I am currently building a surround sound system based on S. Linkwitz's Orion speakers.
For my amplification, I have determined that I will need 14 channels of amplification - 8 channels for the main speakers and 2 channels each for the three surround speakers.
I am trying to find decent amplification for a reasonable price. I am currently looking at the Panasonic SAXR-50 and the Kenwood VRS-7100. I am leaning towards the VRS-7100 because it seemed to run cooler and didn't have vents on the top.
Has anybody used either of these two amps? Did they work well?
Also, are there any other suggestions?
Thanks!
¿GotJazz?
For my amplification, I have determined that I will need 14 channels of amplification - 8 channels for the main speakers and 2 channels each for the three surround speakers.
I am trying to find decent amplification for a reasonable price. I am currently looking at the Panasonic SAXR-50 and the Kenwood VRS-7100. I am leaning towards the VRS-7100 because it seemed to run cooler and didn't have vents on the top.
Has anybody used either of these two amps? Did they work well?
Also, are there any other suggestions?
Thanks!
¿GotJazz?
You are looking at the wrong speaker. Take a look at my NaO design at http://www.musicanddesign.com/ Please go tot he old frre sight and look over the NaO.
If you can be patient undil the end of March I think you will be rewarded with the upcomming NaO II. For a setup like you are thinking you would need only a total of 6 channels of amplification. 4 for the L and R mains and 1 each for surrounds.
If you can be patient undil the end of March I think you will be rewarded with the upcomming NaO II. For a setup like you are thinking you would need only a total of 6 channels of amplification. 4 for the L and R mains and 1 each for surrounds.
Oh for crying out load John.
Jazz,
IMHO your best bet would be to DIY a multi-channel amp(s) similar to some of the excellent projects folks are building nowadays. I dunno...maybe a gainclone, UcD180, etc. There are some nice designs.
If you want to buy something ready to go I'd consider the ATI-6012 twelve channel amp. Convert/build your three surround speakers to passive and you'll be set. 8 channels plus 3 (with a fourth surround as an option) all from one amplifier. You might find one used or you could get a new one via Siegfried for a good price. Yes, a bit more money than a combination of two or more multi-channel recievers, but it is an excellent and more simple solution.
Another option would be to keep your eyes peeled on Ebay for a couple of used five/six channel amps. Maybe something like a Carver AV405X or similar.
Cheers,
Davey.
Jazz,
IMHO your best bet would be to DIY a multi-channel amp(s) similar to some of the excellent projects folks are building nowadays. I dunno...maybe a gainclone, UcD180, etc. There are some nice designs.
If you want to buy something ready to go I'd consider the ATI-6012 twelve channel amp. Convert/build your three surround speakers to passive and you'll be set. 8 channels plus 3 (with a fourth surround as an option) all from one amplifier. You might find one used or you could get a new one via Siegfried for a good price. Yes, a bit more money than a combination of two or more multi-channel recievers, but it is an excellent and more simple solution.
Another option would be to keep your eyes peeled on Ebay for a couple of used five/six channel amps. Maybe something like a Carver AV405X or similar.
Cheers,
Davey.
I don't think the Kenwood has multichannel inputs. The Panny will work but you'll only be able to use 5 amp channels per receiver (5.1 input) so you'll need 3 of them. As well, some people have complained about the quality of the A/D converters in the Panny and say it only sounds good with a digital input.
A nice looking receiver that Davey pointed out on another forum is the Marantz SR4500. It has 80 watts/channel and a 7.1 input so you can use all the amp channels and you'd only need 2 receivers. That's rare in the low-priced receivers; most only have a 5.1 input. Full retail is US$429 and you should be able to find it a little cheaper. So 2 of the Marantz would be about 1/2 the cost of the ATI and would give you all 14 channels you need.
http://us.marantz.com/shop/_templates/Proddetail.asp?model=7&cat=15
Edit: if you do want to go the ATI route (great amps - most likely better quality than the Marantz) you might consider the Outlaw 7100. It's made by ATI and has 7x100 watts. Two of them would set you back $1800 and give you your 14 channels.
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7100.html
A nice looking receiver that Davey pointed out on another forum is the Marantz SR4500. It has 80 watts/channel and a 7.1 input so you can use all the amp channels and you'd only need 2 receivers. That's rare in the low-priced receivers; most only have a 5.1 input. Full retail is US$429 and you should be able to find it a little cheaper. So 2 of the Marantz would be about 1/2 the cost of the ATI and would give you all 14 channels you need.
http://us.marantz.com/shop/_templates/Proddetail.asp?model=7&cat=15
Edit: if you do want to go the ATI route (great amps - most likely better quality than the Marantz) you might consider the Outlaw 7100. It's made by ATI and has 7x100 watts. Two of them would set you back $1800 and give you your 14 channels.
http://www.outlawaudio.com/products/7100.html
Another option is picking up a couple of used 6 channel Rotel amps, 956 or 976 I think. Or, you could look at the low powered Niles distribution amps... 12 channels of about 30W each. You can find those online from "unauthorized" dealers pretty cheap... authorized is a bit over $1000 IIRC.
