Hello.
Im planning to build a micro pa,in a 1 sub 2 sat configuration.
I want to use a smallish 15 sub in as tiny box i can design.
Then i want to build really small tops.
the whole thing will be biamped with active crossover for the sub and passive cross for the sats.
Now in order to keep the sats SMALL i need to find a fairly high crossover point for the sub.Thre will be NO bass in the tops.
In other words I want the xover as high as i possible can...
Do any of you have an idea abou how high i could cross,It depends on driver I know,but Im more concerned about how to retain a somewhat ....natural sound.
This is for a truly mobile mini dj rig by the way.
Any ideas?
Im planning to build a micro pa,in a 1 sub 2 sat configuration.
I want to use a smallish 15 sub in as tiny box i can design.
Then i want to build really small tops.
the whole thing will be biamped with active crossover for the sub and passive cross for the sats.
Now in order to keep the sats SMALL i need to find a fairly high crossover point for the sub.Thre will be NO bass in the tops.
In other words I want the xover as high as i possible can...
Do any of you have an idea abou how high i could cross,It depends on driver I know,but Im more concerned about how to retain a somewhat ....natural sound.
This is for a truly mobile mini dj rig by the way.
Any ideas?
No bass in the tops and running to a high frequency in the sub is not a good idea; integration of the two will be most difficult. A reasonable crossover point from sub to main is around 100 Hz; going higher than that has directional frequencies that should be at ear level coming from a box down on the floor where they won't be properly dispersed. That's why you don't see speakers on the market that do it the way you propose.
As for a very small sub, the smaller you go the less bass you'll get, no matter what the speaker size. Real subwoofer response at pro-sound levels is not going to happen with much less than an 8 cubic foot box.
www.billfitzmaurice.com
As for a very small sub, the smaller you go the less bass you'll get, no matter what the speaker size. Real subwoofer response at pro-sound levels is not going to happen with much less than an 8 cubic foot box.
www.billfitzmaurice.com
how much power ????
this is always a question that needs to be answered. because generally the more power required, the higher the cost !! You need to figure what sort of music you will be using this for , what size venues, etc etc etc
If cost isn't too much of an issue, you could try modelling the Eminence Magnum 15HO. This driver should work well in a smallish box according to my calcs. One of the few drivers that will !! The Kappa 15 (pressed frame) will need about 5+ cuft, an ok size and is a lot cheaper.
As Bill says, to cross from sub to sat , any much higher than 100Hz, and you are starting to get into the human male vocal range !
this is always a question that needs to be answered. because generally the more power required, the higher the cost !! You need to figure what sort of music you will be using this for , what size venues, etc etc etc
If cost isn't too much of an issue, you could try modelling the Eminence Magnum 15HO. This driver should work well in a smallish box according to my calcs. One of the few drivers that will !! The Kappa 15 (pressed frame) will need about 5+ cuft, an ok size and is a lot cheaper.
As Bill says, to cross from sub to sat , any much higher than 100Hz, and you are starting to get into the human male vocal range !
The possibility to cross over at higher frequencies doesn't have to do with the driver (as long as your choice of mid range driver is reasonable), but on the distance between sub and sats.
If they are placed directly next to each other, it could work. If they are distant, it won't. It's got to do with the wave length of the sound waves, radiated by both the sats and the sub at and around the crossover frequency. It is this frequency that has to have a wavelength far greater than the sub-sat distance.
I guess you want to do the standard application, sats left and right of the DJ rig, sub on the floor? That won't work with high crossover points. As already said, a little over 100Hz is the maximum.
This reminds me of the Syrincs S3 system, a very good design with 10" midrange and CD horn driver (both by RCF). That's the order of size, weight and driver choice you should start with for DJ use. A 12" midrange driver would be even better, but a good 10" can sound very good in that regard.
Sebastian.
For a general purpose PA, you really don't need much lower than 60Hz, especially with club-music thump.
You also want the monitors to be highly directional so you won't always have to find a wall against which to place and also so that any mics not in the line of fire will be less likely to feed. And don't say that it will never be used for live sound... there are too many events where the host(ess) will want to make an announcement or give away a prize or even sing karaoke.
