I am planning to build a smal speaker with a small sub (if you can call a 8" woofer a sub).
The small speaker will have a 6" Vifa woofer and 1" Vifa tweeter (models TC18WG49 and TC26TG05) the specs can be got from http://www.d-s-t.com/vifa/index.htm.
below this speaker I intend to add a small 8" woofer (active).
The 8" will provide bass reinforecement and also compensate for some difraction loss. The 8" woofer is a repaired Eminence woofer approx TS specs are Fs=35Hz and Qts 0.45. The cabinet of this woofer will act like a stand for the 6" 2 way described above.
1. can I use a 2ay 12db series XO with the Vifa drivers.
2. To make the cabinetry simple I intend using 4'x8' sheets of MDF and making the height of the speaker 4' (48"). Is this too tall? Should I put the 6" on top of the 1" so that the 1" can be closer to listening height (36-38").
3. At what height on the baffle should the 8" be? Roy Allison claims it should be as close to the ground as possible, else where I hear the center of the bass driver should be 16" (40cm) from the ground. And my common sense tells me it should as close to the 6" 2 way as phyisically possible so that all the sound is coming from as small a point as possible.
4. I intend to bend the cabinet side walls a la Sonus Faber Amati and Wilson Benesch Act 2. How thick a MDF can I bend. If the MDF is less than say 8mm (so that it is easier to bend) should I use layers. If I am using layers can I use lead sheet 2-3mm between the layers?
5. I intend to bolt the drivers to the cabinet instead of using screws as I want to integrate the drivers as solidly to teh cabinet as possible. Does is make sense to veneer the cabinet so that the bolts are covered/hidden. What are chances I burn a woofer or tweeter out. Usually I hear only tweeter burn out.
6. The baffle will be 30mm MDF. Since I am bolting the drivers shold I use a 3-4mm metal plate on the inside of the baffle so that the bolt does not bite into the wood?
7. I intend using a truss rod for each of the 6" and 8" drivers. The truss rod will be a plastic or metal tube filled with either lead shot, sand or thermacol pellets. Which combintion wouldone recomend?
Since I do not have regualr access to the net please email me at navin@vsnl.com
Regards
Navin
The small speaker will have a 6" Vifa woofer and 1" Vifa tweeter (models TC18WG49 and TC26TG05) the specs can be got from http://www.d-s-t.com/vifa/index.htm.
below this speaker I intend to add a small 8" woofer (active).
The 8" will provide bass reinforecement and also compensate for some difraction loss. The 8" woofer is a repaired Eminence woofer approx TS specs are Fs=35Hz and Qts 0.45. The cabinet of this woofer will act like a stand for the 6" 2 way described above.
1. can I use a 2ay 12db series XO with the Vifa drivers.
2. To make the cabinetry simple I intend using 4'x8' sheets of MDF and making the height of the speaker 4' (48"). Is this too tall? Should I put the 6" on top of the 1" so that the 1" can be closer to listening height (36-38").
3. At what height on the baffle should the 8" be? Roy Allison claims it should be as close to the ground as possible, else where I hear the center of the bass driver should be 16" (40cm) from the ground. And my common sense tells me it should as close to the 6" 2 way as phyisically possible so that all the sound is coming from as small a point as possible.
4. I intend to bend the cabinet side walls a la Sonus Faber Amati and Wilson Benesch Act 2. How thick a MDF can I bend. If the MDF is less than say 8mm (so that it is easier to bend) should I use layers. If I am using layers can I use lead sheet 2-3mm between the layers?
5. I intend to bolt the drivers to the cabinet instead of using screws as I want to integrate the drivers as solidly to teh cabinet as possible. Does is make sense to veneer the cabinet so that the bolts are covered/hidden. What are chances I burn a woofer or tweeter out. Usually I hear only tweeter burn out.
6. The baffle will be 30mm MDF. Since I am bolting the drivers shold I use a 3-4mm metal plate on the inside of the baffle so that the bolt does not bite into the wood?
7. I intend using a truss rod for each of the 6" and 8" drivers. The truss rod will be a plastic or metal tube filled with either lead shot, sand or thermacol pellets. Which combintion wouldone recomend?
Since I do not have regualr access to the net please email me at navin@vsnl.com
Regards
Navin
Bass positioning
Hi,
What is your speaker for?
If you are going to sit down and listen carefully, the drivers should point to you (toeing should be very studied), but if you are going to do the ironing or washing up, I think they must be fitted only for looking purposes.