The 7.1 receivers mentioned are also good options for the budget minded.
The 7.1 receivers mentioned are also good options for the budget minded.
For a little over $600, you could use 2 of these
http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/HTIB/HTR5760.htm
8ch thru-put, 95w X 7 rms(20-20k), decent low impedance capability, damping factor,etc. As long as you dont drive them close to clipping (which would be VERY loud with the Orions) they will be indistiguishable from any other solid state amplifier.
BTW, my speakers are based on the Orions.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ajinf.../pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ajinfla1966/my_photos
http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/HTIB/HTR5760.htm
8ch thru-put, 95w X 7 rms(20-20k), decent low impedance capability, damping factor,etc. As long as you dont drive them close to clipping (which would be VERY loud with the Orions) they will be indistiguishable from any other solid state amplifier.
BTW, my speakers are based on the Orions.
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ajinf.../pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/ajinfla1966/my_photos
AJinFLA,
Those speakers look fantastic! Congratulations.
What is the material around the seas and the tweeter? Perspex or lexan or something, and how thick is it? And how did you put them together? I'm just about to start my own dipole project and would love to end up with something that looked half as good as yours.
Thanks,
Pete.
Those speakers look fantastic! Congratulations.
What is the material around the seas and the tweeter? Perspex or lexan or something, and how thick is it? And how did you put them together? I'm just about to start my own dipole project and would love to end up with something that looked half as good as yours.
Thanks,
Pete.
"You Are Looking At The Wrong Speakers..."
Wow - what an arrogant thing to say; first of all, this guy is looking for an AMPLIFIER, not speakers. Second, if you want to sell your design, I would highly recommend in the future you choose less caustic words with which to do it, rather than panning competitive designs. You may be a good loudspeaker designer, but you're no salesman, not to mention just being civil.
Wow - what an arrogant thing to say; first of all, this guy is looking for an AMPLIFIER, not speakers. Second, if you want to sell your design, I would highly recommend in the future you choose less caustic words with which to do it, rather than panning competitive designs. You may be a good loudspeaker designer, but you're no salesman, not to mention just being civil.
Re: "You Are Looking At The Wrong Speakers..."
Just a FYI.... John doesn't sell speakers. His design is free and it's state of the art. A gentleman that built the NaO had them at the Iowa DIY event last fall and the sound was stunning just as I'm sure the Orion is. The NaO is just a lot less expensive which is the way I understood John's post. Obviously, you didn't.
If you've read any of SL's posts you'll find that both he and John tend not to "sugar coat" their posts or responses. They just state what they feel is correct and you can take it anyway you want.
HTH
Jim
Just a FYI.... John doesn't sell speakers. His design is free and it's state of the art. A gentleman that built the NaO had them at the Iowa DIY event last fall and the sound was stunning just as I'm sure the Orion is. The NaO is just a lot less expensive which is the way I understood John's post. Obviously, you didn't.
If you've read any of SL's posts you'll find that both he and John tend not to "sugar coat" their posts or responses. They just state what they feel is correct and you can take it anyway you want.
HTH
Jim
sdclc126 said:
As far as I'm concerned, all speakers are "wrong." Not a single speaker, today, does what live does. Some speakers may get close, but after reading a thread on frequency response and it's credibility to good qaulity sound; my ideas on loudspeakers and their design have changed significantly.
I still haven't come up with a theoretical solution, but the assumption is that amplifiers and other source units in the chain are up to the task.
I would definitely recommend something along the lines of a DIY gainclone with multiple channels. This is cheap and easy. I recommend seperating your power supply from the amplifier enclosure because of the large current requirements, etc., one would be bringing a lot of noise into the amplifier stage. A lot DIYers are using LM3886s for amplification duty, check it out, its quite fun actually.
I still haven't come up with a theoretical solution, but the assumption is that amplifiers and other source units in the chain are up to the task.
I would definitely recommend something along the lines of a DIY gainclone with multiple channels. This is cheap and easy. I recommend seperating your power supply from the amplifier enclosure because of the large current requirements, etc., one would be bringing a lot of noise into the amplifier stage. A lot DIYers are using LM3886s for amplification duty, check it out, its quite fun actually.
Jim,
Well, the NaO is not exactly free. There's a cost for the pcb boards which John sells. A person could perform the required EQ/xover with an alternative, but it wouldn't make much sense considering John has already produced a nice pcb design. The NaO is not "a lot less expensive" than the Orion. Yeah, it's a bit less, but they're both on the expensive side when you add up all the driver costs and associated gear. Yes, less amplifier channels are required for the NaO, but amplifier channels are pretty darn cheap nowadays.
