My reason being that i have recently found a place that sells the same drivers as a mackie hr824 (vifa drivers) and am considering buying some and making myself some studio monitors..
problem is the drivers are only good from 37 - 4000Hz, so i will need some drivers for the high end.. any suggestions here?
also in studio monitors how much of the flat sound they make is to do with the electronics? or cabinet design?
thanks
problem is the drivers are only good from 37 - 4000Hz, so i will need some drivers for the high end.. any suggestions here?
also in studio monitors how much of the flat sound they make is to do with the electronics? or cabinet design?
thanks
Firstly what do you want it for? This is important. In studio monitoring use, they are used nearfield so there is much room interaction and so a very flat response is more readily retained. For normal hifi, this is of less benefit due to the impact of the room.
A flat response is mainly achieved by the selection of the drivers and the design of the crossover. I have seen a kit with Scan Speak drivers including the Carbon Fibre midbass which is not the most smooth driver, but it was made to a +/- 1.2db response and sounded very accurate. To get this kind of response one tends to do things like use notch filters. Some argue that this is not necessarily the most musical solution, and that such a flat response may not sound better. I tend to agree.
If you paired the Vifa P13 with say the Vifa XT tweeter or Scan Speak 9500 it shouldn't be too hard to get a flat response. You could then add an active woofer, say an 8."
A flat response is mainly achieved by the selection of the drivers and the design of the crossover. I have seen a kit with Scan Speak drivers including the Carbon Fibre midbass which is not the most smooth driver, but it was made to a +/- 1.2db response and sounded very accurate. To get this kind of response one tends to do things like use notch filters. Some argue that this is not necessarily the most musical solution, and that such a flat response may not sound better. I tend to agree.
If you paired the Vifa P13 with say the Vifa XT tweeter or Scan Speak 9500 it shouldn't be too hard to get a flat response. You could then add an active woofer, say an 8."
hey optical
they wouldnt happen to be vifa 8's would they?
jaycar here in AU marketed them as "WOW! drivers used in the HR824!" im not 100% sold on that, but they were originally $100AU then moved to $150AU.
the problem you might consider is finding a tweeter that integrates well, a few designs cross the 8 over as high as physically possible, thus making it sound less than desirable. depending on the budget you could go for the XT or spend into something nice, scan-speak?
the next problem is physical size, mackies have an oval passive radiator in the back that really gives it that fat low end. also within the box they cram two ampliers, 100W?? + 150W?? PLUS active equalisation and 24dB crossovers. unless you are pretty skilled its going to be damn hard replicating it.
going the additional sub option would be much easier. or having bi-amplified, active xo'd racks hiding away.
for something cheaper and ultra flat i recommend Zaphod's take on
the classic D25/17 combo plus a big 12" under the desk
they wouldnt happen to be vifa 8's would they?
jaycar here in AU marketed them as "WOW! drivers used in the HR824!" im not 100% sold on that, but they were originally $100AU then moved to $150AU.
the problem you might consider is finding a tweeter that integrates well, a few designs cross the 8 over as high as physically possible, thus making it sound less than desirable. depending on the budget you could go for the XT or spend into something nice, scan-speak?
the next problem is physical size, mackies have an oval passive radiator in the back that really gives it that fat low end. also within the box they cram two ampliers, 100W?? + 150W?? PLUS active equalisation and 24dB crossovers. unless you are pretty skilled its going to be damn hard replicating it.
going the additional sub option would be much easier. or having bi-amplified, active xo'd racks hiding away.
for something cheaper and ultra flat i recommend Zaphod's take on
the classic D25/17 combo plus a big 12" under the desk
Konnichiwa,
Well, the generic Genlec and Mackie nearfield monitors are pretty prosaic. I would never bother using then for an actual MIX, merley as secondary/tertiary minimum quality monitor. The bigger Genlec are pretty good but I'd probably still prfer a big PMC or ATC or a MEG.
