so just glue the butt joint?
is that really strong enough? i always thought just gluing wood together like that is cheesy, but if it works...
how about tounge-and-groove? i'm thinking of buliding a small set of speakers. my dad has bought a whole slew of tools recently, including a router, drill press, 2 table saws, jig saw, etc. etc., so if i get the right jigs/bits i should be able to do a fairly large variety of joints. also, i am thinking about using solid wood for it. yes MDF is far better acoustically but these are just TV speakers so i'm not too concerned about resonance, just want something that is solid, looks nice, and is easy to build.
cheers,
dorkus
is that really strong enough? i always thought just gluing wood together like that is cheesy, but if it works...
how about tounge-and-groove? i'm thinking of buliding a small set of speakers. my dad has bought a whole slew of tools recently, including a router, drill press, 2 table saws, jig saw, etc. etc., so if i get the right jigs/bits i should be able to do a fairly large variety of joints. also, i am thinking about using solid wood for it. yes MDF is far better acoustically but these are just TV speakers so i'm not too concerned about resonance, just want something that is solid, looks nice, and is easy to build.
cheers,
dorkus
woodworking joints
The rule when designing joint is to use the simplest joint that will do the job.
If the job includes aesthetics, then consider that as well (miters, dovetails, mitred dovetails, etc)
Tongue and groove is usually used to join edge-to-edge to construct larger flat panels, floors, table tops,etc. Very strong. More glue surface area than butt.
Should consider simple rabbet joints, glue-jointed rabbets, etc. but you're getting into shapers and routers!
Don't think that a Dremel tool can make any kind of decent cut on anything beyond balsa wood. Cuts on wood (solid or otherwise) should be made with tools designed for that. Dremel is not it, if we are talking about the model making kind.
But back to original question, you want mitre then go for it! But, use the right tool and techniques (table saw, radial arm)
good luck
Rick
The rule when designing joint is to use the simplest joint that will do the job.
If the job includes aesthetics, then consider that as well (miters, dovetails, mitred dovetails, etc)
Tongue and groove is usually used to join edge-to-edge to construct larger flat panels, floors, table tops,etc. Very strong. More glue surface area than butt.
Should consider simple rabbet joints, glue-jointed rabbets, etc. but you're getting into shapers and routers!
Don't think that a Dremel tool can make any kind of decent cut on anything beyond balsa wood. Cuts on wood (solid or otherwise) should be made with tools designed for that. Dremel is not it, if we are talking about the model making kind.
But back to original question, you want mitre then go for it! But, use the right tool and techniques (table saw, radial arm)
good luck
Rick
End gluing solid wood or plywood makes for a weak joint, but MDF doesn't have grain, so this is not an issue. If you are really concerned about strength, just glue/screw a 3/4" x 3/4" strip of MDF behind the joint. This is still a lot less than work than messing around with miters or dado's.
Now in a PA speaker, I am very concerned about strength, these boxes are made from high grade (Baltic Birch) plywood and get handled roughly on a regular basis. There a dado or stronger joint is definately indicated (plus steel hardware on the corners).
Phil
Now in a PA speaker, I am very concerned about strength, these boxes are made from high grade (Baltic Birch) plywood and get handled roughly on a regular basis. There a dado or stronger joint is definately indicated (plus steel hardware on the corners).
Phil
Butt joint is the way to go. 45 deg. cuts are very hard to do properly. If you have Sears around, you probably have Home Depot as well and I suggest you to cut everything there, you'll save yourself a lot of trouble. At least in my area HD has the best saws and if you keep an eye on the operator the cuts will be very accurate.
I don't really see a way to use tongue and groove technique for speaker building; for roofs, yes.
I don't really see a way to use tongue and groove technique for speaker building; for roofs, yes.
First, navin, yes, you did use the wrong term, you're talking about a dado. Also, while I'm talking to you, your idea of dowels will also work to strengthen the joint quite well.