You also don't really need much higher than about 18kHz so you can pick your drivers for power handling, which they will need. Plan on needing at least 300WRMS for most situations, especially outdoors. Any less and you probably won't have enough volume to make it feel like a party.
So instead of deep, make it strong and if you use ports, make them front facing. Go for the most efficient to maximize what power you have... horns are really good for this.
Bill is right... just about all commercial systems are x-way monitors rather than 3 piece sub/sat. Study Community, EV and Mackie... they know what they are doing.
ensen.
You also want the monitors to be highly directional so you won't always have to find a wall against which to place and also so that any mics not in the line of fire will be less likely to feed. And don't say that it will never be used for live sound... there are too many events where the host(ess) will want to make an announcement or give away a prize or even sing karaoke.
You also don't really need much higher than about 18kHz so you can pick your drivers for power handling, which they will need. Plan on needing at least 300WRMS for most situations, especially outdoors. Any less and you probably won't have enough volume to make it feel like a party.
So instead of deep, make it strong and if you use ports, make them front facing. Go for the most efficient to maximize what power you have... horns are really good for this.
Bill is right... just about all commercial systems are x-way monitors rather than 3 piece sub/sat. Study Community, EV and Mackie... they know what they are doing.
ensen.Followup and thanks and praise!
FIRST THANKS FOR KEEPING THIS FORUM THE BEST EVER!
Well heres my idea.
In order to get decent bass I need the bass speaker on the floor.
In order to play with some coverage,I need to get the highs above the crowd.
I am also doing this solo,and need to be able to lift and move all this in separate units by myself.
I know that the hurricane would sound awesome.But anyone who have been trying to log two of those around,know that this is not an easy to lift cabinet.Besides the Huricane is x-ed at 400 hz so the top wont separate from the bass,and will therfore not give coverage unless standing on a stage at earlevel.The ideas about 12s and horn is good,as long as you keep the levels low,or dont send bass into them.The active plastic Mackies have cutout every time I have played on them,because of the built in protection wich kicks in when there is too much input (read bass).
The hi-midrange on 15s with horns is usually poor,plus a well built cabinet for a 15 is not something a single person want to rig up in the air by him/herself.Anything up in the air will be lacking in lowbass,as you all know.
Im also not using microphones, extreme directivety is not what I want or need.Even coverage is my preference.
I have a few amps to my availability,so drivers and cabinets will be my only cost at this point.
Heres what i have been thinking of.
Sub- frontfiring eminance Magnum 15 ho for bass 45-120hz mono
Sat-Selenium 12 CO1P in a small sealed or vented cabinet. stereo
Now i really want to make this pakage smallish and lightish.
Thinking of making the tops out of glassfiber reinforsed styrofoam boxes (YES!Beercolers!)
I also have nutty ideas about a lightweight sub box,but this is a whole new thread in itself.
Now i have downloaded various programs and been trying to model boxes, but always feel unsure about the end result...
My aim is loudness and coverage as well as small and light.
High fidelity is not an issue.
Once again thank you all.
H H
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-390
FIRST THANKS FOR KEEPING THIS FORUM THE BEST EVER!
Well heres my idea.
In order to get decent bass I need the bass speaker on the floor.
In order to play with some coverage,I need to get the highs above the crowd.
I am also doing this solo,and need to be able to lift and move all this in separate units by myself.
I know that the hurricane would sound awesome.But anyone who have been trying to log two of those around,know that this is not an easy to lift cabinet.Besides the Huricane is x-ed at 400 hz so the top wont separate from the bass,and will therfore not give coverage unless standing on a stage at earlevel.The ideas about 12s and horn is good,as long as you keep the levels low,or dont send bass into them.The active plastic Mackies have cutout every time I have played on them,because of the built in protection wich kicks in when there is too much input (read bass).
The hi-midrange on 15s with horns is usually poor,plus a well built cabinet for a 15 is not something a single person want to rig up in the air by him/herself.Anything up in the air will be lacking in lowbass,as you all know.
Im also not using microphones, extreme directivety is not what I want or need.Even coverage is my preference.
I have a few amps to my availability,so drivers and cabinets will be my only cost at this point.