John has been taking little snipes at SL and his efforts for quite awhile now so it's not surprising to see another one here. It is rather tiring, but I guess its just John's nature. Unfortunately, SL doesn't participate in online forums anymore so we miss the interesting back/forth that he and John used to have on Madisound. I, for one, learned a lot from both of them.
Jazz,
You've got some excellent suggestions for amplifiers in this thread......I had forgot about the seven-channel receiver option mentioned by Catapult, and I didn't know the Outlaw amp was built by ATI. Good info all around.
Cheers,
Davey.
Well, the NaO is not exactly free. There's a cost for the pcb boards which John sells. A person could perform the required EQ/xover with an alternative, but it wouldn't make much sense considering John has already produced a nice pcb design. The NaO is not "a lot less expensive" than the Orion. Yeah, it's a bit less, but they're both on the expensive side when you add up all the driver costs and associated gear. Yes, less amplifier channels are required for the NaO, but amplifier channels are pretty darn cheap nowadays.
John has been taking little snipes at SL and his efforts for quite awhile now so it's not surprising to see another one here. It is rather tiring, but I guess its just John's nature. Unfortunately, SL doesn't participate in online forums anymore so we miss the interesting back/forth that he and John used to have on Madisound. I, for one, learned a lot from both of them.
Jazz,
You've got some excellent suggestions for amplifiers in this thread......I had forgot about the seven-channel receiver option mentioned by Catapult, and I didn't know the Outlaw amp was built by ATI. Good info all around.
Cheers,
Davey.
"The Wrong Speakers"
His reply was still arrogant. Whether he builds, sells, designs, or none of the above, there are good ways of saying things, and not-so-good ways.
Calling SL's Orion's the "wrong speakers" was irresponsible at best. He may prefer the NaOs to the Orions (I've never heard either, but it's not my point), for performance, price ,etc., but that's exactly the way he should have said it - he PREFERS them, and then go on to explain why.
Saying someone else's product is "wrong" or "inferior" or "bad" does nothing to inform people about the advantages one's own product - it only serves to demonstrate this person's lack of tact and good judgement, and may actually drive people away from the very product he's trying to promote.
I stand by my post.
His reply was still arrogant. Whether he builds, sells, designs, or none of the above, there are good ways of saying things, and not-so-good ways.
Calling SL's Orion's the "wrong speakers" was irresponsible at best. He may prefer the NaOs to the Orions (I've never heard either, but it's not my point), for performance, price ,etc., but that's exactly the way he should have said it - he PREFERS them, and then go on to explain why.
Saying someone else's product is "wrong" or "inferior" or "bad" does nothing to inform people about the advantages one's own product - it only serves to demonstrate this person's lack of tact and good judgement, and may actually drive people away from the very product he's trying to promote.
I stand by my post.
¿GotJazz? said:
I built a pair of Orions; great sound and a fun project.
If you're running the Orions full range for music you might want to consider the recomended 60W amp's fail-safe behavior. A nice side effect of extremely low woofer Q means that a 60W amp will clip before the woofers bottom at all frequencies above 22 Hz without loosing (much) output at higher frequencies.
Using one or more sub-woofers with a fourth order cross-over to handle the last octave reduces this need.
Looking at Siegfried's spl_max1.xls spread sheet and woofer circuit's driver equalization shelving low pass filter would be a fine idea. I think his website also has graphs of maximum SPL against frequency for a Peerless driver in the Orion configuration (15" dipole path difference?) with 60 and 180W amplifiers - add 6dB for the pair of woofers and 6dB for half space operation if you want the actual numbers.
Sorry to interupt the speaker debate, but I wanted to clarify something about Jazz's possible setup with a receiver.
As I understand you're building 2 actively crossed 3 way mains (6 channels of amplification), one actively crossed centre channel (2 channels of amplification) and 3 actively crossed surround speakers. Right? Or maybe your going to passively bi/tri-amp the speakers and then I would say why waste all that money on amps and not see all of the benefits of active crossovers.
The problem with using amplifiers from a surround sound receiver is that they have discrete signals. For example if you use the amplified L output to the midrange in your main left speaker, and the surround L output to the woofer - the speaker is actually receiving different signals. I haven't seen a receiver in a long time that actually can take a signal from another processor, but maybe you can find one. The question is why bother. The amp section in receivers is seriously limited by size constraints.
The only way I can think to do this is to buy seperates: A pre/pro and seperate multichannel amplification. The most economical pre/pros and amps seem to come from Outlaw audio and have developed a good reputation regarding reliability. Rotel seems to have the next step up in price point for prepros. Good, but reasonalby priced amps can be had from Parasound, Adcom, and Anthem.
