bass unit to form a 3-way system with Scan-Speak Reference Monitor

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Hi!
I am now building a pair of SS Ref. Mon's.

http://audiocomponents.nl/speakers/scanspeak/reference/scanspeak-reference_eng.htm
>far left speaker<

Since i am used to listening to big 3-way speakers, i intend to build a set of stereo subs to form effectively form a 3-way system. The monitors will be placed on top of the subs. I already have an active 24 db crossover and a 140 watt @ 8 ohm amp.
I am not very sure yet, but I think the subs will have to take over from about 150 hz.

the speakers will be used for music only. I like very tight, an controlled bass. absolute sound volume and bass depth come second, because i will only use the system for music. I think i like a sound of a sub that has very low Qtc. I can accommodate pretty large boxes, but they shouldn't exceed about 120 liter inner volume. I like the sound of big units, 25cm (10") to 30 cm (12").

I've been looking at units from both peerless XXLS and Scan-speak, since they seem high qualtity and are easily available here in the Netherlands. I recently downloaded WinISD, but i'm not very experieced with it yet. I am not sure how to interprete all the info the program offers. Could anyone suggest a good woofer and box?

tnx
 
keyser said:
Hi!
I am now building a pair of SS Ref. Mon's.

http://audiocomponents.nl/speakers/scanspeak/reference/scanspeak-reference_eng.htm
>far left speaker<

Since i am used to listening to big 3-way speakers, i intend to build a set of stereo subs to form effectively form a 3-way system. The monitors will be placed on top of the subs. I already have an active 24 db crossover and a 140 watt @ 8 ohm amp.
I am not very sure yet, but I think the subs will have to take over from about 150 hz.

the speakers will be used for music only. I like very tight, an controlled bass. absolute sound volume and bass depth come second, because i will only use the system for music.


I doubt if you will need a subwoofer with the 8546, unless your room is quite big. The 8546 has great performance, so if you decide to build it, leave the subwoofer construction after you listen to the 8546 kit.

keyser said:
Could anyone suggest a good woofer and box?

tnx

The 8531 is also a great driver with great performance. Troels Gravesen has a design with 8531 and 9700 at his website if i remember well.
 
i´ve had a pair of 2-way speakers before, and i think they are not capable of setting up a stage as realistic as a good 3-way speaker can. I will not start building the subs before i've first listened to the monitors alone, but i am quite confident i will decide to build them.
I have heard big high-end speakers, with big woofers, and i liked the sound of them. I have also heard a 3-way design incorporating the Scan Speak 21W/8555 (Qtc 0,6), and liked it a lot, but is still prefer the easier way bass comes from bigger units.
 
There is no denying that bass from a larger drive unit sounds more effortless and real. I often use the analogy of stirring paint with a stick vs paddle. You need considerably more stirring with a stick to achieve the same effect. I've used a single 25W8565-01 (sealed) in a 70L box to good effect. Nice balance of sensitivity and extension, and probably the best compromise in terms of amp-friendliness and sonic effectiveness. However, a pair of 21W8555-01s (sealed) offers considerably more sensitivity and sacrifices only a little bass extension for the same box volume. Both 21W and 25W are exceptional woofers that sound very good between 40Hz and 400Hz.

HTH

James
 
tnx for your reply. I have also considered using 2 sets of 8555's, but I don't think that would be the best for the money, considering they will be used only below about 150 hz!
I've still got to run the other drivers you mentioned in WinISD.
Have you also heard or maybe even used the W23 4557T? I wonder how such a woofer would compare to the much less expensive Peerless XXLS 12" (830845). The latter needs a bigger box, but I can get a Qtc of 0,685 in a 120 L box. The Scan speak would give a Qtc of ),57 in a box of the same size. It would also go deeper.
I've read very good things about the Peerless, for it having extremely low distortion. I don't know how it would compare to the more expensive Scan Speak. Would it justify the extra amount of money?
 
I haven't heard the Peerless, but I believe they are considered sub-woofers rather than woofers. If you are operating them below 150Hz, then the Peerless might be quite effective. Otherwise, my money is on the Scan-speak.

The 23W is also a sub, and with that you get very low sensitivity, which must be factored into the overall equation if you are planning on a totally passive system.

James
 
bass is going to be the actively drive part, with passive monitors, as mentioned in my first post. I guess the bass section will be crossed at around 150 hz. This means the bass section is not really a subwoofer, as the monitors will now only have to do some upper bass. I already have a 24 db/oct. crossover. Frequency, gain and phase are adjustable. I also have a powerful enough stereo amp (200 watt @ 8 ohm). The low sensitivity of the SS W23 won't be a problem, i think.
The driver i need should be a subwoofer driver, that also plays well up to some 400 hz or so, right?
I don't really know how to judge a woofer by their parameters alone. Does anyone know of a really good unit for this application? I just want to do this right at once, and not find out i should have bought another driver once i've bought and built the sub!
 