Heres what i have been thinking of.
Sub- frontfiring eminance Magnum 15 ho for bass 45-120hz mono
Sat-Selenium 12 CO1P in a small sealed or vented cabinet. stereo
Now i really want to make this pakage smallish and lightish.
Thinking of making the tops out of glassfiber reinforsed styrofoam boxes (YES!Beercolers!)
I also have nutty ideas about a lightweight sub box,but this is a whole new thread in itself.
Now i have downloaded various programs and been trying to model boxes, but always feel unsure about the end result...
My aim is loudness and coverage as well as small and light.
High fidelity is not an issue.
Once again thank you all.
H H
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-390
Reagrding the Hurricane, the mid/tweet unit could be separated from the woofer easily. For small and portable you could go sealed for the maelstrom's section and give up some low end extension and have a very small box for it.
If it was me and the $900 price for a pair was OK, I'd put the maelstrom in a 22" cube for setting up on the ground and put the 10" coax on a very small open baffle (for extra sweet vocals) up in the air above the bass units. With a 400hz cutoff, the baffle for the 10" unit would be mainly to have a way to mount it on site. Maybe even use something like a telescoping microphone stand tube for mounting it above the maelstrom cab.
If that's out of your price range and don't need the low extension of the maelstrom, then a pair of cheaper PA woofers xo'd at 400hz to the same 10" adire HE10.1's on OB's would work great too.
If it was me and the $900 price for a pair was OK, I'd put the maelstrom in a 22" cube for setting up on the ground and put the 10" coax on a very small open baffle (for extra sweet vocals) up in the air above the bass units. With a 400hz cutoff, the baffle for the 10" unit would be mainly to have a way to mount it on site. Maybe even use something like a telescoping microphone stand tube for mounting it above the maelstrom cab.
If that's out of your price range and don't need the low extension of the maelstrom, then a pair of cheaper PA woofers xo'd at 400hz to the same 10" adire HE10.1's on OB's would work great too.
Just for the record Holger, I think you got me wrong on that!
When I suggested a 10" or 12" driver, I was clearly only speaking about the midrange. The Syrincs satellite box I suggested is a two way mid-high system, a set of two of them always gets accompanied by a couple of 15" or 18" woofers, of course.
Sure, this is always neccessary. No DJ would elevate the bass boxes, put the tops on the floor or buy equipment he can't carry.
I fully aggree on that. 12" should be the largest chassis diameter for the mid range. And besides that, we're talking about cost, weight and size, too. (Don't we?
) That's a dream, though. Stick to wood until you know exactly what enclosure will fit your needs for years. The complexity and cost for a well-enough done glassfiber/epoxy enclosure is usually underestimated...The good old plywood is a surprisingly good compromise, after all. It's about box volume, a small box made of plywood will be lightweight enough for the first time, while not costing you more than all the speakers and crossover parts together.
Bill,
In your first link, I hope those "tweeters" aren't piezos! And if so, how do they compare to the "original" Motorolas (as single)?
I think the magnum bass box plus 2 coax in sealed will work OK. Haven't tried the Seleniums, but FWIW the Eminence 12cx is pretty good.
Why not use two bass boxes? This will make things *much* easier WRT crossing over to satellites. IMO it will sound better as well. You can't have too much bass.
The regular kappa 15 sounds very good in a golden ratio (.62:1:1.62) cabinet with a slot vent at the bottom. With the required volume (EBS-ish), it ends up being a ~30" tall tower, which gives the midbass a bit more punch. (without delving further into details... )
AFA minimizing weight, I strongly recommend regular fir plywood - void free. The "shop birch" stuff is usually adequate. Glass/stryofoam sounds good, and I appreciate the techno look myself, but unless you make the glass quite thick, it's going to be super resonant.
Also, sure you don't need anything below 80hz or so, but techno etc sounds much better if you can get extension to 50hz at least.
GB
Why not use two bass boxes? This will make things *much* easier WRT crossing over to satellites. IMO it will sound better as well. You can't have too much bass.
