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Yamaha berylium tweeters
Yamaha berylium tweeters
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Old 7th September 2005, 04:34 AM   #31
Al.M is offline Al.M  Myanmar
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I have been playing with a project for a few years using the NS1000 tweeter with the beryllium mids and Scanspeak 2x8535 woofers in a slim cabinet. I would agree with others that you are crossing over too low at 2.5-3khz which I tried and the sound was like you describe. The Yamaha NS1000 crossover points are very simple 500 & 6000hz 2nd order with volume pots (I have the schematic & values). I recently obtained a newish 10 year old rosewood pair of NS1000 which is slightly bigger than the black studio NS1000M. It seems to have more bass than the NS1000M and overall much smoother sounding with excellent integrated bass, midrange & tweeter sound. My DIY version is not as smooth and integrated but I used better quality crossover parts and the sound is more detailed and with deeper bass.

Overall the speaker is still one of the most detailed I have heard that keeps up with Accuton C279 midrange sound etc, infact much more detailed midrange that hits with incredible lively impact on upper drum and wind instrument notes. I would rate the NS1000 tweeter, within its design range, as better than a Seas Millenium, SS9900, 9800 & 9500, but not against Raven R1 or R2 (more extended), but it is obviously easier/better integrated with the beryllium mids.

I laughed when JMLAb brought out their Be series big fancy speakers almost claiming they were the only ones to use beryllium, and yes only in their tweeters, while Yamaha have for the last 30 years used them for midrange also.

Also you must use correct amplification such as valves to bring out the best from NS1000s. Most solid state amps will not due and sound edgy & grainy.

My main critism of the NS1000 is that imaging is flat & average compared to other cone midrange speakers.
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Old 7th September 2005, 01:16 PM   #32
Sjef is offline Sjef  Netherlands
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Salas: Thanks for your time and effort on the bessel array, defenitly gonna try that some day.

The frequency response of the NS1000 that you posted show the same HF roll-off as I measured on my tweeters, so they might be o.k. after all.

Yes it seems that the tweeters can not be used anywhere lower than 6kHz, that's a mismatch with the PHL 1220. I will try them with my Phy-Hp's. Even if the tweeter would sound better I think they do not match very well together. At least I can see if the Yamaha's are more capable than what they are doing now.
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Old 7th September 2005, 02:26 PM   #33
carlosfm is offline carlosfm  Portugal
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Quote:
Originally posted by Al.M
I laughed when JMLAb brought out their Be series big fancy speakers almost claiming they were the only ones to use beryllium, and yes only in their tweeters, while Yamaha have for the last 30 years used them for midrange also.
Me too.
Yamaha uses them for 30 years, and JBL for around 20.
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Old 7th September 2005, 03:08 PM   #34
sdclc126 is offline sdclc126  United States
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sjef
Salas: Thanks for your time and effort on the bessel array, defenitly gonna try that some day.

The frequency response of the NS1000 that you posted show the same HF roll-off as I measured on my tweeters, so they might be o.k. after all.

Yes it seems that the tweeters can not be used anywhere lower than 6kHz, that's a mismatch with the PHL 1220. I will try them with my Phy-Hp's. Even if the tweeter would sound better I think they do not match very well together. At least I can see if the Yamaha's are more capable than what they are doing now.
Please let us know what you finally come up with - & please post photos!

P.S. - can someone please tell me just what a Bessel Array is, and where I can find some info on it? If there were any links earlier in this thread I missed them. Thanks!
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Old 7th September 2005, 03:31 PM   #35
Scottmoose is offline Scottmoose  United Kingdom
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Ah, Bessel arrays. One of the great sacred cows of line array design. That doesn't mean they're not worth bothering with, just that you have to know what it is you're doing, and what you're hoping to achieve.

One of the problems with line arrays is that the vertical polar response of most is not so great (that's the polite version, though I will at this point admitt to being a fan of line arrays, and intend to build one when funds permit and I've completed my OB project). With a Bessel array, you wire the drivers so that the vertical size of the array appears to vary with the frequency. This is a particular problem at high[er] frequencies, because of the different distances the sound has to travel -short distance near the centre, further near the ends. There's a few ways you can create a Bessel array; the easiest way to get this sort of effect is probably to power-taper the line[s]. However a point from the (useful) LDSG site, which is often forgotten:

"most references to Bessel arrays fail to mention that they're only effective at listening distances equal to, or greater than, approximately ten times the array length. This makes them unsuitable for most home application, although they're used to good effect in many stage and professional systems."

Not so good, especially because one of the principle objects and advantages of a home line array is to deliberately place the listener entirely in the near-field listening position, which is not exactly going to happen if you're sitting 10 times the line-length away from the blasted thing.

Still, I suspect that there is some truth in both views. Have a look at Jim Griffin's white paper on line arrays here: http://www.audiodiycentral.com/resource/pdf/nflawp.pdf

towards the end, you'll find a section on power-tapering and some wiring schematics for doing this. I doubt it'd be really worth the effort to power-taper the mid/bass array line, but at the very least it wouldn't do any harm to apply some to the tweeter line.
Cheers
Scott
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Old 7th September 2005, 04:37 PM   #36
Salas is offline Salas  Greece
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Yamaha berylium tweeters
Very good summary indeed!
I only want to add that in a Bessel you have to phase invert some points too. A Bessel sounds spherical and I prefer it horizontal for tweeters. This way some rough edges can be driven up or down the useful vertical window. In the case of the one I proposed, you can find it 'geling' at over 2.2m, that is acceptable I believe in most domestic situations.
I think Macintosh does just that in their new speaker line.
I hope that the use of much radiating area and very low Fs (compared to a typical dome tweeter) will help our friend's situation.
As for in pro reinforcement sector I think that a Bessel can be very close to using physical waveguides. Meyer has some whitepapers showing that a linearray analysis in the end of the day reminds more of a constricted Bessel, and JBL stated (after a year of measuring in a leased arena their Vertecs) that the linearray speakers tend to have certain characteristics due to inherent dispersion control and not due to some cylindrical wave formation.
I have listened to this one which is a Bessel with some creative stuff in its controller so to cut the rough edges and it was good, doing the job without creative plumbing in the waveguides. Each speaker can play alone too and be double value to the installer who can lease em individually rather than having the system in the back of a lorry waiting for the next gig booking.
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Old 7th September 2005, 05:05 PM   #37
sdclc126 is offline sdclc126  United States
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Thanks for that - I have Griffin's paper but just haven't read it yet. The Bessel sounds a little over my head and rather impractical - I think I might start another thread on LAs with some other questions also.
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Old 7th September 2005, 10:21 PM   #38
Scottmoose is offline Scottmoose  United Kingdom
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Power tapering the tweeter line isn't overly difficult -it just involves connecting set groups of drivers together so as to create different loads. Ditto the mid/bass line if you want to try that as well. Perhaps not quite a 'true' Bessel array, but some similar results.
If you're thinking of building an Array, make sure Jim's White Paper is top of the reading list -really, it contains almost everything you need to know. However, I wouldn't pretend it's the easiest read on the planet...
Cheers
Scott
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