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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

cone breakup
cone breakup
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Old 13th December 2020, 08:21 PM   #151
markbakk is offline markbakk  Netherlands
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Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
but poor frequency response is also a distortion and that is more likely the root cause of fatigue.
That I can affirm on a N=1 (being me) test result
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Old 14th December 2020, 02:57 AM   #152
Dave Bullet is offline Dave Bullet  New Zealand
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In terms of fatigue - I am of the opinion it isn't from the higher odd order peaks from the L15 you can see in my graphs above. The distortion does "taint" the sound. I could hear this on acoustic guitar.

However - I've found the fatigue is a flat frequency response in the 1 - 5KHz range. I found a BBC dip of sorts (effected by pushing the LR slopes apart for mid/tweeter) created a broad 3dB onaxis dip which made this much better for long term listening.

I need to get in room and gated power responses to see what was going on - but regardless of where I crossed the L15 - fatigue was there with the tweeter playing "too hot" (i.e. flat).

I also intend to disconnect the tweeter and just play the L15 to see if anything offensive is there for fatigue.

Edit: The fatigue is also quite dependent on the recording I am playing. "harsh" recordings on my lesser speakers are more listenable, but they don't extract the detail from the great recordings. Vice-versa for my more detailed speakers.
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Last edited by Dave Bullet; 14th December 2020 at 03:05 AM.
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Old 14th December 2020, 03:15 AM   #153
diyiggy is offline diyiggy
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exactly the same feeling with that range... flat here is too much hot for my taste whatever the room. Think people are slighty different here.


However I wish I could test with different phase integration and filter slopes to be sure about that on diferent loudspeakers...
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Old 14th December 2020, 03:21 AM   #154
Dave Bullet is offline Dave Bullet  New Zealand
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Although off topic - phase alignment is an interesting one. It seems the overall power and in room response is what dominates our listening experience. This might seem obvious... but it tells me <1% distortion or 10 degrees of phase difference... don't actually mean anything. The phase alignment results in the frequency response.. Put it this way - I wonder if I could tell in a blind test a BW vs. LR aligned system having identical frequency responses at the same listening position?
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Old 14th December 2020, 03:47 AM   #155
diyiggy is offline diyiggy
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... you could listen to the cone break-ups faster (sooner) with the LR12 ? I just wanted to say than harmonics being a part of how the brain are checking the instruments accuracy, one maybe want those harmonics are coming in time to avoid listening fatigue. But I just don't know, it' just I was thinking about what Earl Geddes said about the 1K hz range and above : don't miss it in your design. Imo it stays on topic with the object of this thread.


If most of the (acoustical) music and its spl live below 1 K hz, you must need the above range for the accurate reproduction (as original perception)... harmonics (so also disonances of some odd harmonics at the right spl and timing to make instruments acurate ! Hence the question if that can be wasted by the harmonics mask of the speaker/driver/filter, harmonics break-ups of hard cones, sub harmonics break-ups of soft dome, etc ! So just an opinion, I'm not a scientist.



But perhaps it slight towards the theory of human hearing...too much. Sorry for that, let's back to the topic.
I would like to ask aboy the cone break-ups of a 8" hard-dome, dunno if I dare !
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Old 14th December 2020, 07:46 AM   #156
Juhazi is online now Juhazi  Finland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diyiggy View Post
exactly the same feeling with that range... flat here is too much hot for my taste whatever the room. Think people are slighty different here.

However I wish I could test with different phase integration and filter slopes to be sure about that on diferent loudspeakers...
Easy to test with dsp-crossover eg. minidsp. been there, done that and yes, we are extremely sensitive for spl changes in 2-3kHz area. Heard of Flwtcher-Munson curve...? One more reason is that many rooms have high RT in that range too.
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Old 14th December 2020, 10:58 AM   #157
markbakk is offline markbakk  Netherlands
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Not to forget that between 2-3kHz a lot of speakers cross over to a tweeter that radiates 180 degrees (2π), whereas a lot of midranges and bass-midranges do not. So you get a sound power discontinuity in that region, certainly with acoustical untreated room boundaries. No news though.
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Old 14th December 2020, 06:09 PM   #158
diyiggy is offline diyiggy
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often refered in Loodspeaker Cook-books as SD too big mismatch between drivers in multiways designs...
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