Good luck!
As I understand you're building 2 actively crossed 3 way mains (6 channels of amplification), one actively crossed centre channel (2 channels of amplification) and 3 actively crossed surround speakers. Right? Or maybe your going to passively bi/tri-amp the speakers and then I would say why waste all that money on amps and not see all of the benefits of active crossovers.
The problem with using amplifiers from a surround sound receiver is that they have discrete signals. For example if you use the amplified L output to the midrange in your main left speaker, and the surround L output to the woofer - the speaker is actually receiving different signals. I haven't seen a receiver in a long time that actually can take a signal from another processor, but maybe you can find one. The question is why bother. The amp section in receivers is seriously limited by size constraints.
The only way I can think to do this is to buy seperates: A pre/pro and seperate multichannel amplification. The most economical pre/pros and amps seem to come from Outlaw audio and have developed a good reputation regarding reliability. Rotel seems to have the next step up in price point for prepros. Good, but reasonalby priced amps can be had from Parasound, Adcom, and Anthem.
Good luck!
I'm planning to build 8 channels of p3a for my pair of Orion, If I hadn't already started to buy parts I would have gone for the AMP1 (www.41hz.com), cheap and small 2*60W (8ohm) Tripath class T amp modules. They come as a kit so they reqire a bit knowledge in soldering and electronics I guess. €54 for a two channel module! hard to beat! You will need a good powersupply, and that cost a lot. but it will still be cheap for a 8 channel amp.
conscious said:
Thanks to recording industry paranoia about digital connections for multi-channel audio most recent receiver and preamp designs have a multi-channel analog pass through which only goes through the volume control and then 5 or 7 amplifier channels.
You can use one as a multi-channel amplifier. More than one set for the same gain get you more channels. Feed your preamp/processor/receiver outputs into your active cross-overs, feed your active cross-overs into the analog bypasses, and you have a relatively inexpensive active system.
Cost.
But not enough to matter. A receiver is unlikely to meet its power rating with all channels driven. It won't be happy driving a low impedance load. These aren't problems.
You need much less voltage swing on an active speaker. If you had signals playing from a pair of drivers at the same amplitude an active speaker's amplifiers would need half the voltage swing and a quarter the power rating of a passive speaker's. While the power distribution of music won't be half and half the effect is still substantial.
Musical power distribution means that some drivers (tweeters) have less output and less power than others so you don't need full power from all chanels at once.
You're running a channel each into the Orion bass drivers so they present a benign load. The woofers are moving towards resonance as you increase dipole equalization, so while voltage swing is needed at low frequencies current and power aren't.
An active speaker lets you vary driver sensitivity with frequency, Orion bass sensitivity is silly when you play music not test tones - you're adding 6dB from two drivers, 6dB for half space radiation and loosing nothing with baffle step. At 80Hz you get 97dB/2.83V/1 meter. You don't need much power there. In the last octave you've got a lot of boost from dipole equalization and more to compensate for the low-Q woofer. You're also excursion limited so running out of voltage is not a problem.
As Drew says, most receivers these days offer a relatively "pure" analog path for multichannel signals. The main advantage with an analog active crossover, like the Orion, is cost.
However, if you're using a digital crossover, one could argue that a good quality receiver offers significant advantages over a power amp. To keep full digital resolution, you should use an analog volume control between the XO and the amp. Receivers provide that very thing, with the bonus of remote control, and they often cost about the same as a custom multichannel volume control. One remote can control several receivers as long as they are the same model. Any channels that need more power than the receiver provides can be hooked up to an external amp fed by the receiver's preamp output so the remote volume control still works. Maybe it's not the highest quality available but it's not bad it's certainly the most elegant solution for a complex active system with digital crossovers.
However, if you're using a digital crossover, one could argue that a good quality receiver offers significant advantages over a power amp. To keep full digital resolution, you should use an analog volume control between the XO and the amp. Receivers provide that very thing, with the bonus of remote control, and they often cost about the same as a custom multichannel volume control. One remote can control several receivers as long as they are the same model. Any channels that need more power than the receiver provides can be hooked up to an external amp fed by the receiver's preamp output so the remote volume control still works. Maybe it's not the highest quality available but it's not bad it's certainly the most elegant solution for a complex active system with digital crossovers.
Why not build the amp that Mr. Linkwitz posts plans for at:
www.linkwitzlab.com/images/graphics/3886amp.gif and
www.linkwitzlab.com/images/graphics/3886pwr.gif
It will cost you ~$300 for 10 channels.
www.linkwitzlab.com/images/graphics/3886amp.gif and
www.linkwitzlab.com/images/graphics/3886pwr.gif
It will cost you ~$300 for 10 channels.
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