIY speaker building, you'll never go back.
And you'll certainly be doing it on & on & on & on & on & on & on .....
Because there'll always be some better drivers & new ideas, and you'll certainly do them better & better. So you just can't help.
Have fun!
keyser said:
By far. B&W N800 sucks
You can buy the best quality supravox fullranger, and mount it on a nice handcrafted baffle. It will most likely outpreform any factorymade speaker in the 10x pricereange. Add a nicely integrated sub, and you have a system that is hard to beat regardless of price. Not to mention hornsystems. It's DIY nirvana.
My Bastanis OB system cost me 2500$ with integrated OB subs. I have openminded listen to systems in the 20000$ range. I can not say that they do the job any better(rater worse). Expensive speakers are often too complicated, and sound thereafter. They also tend to bee boxspeakers
IMHO
Bjørn
I had a fun time recently.. A mate who works at the main hifi store in Newcastle, (is actually the repairman) and has VERY expensive gear himself came round with 2 of his mates who also have VERY expensive top end gear.
After about an hour or so listening the Gumby, the only comments were.. "soo natural, so precise, magnificent, wonderful, mazung balance..... etc " (at this stage AndyG was smiling with pride ;-)
When Harry was asked by one of his mates how much something that sounded that good would probably cost in a store, he replied, "upward of $10000" (that's Aussie dollars).
My cost, around less than $1000, including active x-o and bass amp. (Not including tube amps for top end, cos they were sortof a gift/exchange.. long story)
After about an hour or so listening the Gumby, the only comments were.. "soo natural, so precise, magnificent, wonderful, mazung balance..... etc " (at this stage AndyG was smiling with pride ;-)
When Harry was asked by one of his mates how much something that sounded that good would probably cost in a store, he replied, "upward of $10000" (that's Aussie dollars).
My cost, around less than $1000, including active x-o and bass amp. (Not including tube amps for top end, cos they were sortof a gift/exchange.. long story)
I attended an exhibition recently where they had both the B&W 800D and a Bastanis kit (amongst many many others). They were not in the same room however but it listened to both with the same song (that I am familiar with).
I'd say the difference in quality is definitely much smaller than the price difference (in other words the Bastanis has a far better price/performance ratio IMO). The Bastanis had a little more rugged frequency response (some notes of the singer stood out) but by far not to the extent to make them unpleasant.
I think that the B&W doesn't beat my own sytem (Manger and Audiotechnolgy) in general. The only point where it excelled was the SPL capability which is quite understandable knowing that my system is a closed-box with a 8" woofer.
O.K. there is another point as well admittedly where the B&W excels over Bastanis and mine: Looks and build quality of the cabinet. But speakers are made for our ears primarily and eyes come second IMHO.
Regards
Charles
I'd say the difference in quality is definitely much smaller than the price difference (in other words the Bastanis has a far better price/performance ratio IMO). The Bastanis had a little more rugged frequency response (some notes of the singer stood out) but by far not to the extent to make them unpleasant.
I think that the B&W doesn't beat my own sytem (Manger and Audiotechnolgy) in general. The only point where it excelled was the SPL capability which is quite understandable knowing that my system is a closed-box with a 8" woofer.
O.K. there is another point as well admittedly where the B&W excels over Bastanis and mine: Looks and build quality of the cabinet. But speakers are made for our ears primarily and eyes come second IMHO.
Regards
Charles
DIY Thor vs KEF and B&W
I've been toying with building the Thor (Tall version from Planet10). My cost with oak cabinets and upgraded cross over would be about $1800. I can buy the KEF XQ5 on close out for $1750 delivered ($3000 retail) and the B&W CDM 9NT for $1700 ($2600 retail). Will I end up happier? I've only built subwoofers to date.................. so it's a big jump. Opinions??
I've been toying with building the Thor (Tall version from Planet10). My cost with oak cabinets and upgraded cross over would be about $1800. I can buy the KEF XQ5 on close out for $1750 delivered ($3000 retail) and the B&W CDM 9NT for $1700 ($2600 retail). Will I end up happier? I've only built subwoofers to date.................. so it's a big jump. Opinions??
pic
15" soundsplinter............. easy to build. Used an Oaudio plate amp...................... not much too it. Big sound for a reasonable cost. Will I get the same benefit from the SEAS Thor vs the KEF XQ5 .................. I already have the XQ2C center channel as seen in the earlier pic........................
15" soundsplinter............. easy to build. Used an Oaudio plate amp...................... not much too it. Big sound for a reasonable cost. Will I get the same benefit from the SEAS Thor vs the KEF XQ5 .................. I already have the XQ2C center channel as seen in the earlier pic........................
Attachments
kramster,
I say build the Thor. As long as that sub is a servo sub, than build the Thor. I have not heard an implementation of Planet10's Thor, but I have heard the original Thor and was very pleased, unfortunately I think that they do need quite a bit of low end help. The Seas Millennium tweeter is very nice, much nicer than B&Ws tweeters, infact I prefer the Millennium to the B&W diamond tweeter.
Josh
I say build the Thor. As long as that sub is a servo sub, than build the Thor. I have not heard an implementation of Planet10's Thor, but I have heard the original Thor and was very pleased, unfortunately I think that they do need quite a bit of low end help. The Seas Millennium tweeter is very nice, much nicer than B&Ws tweeters, infact I prefer the Millennium to the B&W diamond tweeter.
Josh
keyser said:
My own experience for what its worth.
1. purchased Boston Acoustics A-70's (dating myself) in high school
2. purchased Thiel CS 1.2 after graduating college. Wanted to get Apogee Centaur Major's, but couldnt afford them.
3. Bought commercial NHT ST4's for home theatre(last 6 years or so)
4. THEN.... started DIY speaker building
Used some scanspeak 21w8554's, Boehlender Graebner RD40 quasi-ribbons, BG Neo3 PDR ribbons and/or Seas Millienium tweeters. Went through Behringer DCX2496 crossover, then PC based crossover. Thinking of going back to passive crossover in speaker.
I've listened to Maggies, NHT, B&W, Thiel, Wilson, Dunlavy, etc.
and about everything else that's mainstream.
I invited some friends over to listen to my speaker system. In order they preferred
1) B&W 800 series (used $3000)
2) my friends Klipsch ($1800 new many years ago)
3) my speakers ($3000 total in experimentation) and NHT S4's($1000). ST4's more coherent. mine have more detail and some of that ribbon magic.
4) Maggie 3.6's. They thought they were special sounding but too hard to get into sweet spot. ($4500)
4) Maggie 1.2 and 1.6s ($1200 - $2000)
I consider that a failure as I have more money invested than if I had outright bought the B&W's. And I'm throwing the best quality DAC's and triamps I know of in my own home demo. Easily outclassing the receivers at the stereo shops.
Choosing high quality drivers will maybe get you a B-grade effort without a proven design. But, once you go down this road forever will it dominate your destiny. ;}
I, too, had a friend who said speaker building was just for the pro's. While I've made him eat some of his words... he and his girlfriend still prefers the B&W's and by alot. And honestly.... so do I.
My advice is this.... choose a proven DIY design... possibly from someone at a shootout event. Maybe a kit offered by Madisound. Or even a Linkwitz Orion. But you likely wont save any money.
My system is detailed, and at times very, very good. But it just lacks the coherence of a commerical system. I think that "coherence" is from the crossover design. Just slapping a 24db/oct Butterworth or LR24 on it isnt enough. Pink noise measurements to determine frequency response arent enough.
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