The "flat" sound (as in poorely delineated dynamically, compressed and lacking 3 dimensionality) small nearfiled "minimum quality" monitors make has much to do with the electronics and with the fact that often fairly poor drivers are used. The point to recognise is that they are intended to illustrate the average Mid-Fi Speaker and/or car system. Serious Studio monitors tend to be very different animals.
Sayonara
Optical said:The sort you could say rivals genelec or mackie monitors..
I would be very interested to hear about it
Well, the generic Genlec and Mackie nearfield monitors are pretty prosaic. I would never bother using then for an actual MIX, merley as secondary/tertiary minimum quality monitor. The bigger Genlec are pretty good but I'd probably still prfer a big PMC or ATC or a MEG.
Optical said:
The "flat" sound (as in poorely delineated dynamically, compressed and lacking 3 dimensionality) small nearfiled "minimum quality" monitors make has much to do with the electronics and with the fact that often fairly poor drivers are used. The point to recognise is that they are intended to illustrate the average Mid-Fi Speaker and/or car system. Serious Studio monitors tend to be very different animals.
Sayonara
Hi Optical - I run a project studio for which I built reference monitors using Jordan 92s and stereo subs. Description and photo here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=23208&perpage=10&pagenumber=50
These things beat all near-field monitors I have heard. Another post of mine here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38755&perpage=10&pagenumber=2
describes the system in more detail. Basically I like closed cabs, fullrange drivers and stereo subs, and hate the sound of midrange crossovers. I'm in the minority here but then I'm doing nearfield studio monitoring, not home theater or room auditioned hi-fi. Also, my external AD/DA converter is much better than most CD players...
NNK
These things beat all near-field monitors I have heard. Another post of mine here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=38755&perpage=10&pagenumber=2
describes the system in more detail. Basically I like closed cabs, fullrange drivers and stereo subs, and hate the sound of midrange crossovers. I'm in the minority here but then I'm doing nearfield studio monitoring, not home theater or room auditioned hi-fi. Also, my external AD/DA converter is much better than most CD players...
NNK
I bought a pair of these drivers off of eBay a while back, with the same idea of cloning the Mackie HR824s.
The idea was to use them as monitors due to their advertised flat frequency response. Modeling the drivers in various box configurations I could not get very close to what Mackie advertised, even starting with similar dimensions. I tried ported boxes with and without Passive Radiators. In the models the bass wasn’t there without going quite a bit bigger. I read reports of the HR824s having a “mushy bass.”
I had better luck using Marin King’s MathCad models for Transmission Lines. An ML TL design was able to model better than the Mackie design. I ended up with an f3 ~ 27 Hz. and a very flat & smooth response from 30 Hz up. However, this was at the cost of a much larger box (45 x 9 x 14.5625).
I built this using North Creek Music D25 Tweeters, and am happy with the result.
The idea was to use them as monitors due to their advertised flat frequency response. Modeling the drivers in various box configurations I could not get very close to what Mackie advertised, even starting with similar dimensions.
I tried ported boxes with and without Passive Radiators. In the models the bass wasn’t there without going quite a bit bigger. I read reports of the HR824s having a “mushy bass.” I had better luck using Marin King’s MathCad models for Transmission Lines. An ML TL design was able to model better than the Mackie design. I ended up with an f3 ~ 27 Hz. and a very flat & smooth response from 30 Hz up. However, this was at the cost of a much larger box (45 x 9 x 14.5625).
I built this using North Creek Music D25 Tweeters, and am happy with the result.
