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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Help to design a bookshelf to beat Onix Reference 1 Monitor
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Old 2nd September 2005, 04:56 AM   #11
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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Quote:
Originally posted by simon5
I agree with you. Do you think it could achieve the performance of the Onix monitor?
I have not heard the Onix monitor, but I think the designer of a speaker plays an important role. It takes some time to get the best performance out of any drivers no matter how good they are. The way Jordans are designed will give very good resolution, and are not so forgiving if the source equipment are not good. Paper cones normally have slightly less resolution, but can sound very good as well if you don't notice the difference in resolution.

I certainly would like for someone would let you try before you buy, anyone doing that for the FR125? I haven't heard them before, and I don't think it's that easy to find here.
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Old 2nd September 2005, 06:50 AM   #12
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Help to design a bookshelf to beat Onix Reference 1 Monitor
Quote:
Originally posted by simon5
I had no comments about using the fullrange FR125S alone.
I'm a big fan of the FR125 -- i'm listening to a pair right now, They aren't the be all & end all, but they are really good value for the dollar.

A single pair is also quite a bit under your budget limit.

You can consider 2 pair for a bipole (or 1.5 way system), or the addition of a helper woofer (althou with a sub already in place, the 70-80 Hz you can get out of the FR with an aperiodic box that may just be complicating things).

If you want to consider a tweeter, the WR125 is probably a better bet. You can do a traditional XO, or you can take advantage of the extended range and just add a cap XOed tweeter -- on the weekend we heard them mated with both a waveguide loaded ApexJr tweeter (diyAudio price 2 for $1 USD -- the caps & shipping are going to cost more than the tweeter) and the RAW ribbon (closest available ribbon -- the Aurum Cantus G2si). The ribbon is way too efficient for just a cap, but showed real promise once we got it tolerable by XOing with a 1 uF cap (ie 20 kHz XO). The speaker with the ApexJr tweeter was much better balanced (just a 1.7 uF cap). Despite being almost free its performance & match with the WR is very good (i've been including a pair with every pair of WR125s i've been selling) Using something like the SEAS tweeter should land you somewhere in-between. With the SEAS you also have the flexibility to build a more complex XO that brings the tweeter lower and rolls off the woofer -- a simple series XO might work well.

Other drivers to consider for mid duty are things like the Fostex FE108ES -- it has better midrange (it has better mids than most drivers) than the FR125 but won't reach down as low to meet the sub (plus getting these to integrate with a woofer is harder) & is a bit spendier. The FE127 would also be a candidate, with a bit better bass extension than the FE108ES (in a convential cabinet) but still not as deep as the FR or WR.

It is hard to go wrong with the FR or WR as the core of a relatively inexpensive speaker.

dave
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Old 2nd September 2005, 06:53 AM   #13
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Help to design a bookshelf to beat Onix Reference 1 Monitor
Quote:
Originally posted by soongsc
FR125... I don't think it's that easy to find here.
Until about 2 weeks ago they weren't really available anywhere....

dave
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Old 2nd September 2005, 07:20 AM   #14
BobPM is offline BobPM  United States
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I just went throught the same process as you are. There are a lot of choices and it was difficult to pick one.

After waffling for some time, I went with the www.zaphaudio.com design using the Seas L18 midwoofer along with the TBFCG tweeter. I have just received all the parts and they are sitting in my living room waiting for me to return from a businees trip to put it together. The parts were about $650 including parts-express cabinets and better quality crossoever components I bought from Danny Richie at GR-research. The cost increase for the crossover parts was not that dramatic over the lower quality components.

I also considered the U-Pee (usher tweeter) variation of the Pee Creek design at speakerbuilder.net as well as the AV-1 from GR-research. I auditioned the AV-1 and felt the mid range was not quite as forward as I like.

The Seas millenium combination sounds great (A friend of mine owns the BESL 5MT) but you would be hard pressed to get all of the parts for any Seas millenium design for under $900, especially if you used the quality crossover components these drivers deserve. At any rate, the forums seem very fond of the L18 and TBFCG drivers -- some even rate the TBFCG above the millenium tweeter.