The positioning of the bass speaker, since the wavelenght is far greater than the distance, has only to do with the room floor interaction. Unafortunately, only the tests will tell you the best positioning. I usually preffer the sound of woofers away the floor.
Bye.
Hi,
What is your speaker for?
If you are going to sit down and listen carefully, the drivers should point to you (toeing should be very studied), but if you are going to do the ironing or washing up, I think they must be fitted only for looking purposes.
The positioning of the bass speaker, since the wavelenght is far greater than the distance, has only to do with the room floor interaction. Unafortunately, only the tests will tell you the best positioning. I usually preffer the sound of woofers away the floor.
Bye.
the speakers will be for listening to music as well as part of a HT system.
the center speaker will either a MMTMM using 4 shielded Vifa 4" midbass and 1 shielded 1" Vifa tweeter or a MTM using 2 shielded Vifa 6" woofers and 1 shielded 1" Vifa tweeter. I prefer teh MMTMM as it is 2" lower in ht. but I have enough drivers to build both and decide.
the rear speakers are not known yet. presently the best bet i have a 2 old Boston Acoutics A40 or A60 speakers lyingboxed in my garage.
The front speakers will double as HT and Audio so those are what I want to build first.
Thanks.
navin
the center speaker will either a MMTMM using 4 shielded Vifa 4" midbass and 1 shielded 1" Vifa tweeter or a MTM using 2 shielded Vifa 6" woofers and 1 shielded 1" Vifa tweeter. I prefer teh MMTMM as it is 2" lower in ht. but I have enough drivers to build both and decide.
the rear speakers are not known yet. presently the best bet i have a 2 old Boston Acoutics A40 or A60 speakers lyingboxed in my garage.
The front speakers will double as HT and Audio so those are what I want to build first.
Thanks.
navin
Only Question 4 answered
Well, I can only comfortably approach your question #4, about the MDF stuff. Bending MDF and the ease there-of depends heavily on several factors. First is the amount of bend you want to do, and over what length. Secondly is the thickness of the material being bent. Finally would be the type of material itself. (MDF in this case) The thinner the material, the easier it is to bend and to get a tighter radius. Be careful with MDF, it is not that strong structurally, so if you go too tight, it'll just break. Not knowing how much of a bend we're talking about here, I can only make some general suggestions. First, going with the thinner MDF will make the actual bending easier, and yes, I would laminate a couple thicknesses together for speakers. As to the lead in between layers, I don't know. The biggest thing I would worry about would be securing the MDF to the lead sheet. Personally I wouldn't do it, too many things to go wrong. I would HIGHLY recommend building a jig for the sides so that you get a consistent form for all four sides. (two for each speaker)
Okay, I lied, I'm also going to comment about the baffle. Instead of putting a sheet of lead on the back to keep the bolt from biting into the wood, what's wrong with just a large washer? Again, much easier to work with and less to go wrong. I prefer to keep things simple when it comes to complex projects.
Hope this helps you out some!
Well, I can only comfortably approach your question #4, about the MDF stuff. Bending MDF and the ease there-of depends heavily on several factors. First is the amount of bend you want to do, and over what length. Secondly is the thickness of the material being bent. Finally would be the type of material itself. (MDF in this case) The thinner the material, the easier it is to bend and to get a tighter radius. Be careful with MDF, it is not that strong structurally, so if you go too tight, it'll just break. Not knowing how much of a bend we're talking about here, I can only make some general suggestions. First, going with the thinner MDF will make the actual bending easier, and yes, I would laminate a couple thicknesses together for speakers. As to the lead in between layers, I don't know. The biggest thing I would worry about would be securing the MDF to the lead sheet. Personally I wouldn't do it, too many things to go wrong. I would HIGHLY recommend building a jig for the sides so that you get a consistent form for all four sides. (two for each speaker)
Okay, I lied, I'm also going to comment about the baffle. Instead of putting a sheet of lead on the back to keep the bolt from biting into the wood, what's wrong with just a large washer? Again, much easier to work with and less to go wrong. I prefer to keep things simple when it comes to complex projects.
Hope this helps you out some!
The tweeter should be at ear level. The mid should usually be below it.
Well, where are you crossing the woofer over? The wavelengths at most bass frequencies are so big that there will be no problem with integrating the sub with the mid, even with a large distance between them (although you might want to consider front-back distance between the two because of phase problems which will mess with your crossover). I would put it as close to the floor as is possible. You will need all the bass augmentation you can get with a little 8".
That's up to you... personally, I wouldn't take the chance of something going wrong and having to destroy my cabinet to get in the enclosure.