Hi guys,
yes it was those jaycar vifa drivers i was looking at, although they seem to have stopped stocking them here now but even so..
yes im interested in building monitors for a home studio with a flat a frequency responce as i can get, i have big PA speakers too so i basically want them for mastering tracks well enough to sound good on any speakers..
the electronics isnt really a problem, i know heaps more about the amplifiers involved than i do about the speakers, until now ive just gone with 'it is loud? -yes, does it sound good? yes' well then i like it..
but for nearfields that philosphy is not really applicable..
with those vifa drivers jaycar had i realised they would need some kind of tweeter to accompany them, but seeing as i probably cant get them any more then im open to any experiance building flat nearfield reference monitors..
thanks for your input!
yes it was those jaycar vifa drivers i was looking at, although they seem to have stopped stocking them here now
but even so..yes im interested in building monitors for a home studio with a flat a frequency responce as i can get, i have big PA speakers too so i basically want them for mastering tracks well enough to sound good on any speakers..
the electronics isnt really a problem, i know heaps more about the amplifiers involved than i do about the speakers, until now ive just gone with 'it is loud? -yes, does it sound good? yes' well then i like it..
but for nearfields that philosphy is not really applicable..
with those vifa drivers jaycar had i realised they would need some kind of tweeter to accompany them, but seeing as i probably cant get them any more then im open to any experiance building flat nearfield reference monitors..
thanks for your input!
Banned
Joined 2002
nonamekid said:
Hello, your setup looks quite good, mine is somewhat similar! (but lacking good nearfields..) Im also running cubase but use an m-audio delta 1010..
i also prefer full range speakers so crossovers/filters can be avoided, but if the end result is good im not too fussed about how i get there..
the jordan 92's are the speakers on top right? do they go with your subs well? bass is particularly important for the music im working with (dnb)
Very nice looking setup you have there, nonamekid.nonamekid said:
I'm curious though - according to the Jordan literature, the drivers feature an intentional high frequency lift on-axis and a flatter off-axis response, the idea being to attain a flatter overall room response. And they go on to recommend listening to them off-axis, preferably with a fairly substantial "crosseyed" toe-in to widen the sweet spot. Have you noticed this and compensated with eq at the computer or elsewhere? Do you do critical listening sitting a bit back from your workstation perhaps? Or do you find the sound favorable just the way they are?
The Mackies are not that mushy but having a rear PR automatically makes reflections and problem. I thought the Genelecs are a bit hollow sounding, but that may have been the mix at the time. Tannoy 800s quite good, but they are not cheap either. I find it interesting that Blue Sky is beginning to make in-roads... these are surprisingly smooth and the transition from sub to sat is hard to find when you are sitting close. I find that the Reveal passives are better than the actives and makes me believe that Tannoy got the amp on that unit all wrong.
Still, these are all better than just about any "consumer" speaker in the same price points.
I don't believe in musical vs flat. Too much circuitry between the mics and my ear already. Any system that makes all stuff sound musical is not delivering me the music as it was heard coming from the violin. I prefer to gauge smoothness vs. edge.
To that end, I agree that PMCs are very very good. I heard a pair once.... can't remember the occasion. Interesting that they are transmission line for their low end. The Brystons on the back are probably a big part of their effectiveness.
I read somewhere that "Nearfield" is a gimmick invented by Tannoy a number of year back. I don't doubt this as throw is always a question of power and the ability to deliver on/off axis. Long throw must make for lesser off-axis performance... a general characteristic of PA cabinets. The monitors designed for closefield (like all the baby monitors) are supposed to be fairly wide dispersion so that horizontal positional changes at the console do not affect the sound as much.
ensen.
Still, these are all better than just about any "consumer" speaker in the same price points.
I don't believe in musical vs flat. Too much circuitry between the mics and my ear already. Any system that makes all stuff sound musical is not delivering me the music as it was heard coming from the violin. I prefer to gauge smoothness vs. edge.
To that end, I agree that PMCs are very very good. I heard a pair once.... can't remember the occasion. Interesting that they are transmission line for their low end. The Brystons on the back are probably a big part of their effectiveness.
I read somewhere that "Nearfield" is a gimmick invented by Tannoy a number of year back. I don't doubt this as throw is always a question of power and the ability to deliver on/off axis. Long throw must make for lesser off-axis performance... a general characteristic of PA cabinets. The monitors designed for closefield (like all the baby monitors) are supposed to be fairly wide dispersion so that horizontal positional changes at the console do not affect the sound as much.
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