The regular kappa 15 sounds very good in a golden ratio (.62:1:1.62) cabinet with a slot vent at the bottom. With the required volume (EBS-ish), it ends up being a ~30" tall tower, which gives the midbass a bit more punch. (without delving further into details... )
AFA minimizing weight, I strongly recommend regular fir plywood - void free. The "shop birch" stuff is usually adequate. Glass/stryofoam sounds good, and I appreciate the techno look myself, but unless you make the glass quite thick, it's going to be super resonant.
Also, sure you don't need anything below 80hz or so, but techno etc sounds much better if you can get extension to 50hz at least.
GB
Regarding the Eminence Beta 12CX. If you are going to go vented or sealed, the 8" or 10" would result in a significantly smaller box due to the much lower Qts of each. Also, you might as well go with the Adire HE kits which use the CX drivers but you get the whole kit and a better custom tweeter for about the same price as buying them separately. For dipole go with the HE12.1 , sealed the HE10.1 , and the HE8.1 needs vented to get flat down to 80hz. Personally I'd go with 2 subs in stereo and that will give you the option of crossing higher.
IMO, you do NEED below 80hz. My HE8.1's are flat down to 80 and really need sub support for full sound.
IMO, you do NEED below 80hz. My HE8.1's are flat down to 80 and really need sub support for full sound.
When I hear the low notes, much of the attack of bass and drum is a lot higher than sub range... maybe 100Hz or so. I think low end extension is only required for the decay and sustain portions. I will grant that the sound will be fuller with extra low end, but I don't think it's necessary for generating the initial thump which is what most club goers notice anyway. There are very few (like me and others on this board) that will ever notice the quality of the sound.
ensen.
PS: I wrote 60Hz, not 80.
ensen.PS: I wrote 60Hz, not 80.
Purple,
Sorry, I picked up the 80 from Greg's post. I agree totally that alot of "attack" is above 100hz or so, but for club type music I think that the 50-100hz range is what gives you the physical impact which is crutial.
You're also right in that most people don't notice just how bad the boom boom boom often is, but maybe we can help change that by guiding people to build good sounding rigs. You can DIY good sound cheaper than you can buy something off the shelf that only booms.
Sorry, I picked up the 80 from Greg's post. I agree totally that alot of "attack" is above 100hz or so, but for club type music I think that the 50-100hz range is what gives you the physical impact which is crutial.
You're also right in that most people don't notice just how bad the boom boom boom often is, but maybe we can help change that by guiding people to build good sounding rigs. You can DIY good sound cheaper than you can buy something off the shelf that only booms.
I am the first to say that holger's system should be as good as possible. Sorry to imply the opposite. Rather, I meant that with a system that is meant to be small and portable, certain compromises must be made and one of the easiest ways to lower bulk is to give up low end extension, especially since most audiences won't notice.
Unlike others, I don't think that low end creates "thump" but rather, excursion which requires big peaks from the amps. IOW, if you have only 500W available from all amps, at least 300W for the sub while the sats/mains/mons should get maybe 100W each, especially since they are already flown above ear level.
ensen.
Unlike others, I don't think that low end creates "thump" but rather, excursion which requires big peaks from the amps. IOW, if you have only 500W available from all amps, at least 300W for the sub while the sats/mains/mons should get maybe 100W each, especially since they are already flown above ear level.
ensen.why Im looking at selenium
I think the seleniums would be better at handeling loudness,and they are a bit cheaper then the adire he kits.
But the smallest selenium is 12" while the adire also have 10"s and 8"s on the menu.The saved money could be put on a better subdriver.
Heres what i have:2 pa amps at 2x150 and 2x200(bridgeable) and a active xover.And on top of that about 900 bucks and great woodworking skills.
I also have a stationwagon and a bad back.Thanks you all.
I think the seleniums would be better at handeling loudness,and they are a bit cheaper then the adire he kits.
But the smallest selenium is 12" while the adire also have 10"s and 8"s on the menu.The saved money could be put on a better subdriver.
Heres what i have:2 pa amps at 2x150 and 2x200(bridgeable) and a active xover.And on top of that about 900 bucks and great woodworking skills.
I also have a stationwagon and a bad back.Thanks you all.