I would use (correct name slips my mind right now) the nuts that are made for this- they have raised areas to bite into the wood on the back of the baffle.
yes i was thinking of using t nuts.
the sides would be 16" deep. the front would be 10" wide, the back would be 3" wide.
yes i need all the help I can use with the 8". However I am not looking at big bass. I have a 4 month old son (http://www.pbase.com/advani - shameless proud dad plug here
) so mt SPL needs are limited.
Also my son is the reason I am considering HT. We prefer to watch the TV nowadays than theater or live concerts.
Also the 8" will be active so there is room for some active EQ.
about veneer I might allow access to the tweeter (those I have blown - MDT 33 from morel that too) but I have never blown a woofer even in my "120db or bust" days. Well I blew out a JBL 2245 once - connected it to 220V AC but I was young and crazy then.
The Spica TC 50 as well asl other well known brands use the tweeter under the woofer so I was wondering if there was any advantage to this. To me this allows me to have the tweeter at ear level and save some wood cutting (albeit simple cuts).
thanks a lot guys but so far no one has taken up question 1. help! :0
Regards
Navin
the sides would be 16" deep. the front would be 10" wide, the back would be 3" wide.
yes i need all the help I can use with the 8". However I am not looking at big bass. I have a 4 month old son (http://www.pbase.com/advani - shameless proud dad plug here
) so mt SPL needs are limited.Also my son is the reason I am considering HT. We prefer to watch the TV nowadays than theater or live concerts.
Also the 8" will be active so there is room for some active EQ.
about veneer I might allow access to the tweeter (those I have blown - MDT 33 from morel that too) but I have never blown a woofer even in my "120db or bust" days. Well I blew out a JBL 2245 once - connected it to 220V AC but I was young and crazy then.
The Spica TC 50 as well asl other well known brands use the tweeter under the woofer so I was wondering if there was any advantage to this. To me this allows me to have the tweeter at ear level and save some wood cutting (albeit simple cuts).
thanks a lot guys but so far no one has taken up question 1. help! :0
Regards
Navin
I need a little more explanation with question 1... Why a series 2 way? Wouldn't a parallel 2nd order 2 way be the easiest? If you don't have the test equipment, have madisound do a crossover for you with leap... easiest way.
As far as mounting the woofer over the tweeter, it has been used in systems that have a first order network and are floor standers, because of the tilt provided by the crossover network (see Loudspeaker design cookbook).
I have a set of MTM's using two P17WJ's and I find the bass to be extended, but lacking in comparison. One reason I believe this is the case is that they are tall, and the port are mounted fairly high on the front... I'm not getting any help from the room this way. Why use more power from your sub amps than you have to? It will be cleaner with some help from the room- more sensitivity=more volume with less power, cone excursion, etc.
Steve
As far as mounting the woofer over the tweeter, it has been used in systems that have a first order network and are floor standers, because of the tilt provided by the crossover network (see Loudspeaker design cookbook).
I have a set of MTM's using two P17WJ's and I find the bass to be extended, but lacking in comparison. One reason I believe this is the case is that they are tall, and the port are mounted fairly high on the front... I'm not getting any help from the room this way. Why use more power from your sub amps than you have to? It will be cleaner with some help from the room- more sensitivity=more volume with less power, cone excursion, etc.
Steve
navin said:
Series XOs above 1st order get really tricky and i have seen little DIY on them. The text book formulas i have somewhere, i'd suggest starting out at Andy Graddon's site -- haven't got the URL handy (and i'm sneaking this post in when i should be working).
My friend Chris (the guy i get to build any cabinets that have to be presentable) just went thru a bunch of experiments building a curved back box. There is a specific, but somewhat pricey material that he says is all he will use. I'll see if i can get him to come explain.
dave
plywood would open up so I prefer to use MDF.
series XO because I want to try it out. I have used parallel XOs in the past but always find myself wanting more.
any views on lead sheet between layers of MDF?
I was thinkingof use 8mm MDF (3 layers) with lead between th layers. lead is heavy so it would dmap the box.
I can get 1.5mm lead sheet in a roll of 3' x 20' the weight would be about 100kg. 50kg of lead sheet per speaker would be adequate.
I live in India where foriegn exchage regualtions do not permit e paying Madisound to make a XO. I had to make do with drivers that had been imported by a local manufacturer that then went out of business.
the curves I am considering a gradual more like Wilson Benesch Act 2 and Sonus Faber Amati.
regards
navin
series XO because I want to try it out. I have used parallel XOs in the past but always find myself wanting more.
any views on lead sheet between layers of MDF?