Dorkus, tongue and groove will improve the strength of the joint, but I think you're working too hard to strengthen a joint that doesn't need it. (Especially if they're a smaller speaker! You wouldn't happen to have engineering blood in you would you?) As a thought, since you want to use solid wood, you could take the miter idea and use navin's idea of reinfocring it with dowels of a different colored wood. Thus, instead of hiding them, use them as an accent! (To see this in action, look at Arts and Crafts furniture where the joints are actually emphasized!)
Hope this helps you out!
Dorkus, tongue and groove will improve the strength of the joint, but I think you're working too hard to strengthen a joint that doesn't need it. (Especially if they're a smaller speaker! You wouldn't happen to have engineering blood in you would you?) As a thought, since you want to use solid wood, you could take the miter idea and use navin's idea of reinfocring it with dowels of a different colored wood. Thus, instead of hiding them, use them as an accent! (To see this in action, look at Arts and Crafts furniture where the joints are actually emphasized!)
Hope this helps you out!
hi shaef,
ok... i thought tounge and groove would be easier than dado or mitred but i could be wrong... i've seen furniture where the joints are highlighed with a different type of wood and it looks nice, but not quite the look i'm going for, so i'll probably try one of the more concealed joints.
thanx,
dorkus
p.s. yup, i was an EE in college...
ok... i thought tounge and groove would be easier than dado or mitred but i could be wrong... i've seen furniture where the joints are highlighed with a different type of wood and it looks nice, but not quite the look i'm going for, so i'll probably try one of the more concealed joints.
thanx,
dorkus
p.s. yup, i was an EE in college...
Oh goody, I'm dealing with a bunch of engineers, no wonder you guys want to build Sherman Tanks instead of speaker enclosures!!!! (Just kidding!)
dorkus, you can use the tongue and groove technique, there's nothing wrong with it. Its just not as easy as the dado joint. With the tongue and groove, you have to get both of them just right and snug or the joint becomes extremely weak. With a dado, you just cut the dado, put the other piece in, and if the dado is a little too deep, just use a trim bit in a router to clean it up! The dado is just more forgiving, that's all.
Bob2, have you ever used the lock miter stuff before? From what I've read, they're great joints, but they're a pain to get the bits set up right! So, since they're not really needed in this case, I'd say to avoid this joint, unless you want a joint that looks pretty.
navin, course in vibration engineering?? Now that explains a lot!!
dorkus, you can use the tongue and groove technique, there's nothing wrong with it. Its just not as easy as the dado joint. With the tongue and groove, you have to get both of them just right and snug or the joint becomes extremely weak. With a dado, you just cut the dado, put the other piece in, and if the dado is a little too deep, just use a trim bit in a router to clean it up! The dado is just more forgiving, that's all.
Bob2, have you ever used the lock miter stuff before? From what I've read, they're great joints, but they're a pain to get the bits set up right! So, since they're not really needed in this case, I'd say to avoid this joint, unless you want a joint that looks pretty.
navin, course in vibration engineering?? Now that explains a lot!!
what is wrong with build a sherman tank? there is an old american saying from detroit "there is no substitute for horse power".
yes vibration engg. if you see my website you will know why (http://www.emagindia.com).
I dont know if you are following some of my other threads but I am trying to build a lead lined enclosure (or was untill Dave - planet 10 suggested otherwise). I am looking at 2kg per liter as a mass to volume ratio for my box. It might be a bit extreme given that the drivers i am using are not that great (Vifa TC series) but I want to see if one can build a good pair of speakers using relatively cheap drivers.
cheers
yes vibration engg. if you see my website you will know why (http://www.emagindia.com).
I dont know if you are following some of my other threads but I am trying to build a lead lined enclosure (or was untill Dave - planet 10 suggested otherwise). I am looking at 2kg per liter as a mass to volume ratio for my box. It might be a bit extreme given that the drivers i am using are not that great (Vifa TC series) but I want to see if one can build a good pair of speakers using relatively cheap drivers.
cheers
Bob2,
You are correct that once the lock miter bits are set up, they do produce a very strong joint. The problem is the amount of time it takes to do that initial set up! (If you're interested, there are sites that show how to more easily reproduce that set up, once its initially done)
navin,
I never said there was anything wrong with building a sherman tank!! Its the way I design my woodworking stuff and sets I build! I was just commenting on understanding why you were doing things that way! There's nothing wrong with it, just sometimes, the easier route produces equivalent results!