I will document my constrction of the zaph L18 and offer my impressions when they are done.

Good luck on your project search.

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Old 2nd September 2005, 07:20 AM   #15
samplesj is offline samplesj  United States
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Keep in mind that some people consider the Onix Ref1s bright. I got a set for my wife as a casual system in the den when the Ref1 + SP3 combo first came out. On the tubes they were ok, but I couldn't handle them in the HT room with SS gear. Part of the price of the Refs is the finish, if he is looking at potentially blemished B-Stock then it could be too much $ for what he is getting.

I think someone above has already mentioned the discontinued Criterions from GR-Research, but I wanted to add just the normal A/V series to the mix too. The 3s are towers, but as bookshelves you could do 1s or 2s, or even a pair of sealed 3s (only good to high 80s though). Even with Sonicaps and Black Hole 5 you won't hit $600.

I just started replacing my HT system with some GR Research AV series kits. On a lark I lugged the A/V-3s into the den and hooked them up to the tubes and we were both blown away. The 3s were much richer and smoother. They didn't seem to have a loss of detail either. She has already told me to sell the Refs and make another pair of 3s for her, but I'm sort of thinking I'll either do the new 4s or wait for the new joint venture GR-Research/RAW ribbon AV series kits.

Jeremy
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Old 2nd September 2005, 07:37 AM   #16
simon5 is offline simon5  Canada
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Well, I was considering the FR125S even in the two-way since the frequency response is flatter according to the charts available on CSS website.

I know it's under the budget limit but if it's enough then why not!

Do you think I can get better sound with the FR125S with a Seas 27 TBFC/G or 27 TDFC tweeter crossed at 5 kHz with a 2nd order Linkwitz-Riley? That's what I'm thinking about. That would cost only 210$+shipping. Any problems with that idea?

Thanks!
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Old 2nd September 2005, 07:43 AM   #17
simon5 is offline simon5  Canada
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Thanks BobPM, I told him about that design, it's well documented and probably sounds very good. Less risky than my idea.

Thanks Jeremy, I will definitely tell him to go listen to them before buying since he likes sharp highs, but not harsh highs.
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Old 2nd September 2005, 08:46 AM   #18
Salas is offline Salas  Greece
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Help to design a bookshelf to beat Onix Reference 1 Monitor
Default A design to consider

I have made this one that proved very satisfying and wont hurt the budget. It has much of the Seas metal woofer pioneered tone.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...threadid=59447
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Old 2nd September 2005, 11:54 AM   #19
ABS is offline ABS  United States
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I haven't heard the FR125S but I have experience with the WR125S. In the case of the WR125S the off-axis response above around 4-5K is less than optimal. The FR version may be somewhat better, but I would expect it to have similar dispersion issues in the higher frequency range. I designed a really nice minimonitor using the WR125S and the DX19 Vifa tweeter. For the money the design sounds surprisingly good. You can see my design in the last pages of this thread:

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showt...&pagenumber=14

I give a couple of cross-over design options in the thread. I would recommend using the 1.8mH inductor for a more mid-forward sound and probably a 1.1 ohm resistor on the tweeter to match.

If your buddy is using a subwoofer then you might consider keeping these in a sealed enclosure rather than ported. This should "clean up" the low frequency a little since there wouldn't be any group delay. The design should play down to around 100hz nearly flat in the Parts Express box.

Personally, I would recommend using a tweeter with either the FR or WR unit since the diameter of the woofer will certainly cause a decrease in high frequency dispersion no matter what you do.

One last comment, the mid-range performance of the CSS drivers is really great and I would say that they perform very favorably tompared to other 2-way monitors I've heard.
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Old 4th September 2005, 12:14 AM   #20
FE3T is offline FE3T  Norway
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I think that in this case i would have used dual Morel 5" (MW 142) in a D. Appalito configuration with one of Morels chambered domes.
A sealed box with a Q below 0,6 should meet the sub nicely.

A simple 6db/octave x over with good components should make the speakers pretty easy too get rigth.
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