I use 12 xls for car in my car and they are the fastest sub I heard but dont play them higher then 60 hz
I made a sub 12 xls for home for my DAD in his basement with 340watts amp and passive rad.Its impressive the only sub who could withstand the shaking in lord of the ring.and it to was cut at 55hz
 
hmm... not easy
considering that it´s about a lot of money, i want to do it right at once. Is there anyone who´s experienced enough to tell which unit will be best, looking at the T/S-parameters, and also able to explain why?
for now: XXLS needs a slightly bigger box, and goes a bit less low. Maybe it responds a bit slower to transients but i'm not sure (I read on the Adire site that a lower Le means quicker response to transients. The SS has Le of 0,45 mh, opposed to 2.8 mh for the XXLS). A pro for the XXLS is it's higher sensitivity, and its ability to play a bit louder than the ScanSpeak. Another major advantage is its lower price. I do really want a low Qtc, for very tight and quick bass for music-use only. The SS can be put in a smaller box. Smaller box means a sturdier and more dead box, which is a good thing.
Anyone something to add to the list?:)
 
Keyser, the XXLS is a subwoofer and does a different job to a woofer. As far as subs go, the XXLS is a good low distortion driver with more useable top end than many other subs. However, I think you can do better. Consider other subs like those based on XBL2 technology, or those with a shorting ring or distortion optimised motor. Apparently the TC2+ measures lower distortion than the XLS.

I think you should first decide on sub vs woofer, then make your driver choice.

For a sub, a good way to integrate is with a sealed mid box with a Q of 0.707 and an F3 @ 80 Hz, which becomes the point at which to cross to sub.

If you go with a woofer, then you might cross higher 200 - 300 Hz. Then a sub won't do the job well.

I would not get caught up in thinking that Qts equates to driver quality. Linkwitz uses the XLS for its low distortion, NOT for its Qts primarily, although he states that it is easier to get the desired eq in his particular case.
 
Hi Keyser,

I have tested a 4557T. While extremely low distortion up to it's limits, it is xmax limited an makes a rather unpleasent metallic clank at the extremes of displacement. It's a bit small to be used as a sub in a full range 3 way. As a compact 3 way in a small to medium room, it would be very good.

At least preliminarily, the xls12, RS12, RS10, and TC2+ have better extreme low end excursion.

So I guess it depends on how low you want to go.

I will be testing an xls, tc2, rs12, and hopefully an xxls if I can get one in the next month or so...
 
UCLA, I just had a look at your website and especially welcome your article showing how to read distortion measurements!

I'm very interested to see your measurements of subs. One thing I'm curious about is the distortion of various methods of reducing distortion. eg. how do shorting rings, servos and flat BL motor designs compare in their ability to reduce distortion?

Adire seem to think that their XBL2 motors don't really need shorting rings or servos, but what interests me is the idea of a sub which has all 3.

What I'd like to see most is a driver like that with an xmax around 20mm - to get more than this seems to be very expensive. Also its very hard to design a decent sized (ie not huge) vented sub with ultra high xmax drivers.

The excursion of the XXLS subs is a bit low IMO - they could use a bit more even just for a bit of extra headroom.

Another question. Do you see it as a problem if one uses a sub from 20 - 40 Hz and it doesn't have very good distortion performance? Supposing that there is music content covered by the sub around say 40 Hz which results in say 3rd order harmonic distortion in the more critical range. That would mean 120 Hz 3rd order distortion products? 200 Hz 5th order?
 
I have very good experience with the Seas L21RNX/P (in Germany and The Netherlands it's called W21NAL) in a bass-reflex configuration. The larger counterpart of this unit, L26RFX/P (H1209), is best used in a closed cabinet and has a Fs of just 20Hz and a Qts of 0.34, see http://www.seas.no/seas_line/H1209.pdf

At this moment I don't have the opportunity to calculate the right box volume, but if you are interested in this unit, please let me know, I would be happy to make the calculations for you.

BTW, Seas units are normally easy to get in The Netherlands (I live there too), but are much cheaper in Germany, even with the costs of transportation!

Kind regards,

Emiel
 
Konnichiwa,

keyser said:
Could anyone suggest a good woofer and box?

Stop playing around too much with toys. Try some serious Pro-Audio drivers. This article may proove illuminating:

The Almighty Sub-woofer

I would also suggets to reconsider the Scan Monitor if you still can. My experience hearing many Speakers (commercial mainly) using the 8545/46 etc. Scan Drivers is that the midrange is just plainly bad. Bass is often okay(ish) treble depends on the Tweeter, I do not care much for domes.

Especially try finding drivers with low compression (in "HiFi" that means Dynaudio or Morel or certain specific seas units).

Sayonara
 
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