I was thinkingof use 8mm MDF (3 layers) with lead between th layers. lead is heavy so it would dmap the box.
I can get 1.5mm lead sheet in a roll of 3' x 20' the weight would be about 100kg. 50kg of lead sheet per speaker would be adequate.
I live in India where foriegn exchage regualtions do not permit e paying Madisound to make a XO. I had to make do with drivers that had been imported by a local manufacturer that then went out of business.
the curves I am considering a gradual more like Wilson Benesch Act 2 and Sonus Faber Amati.
regards
navin
20 mill. +
half of these dont own a roof.
Of the half that do 7 million live in slums and huts.
Of the rest (3 million) less than 50,000 actually live in single family apts.
In the rest fo the cases there are 3 generations (often parents, 2 sons, their wives and children) squeezed into a 1000 sq. ft. 2 bedroom apt.
each son wiht wife and kids has a 150 sq. ft. bedroom
the parents use the living room and sleep on a sofa cum bed.
this is because an apt in Mumbai can cost $200 per sq. ft. or more and the average earning is about $200 per month. Something is not right but demand and supply and the lack of alternate cities and towns creates this imbalance.
Of the cities and towns I have visited and lived in (incl. Mexico City and Hong Kong) Mumbai offers its people the poorest standard of living. In India they say atleast it is living. In other cities in Mumbai there is not even that.
75% of India does not have electricity more than 12 hours a day. A similar % does not have access to water (even for 2 hours a day).
However this is seriously off topic!
Regards
Navin
half of these dont own a roof.
Of the half that do 7 million live in slums and huts.
Of the rest (3 million) less than 50,000 actually live in single family apts.
In the rest fo the cases there are 3 generations (often parents, 2 sons, their wives and children) squeezed into a 1000 sq. ft. 2 bedroom apt.
each son wiht wife and kids has a 150 sq. ft. bedroom
the parents use the living room and sleep on a sofa cum bed.
this is because an apt in Mumbai can cost $200 per sq. ft. or more and the average earning is about $200 per month. Something is not right but demand and supply and the lack of alternate cities and towns creates this imbalance.
Of the cities and towns I have visited and lived in (incl. Mexico City and Hong Kong) Mumbai offers its people the poorest standard of living. In India they say atleast it is living. In other cities in Mumbai there is not even that.
75% of India does not have electricity more than 12 hours a day. A similar % does not have access to water (even for 2 hours a day).
However this is seriously off topic!
Regards
Navin
Some more info
Well, I finally went and found some pictures of the speakers you were talking about, and I would have to say that YES you want to laminate layers!! As to the lead sheets between layers, I think you'll find that you'll have problems with maintaining the shape of the curve and securing the MDF to the lead. (I have no idea how you'll attach them, unless some type of two-part epoxy will work) I think the stiffness you'll get with the curve and anything the glue you use will add will make it pretty stiff that adding the lead will probably make little difference.
I definately recommend using t-nuts (and yes that's what others were trying to think of) to hold the drivers to the baffle. As to the lamination stuff, the picture that I get in my head is going to cause problems. (Are you planning to mount the drivers to the back of the baffle or the front?) In my mind I see the laminate coming loose from the drivers and buzzing.
These are just my thoughts....
Well, I finally went and found some pictures of the speakers you were talking about, and I would have to say that YES you want to laminate layers!! As to the lead sheets between layers, I think you'll find that you'll have problems with maintaining the shape of the curve and securing the MDF to the lead. (I have no idea how you'll attach them, unless some type of two-part epoxy will work) I think the stiffness you'll get with the curve and anything the glue you use will add will make it pretty stiff that adding the lead will probably make little difference.
I definately recommend using t-nuts (and yes that's what others were trying to think of) to hold the drivers to the baffle. As to the lamination stuff, the picture that I get in my head is going to cause problems. (Are you planning to mount the drivers to the back of the baffle or the front?) In my mind I see the laminate coming loose from the drivers and buzzing.
These are just my thoughts....
lead sheet at 1.5mm thickness is quite flexible. i was hoping to use an epoxy cement. but if you guys think I am going to have trouble I might avoid the lead sheet altogether.
in that case can anyone suiggest an alternate material to use between MDF layers?
the drivers will be bolted to the front of the baffle.
Regards
Navin
in that case can anyone suiggest an alternate material to use between MDF layers?
the drivers will be bolted to the front of the baffle.
Regards
Navin
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