Those selenium coax's look pretty good, but I don't know what they sound like and they don't show up on LSDG's list of recommended drivers at http://ldsg.snippets.org/sect-8.php3 . Plus the kit comes with everything but the wood, so the $20 or so saved for a pair of drivers over the Adire kit may not be a real savings. They look to be about the same in terms of power handling and efficiency.
A pair of Hurricanes with the maelstrom woofers in separate small sealed cabs is in your price range and should work great. It could also give you the option of going open baffle on the tops.
The selenium 12" coax requires double the cab volume of the 10" eminence beta10cx due to the much higher Qts, so that'sw something to consider.
To me the question is how much bottom end extension do you need. What kind of music is this for? If you don't need something that goes as low as the maelstrom, then there's plenty of cheaper PA woofers that could fit the bill with either of the 2 options above as your tops. I think it would be best with 2 woofers, then you can XO higher to the tops and they won't get strained to play at high levels, but the selenium coax 12" or eminence beta10cx will get you down to 80-100hz in a sealed alignment making a single sub possible.
The selenium 12" coax requires double the cab volume of the 10" eminence beta10cx due to the much higher Qts, so that'sw something to consider.
To me the question is how much bottom end extension do you need. What kind of music is this for? If you don't need something that goes as low as the maelstrom, then there's plenty of cheaper PA woofers that could fit the bill with either of the 2 options above as your tops. I think it would be best with 2 woofers, then you can XO higher to the tops and they won't get strained to play at high levels, but the selenium coax 12" or eminence beta10cx will get you down to 80-100hz in a sealed alignment making a single sub possible.
Maelstroms wouldn't work that great IMO. Trust me on this... I'm semi experienced at live sound, etc. There's a huge hit in efficiency when you go to a home stereo type subwoofer, and that sort of low end extension just isn't needed. Also, it's nice to have woofers that can play pretty well up into the mids. With a higher crossover, power handling is improved. No way would I run an 8 or 10" down to 80cps, except for a coffeehouse gig.
Eminence is hard to beat for bang for the buck. A pair of Kappa15LF would do fine, or maybe Magnums if the buckage is there.
YMMV etc....
GB
I'm semi experienced at live sound, etc. There's a huge hit in efficiency when you go to a home stereo type subwoofer, and that sort of low end extension just isn't needed. Also, it's nice to have woofers that can play pretty well up into the mids. With a higher crossover, power handling is improved. No way would I run an 8 or 10" down to 80cps, except for a coffeehouse gig. Eminence is hard to beat for bang for the buck. A pair of Kappa15LF would do fine, or maybe Magnums if the buckage is there.
YMMV etc....
GB
If you want the a portable and lightweight bass cabinet then one approach is:
* curved walls so they can be thinner
* plenty of VD in the driver
* no more bass extension than you need
Putting these together you end up with a sonosub with a 12" or 15" subdriver loaded in a 6th oder bandpass box to turn the low bass you don't need into increased efficiency. You can choose the low end extension you want with the box design, and it will be very light considering its size. Attach a handle where the driver is mounted inside the sonotube and you might even be able to carry one bass module in each hand. Attach a wider base on the bottom end for stability and you can place your satelites on top. You might attach this to a removeable base to get stability.
There is an interesting and innovative company in Australia (Whise) that have created a 100db/octave active crossover developed with the help of Neville Thiele (of TS parameters). You could cross to your sats with this crossover which will mean just about any speakers shouldn't have a problem with overexcursion.
Whise
* curved walls so they can be thinner
* plenty of VD in the driver
* no more bass extension than you need
Putting these together you end up with a sonosub with a 12" or 15" subdriver loaded in a 6th oder bandpass box to turn the low bass you don't need into increased efficiency. You can choose the low end extension you want with the box design, and it will be very light considering its size. Attach a handle where the driver is mounted inside the sonotube and you might even be able to carry one bass module in each hand. Attach a wider base on the bottom end for stability and you can place your satelites on top. You might attach this to a removeable base to get stability.
There is an interesting and innovative company in Australia (Whise) that have created a 100db/octave active crossover developed with the help of Neville Thiele (of TS parameters). You could cross to your sats with this crossover which will mean just about any speakers shouldn't have a problem with overexcursion.
Whise
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