Oh, and yes, I have followed some of the other threads (and I think I may have posted in some of those as well) and know where you're coming from. Since you're looking at vibration, how about instead of going for mass to dampen the vibration, try something to absorb the vibration instead? Maybe something elastic between two layers of MDF?? I'm just offering suggestions here, I don't know, I'm a computer geek who butchers wood in his spare time and enjoys listening to music!!
Interesting site, so I take it you work with the vibrating portion of the product line. How do you isolate the vibration motors? Maybe use something from that to isolate vibrations inside the cabinet from the outside?
Just some ideas...
You are correct that once the lock miter bits are set up, they do produce a very strong joint. The problem is the amount of time it takes to do that initial set up! (If you're interested, there are sites that show how to more easily reproduce that set up, once its initially done)
navin,
I never said there was anything wrong with building a sherman tank!! Its the way I design my woodworking stuff and sets I build! I was just commenting on understanding why you were doing things that way! There's nothing wrong with it, just sometimes, the easier route produces equivalent results!
Oh, and yes, I have followed some of the other threads (and I think I may have posted in some of those as well) and know where you're coming from. Since you're looking at vibration, how about instead of going for mass to dampen the vibration, try something to absorb the vibration instead? Maybe something elastic between two layers of MDF?? I'm just offering suggestions here, I don't know, I'm a computer geek who butchers wood in his spare time and enjoys listening to music!!
Interesting site, so I take it you work with the vibrating portion of the product line. How do you isolate the vibration motors? Maybe use something from that to isolate vibrations inside the cabinet from the outside?
Just some ideas...
I have tried sand felt and other absorbent material but it seem easier to use these inside the box. Not better, Easier.
besides...(this might obe seriouslly off topic so one of those 18 stone moderators might object)....
1. we dont want ot isolate teh vibration but we want to control it and redirect the energy to move or sieve bulk material.
2. I work with all lines. I am responsible for ALL new product developement.
3.We also do work for many US and European companies on contract this work extends from makng magnets, motors, and other industrial products to their designs, specs, brands, and price points. These customes are confidential as they dont want the world to know where their prodcuts are sourced from.
4. We also have a IT team. Java and Oracle is one area we work in and Telecom software was an other area we have expertise (our contract was terminated as the company we were working with in the US went brankrupt but we still retain the expertise).
Cheers.
besides...(this might obe seriouslly off topic so one of those 18 stone moderators might object)....
1. we dont want ot isolate teh vibration but we want to control it and redirect the energy to move or sieve bulk material.
2. I work with all lines. I am responsible for ALL new product developement.
3.We also do work for many US and European companies on contract this work extends from makng magnets, motors, and other industrial products to their designs, specs, brands, and price points. These customes are confidential as they dont want the world to know where their prodcuts are sourced from.
4. We also have a IT team. Java and Oracle is one area we work in and Telecom software was an other area we have expertise (our contract was terminated as the company we were working with in the US went brankrupt but we still retain the expertise).
Cheers.
If you do make the 45 angle cut, there is a smart way to put all the 4 sides together: You lay 2 long pieces of tape, with the sticky side up. Then lay your speakersides so the 2 tapepieces is close to edges. The outsides of your speakersides must be towards the tape. Be carefull, that the sharp sides of the 45 angle is towards eachother. Then fold the hole thing together, and the tape will hold it all together. It makes nice kabinets, but use at least 5 cm wide tape.
Per,
I would have suggested that as a possibility as well, have seen professional woodworkers use this technique! I just decided to try to argue against the use of 45's as they're difficult to get right, and other joints work just as well. But, yes, its a good, simple and cheap way to hold the joints closed! (As long as you don't have to exert a lot of pressure to hold it closed!)
I would have suggested that as a possibility as well, have seen professional woodworkers use this technique! I just decided to try to argue against the use of 45's as they're difficult to get right, and other joints work just as well. But, yes, its a good, simple and cheap way to hold the joints closed! (As long as you don't have to exert a lot of pressure to hold it closed!)
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