While I was checking out the phl 3411, a question arose to my mind when I was looking at the Beyma SM-110/N in WinISD. Here is what I saw:
The maximum power is profoundly limited between 45 to 125 Hertz. I want to know the implications for home audio use, where the Beyma could still be performing well (the recent price increase by FaitalPro makes them costy phl is generally expansive ).
1) What is limiting maximum power in the Beyma? Is it the motor?
2) Will it up to the maximum of ~ 57 Watts still perform evenly across the frequency range and only then get limited?
The maximum power is profoundly limited between 45 to 125 Hertz. I want to know the implications for home audio use, where the Beyma could still be performing well (the recent price increase by FaitalPro makes them costy phl is generally expansive ).
1) What is limiting maximum power in the Beyma? Is it the motor?
2) Will it up to the maximum of ~ 57 Watts still perform evenly across the frequency range and only then get limited?
1: WinISD is modelling that maximum based on Xmax, or Excursion. There are a few ways of defining it however, so knowing which one you're using would be helpful. Beyma's own nominal figure of 6mm is based on one of the more extended definitions; in pure Hi Fi terms a more conservative definition would be common which would yield 4mm only.
2: Based on the above, there is definitely the chance that there would be some increase in distortion and or change in frequency response prior to the limit shown by WinISD, if you were using Beyma's 6mm excursion figure for your model.
3: I know you didn't ask a third question, but Beyma seem to be discontinuing the SM series, so unless you know of a vendor who still has stock (and might hold some units for you), it might be wise to prioritise other options.
HTH,
David.
2: Based on the above, there is definitely the chance that there would be some increase in distortion and or change in frequency response prior to the limit shown by WinISD, if you were using Beyma's 6mm excursion figure for your model.
3: I know you didn't ask a third question, but Beyma seem to be discontinuing the SM series, so unless you know of a vendor who still has stock (and might hold some units for you), it might be wise to prioritise other options.
HTH,
David.
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Thank you David for your quick response.
I have been using Xmax of 4 mm and this is also the reason I would possibly prioritize i.e. the Faital 10PR320, which needs more equalization in the bass area on the other hand. But the price increase with Faital is hefty. At the beginning of this year, it was 140 Euros, now they sell it for round about 220, due to increasing resource prices and supply chain congestion.
In WinISD, the Maxpower limitation seems to be connected to box volume. Also, the blue line is the Faital which features similar xmax as the phl does, still shows this restriction in a milder form. Could be something else. Anyway, up to 57 Watts I am fine?
Best
Marinus
I have been using Xmax of 4 mm and this is also the reason I would possibly prioritize i.e. the Faital 10PR320, which needs more equalization in the bass area on the other hand. But the price increase with Faital is hefty. At the beginning of this year, it was 140 Euros, now they sell it for round about 220, due to increasing resource prices and supply chain congestion.
In WinISD, the Maxpower limitation seems to be connected to box volume. Also, the blue line is the Faital which features similar xmax as the phl does, still shows this restriction in a milder form. Could be something else. Anyway, up to 57 Watts I am fine?
Best
Marinus
I know that my goal of a 30 liter box with extension brings some issues, this is why I have been double checking with other speakers that are DSP-powered like the JBL 708 or recently, the Genelec S360A. The latter uses the phl 3411, maybe modiefied a bit, but I don't think so. To have a lead how much performance professional engineers force out of a competent driver, I estimated the internal volume of the Genelec at about 40 liters. Because of the relatively high Mms of the phl 3411 driver, they do not need very strong amplification at the very low end with 40 liters, possibly +2 dB with Q=2 at 42 Hz. This does change only a little bit when the enclosure volume is reduced to 30 liters. So I am confident to say that it should be legitimate to to this, especially, as I am not going to run the speaker at thunderous studio levels.
Equalization needed for this response:
PHL 3411
1) fc=42 Hz, Q=2, +3,4 dB
2) fc=70, Q=1,3, +4,5 dB
3)fc=140, Q=1, +2 dB
Faital 10PR320
1) fc=42 Hz, Q=2, +5,7 dB
2) fc=70, Q=1,3, +2,45 dB
3) fc=130, Q=1, +1 dB
Beyma SM-110N
1) fc=42 Hz, Q=2, +6 dB
2) fc=55, Q=2, +1 dB
The Beyma is limited by excursion. Without a HP (and therefore increased GD), it reaches xmax at 3 Watts already. Which is still translates into 89 dB at my LP, 2.7 meters away. Adding a HP at 20 Hz 2nd order increases output by 3 dB to 92 dB and 6 watts of maximum power. Group delay rises a lot:
But I have not listened at 89 dB at my LP ever, so I should be fine, shouldn't I?
Equalization needed for this response:
PHL 3411
1) fc=42 Hz, Q=2, +3,4 dB
2) fc=70, Q=1,3, +4,5 dB
3)fc=140, Q=1, +2 dB
Faital 10PR320
1) fc=42 Hz, Q=2, +5,7 dB
2) fc=70, Q=1,3, +2,45 dB
3) fc=130, Q=1, +1 dB
Beyma SM-110N
1) fc=42 Hz, Q=2, +6 dB
2) fc=55, Q=2, +1 dB
The Beyma is limited by excursion. Without a HP (and therefore increased GD), it reaches xmax at 3 Watts already. Which is still translates into 89 dB at my LP, 2.7 meters away. Adding a HP at 20 Hz 2nd order increases output by 3 dB to 92 dB and 6 watts of maximum power. Group delay rises a lot:
But I have not listened at 89 dB at my LP ever, so I should be fine, shouldn't I?
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Hmm, I'm getting slightly higher SPL before reaching Xmax, albeit I don't know your exact box size & tuning - I used 30l & 40Hz FWIW.
If you're sure your average listening level is low, say 70dB or so, then a modelled max of 90 gives 20dB headroom, which should be decent, yes.
If you haven't already played with WinISD, you'll find that there are really only 3 things you can do to reduce excursion:
1: Turn it down. Obvious, and has obvious consequences on final performance.
2: Make the box smaller - again, introduces obvious performance constraints.
3: Tune it higher.
If you're sure your average listening level is low, say 70dB or so, then a modelled max of 90 gives 20dB headroom, which should be decent, yes.
If you haven't already played with WinISD, you'll find that there are really only 3 things you can do to reduce excursion:
1: Turn it down. Obvious, and has obvious consequences on final performance.
2: Make the box smaller - again, introduces obvious performance constraints.
3: Tune it higher.
Maybe my calibration is not correct, but according to my measurement mic, I barely listen at much more than 70 dB. But this is kind of loud to me.
There is also the Beyma 10G40, which I only considered today for the first time. Before I found out that Genelec was using the high Mms phl 3411, I was always avoiding this weight class. But I did not hear complaints about weak mid range reproduction of this speaker, so the 52g Mms of the 10G40 could be acceptable.
It has 7 mm xmax, based on this:
There is also the Beyma 10G40, which I only considered today for the first time. Before I found out that Genelec was using the high Mms phl 3411, I was always avoiding this weight class. But I did not hear complaints about weak mid range reproduction of this speaker, so the 52g Mms of the 10G40 could be acceptable.
It has 7 mm xmax, based on this:
The retail price is high but if you were to go to TLHP and log in to see the actual price, there it is still the same as it used to be, I don't know if that will continue though.
I'd like to read opinions on this comparison. Four 10-inch drivers, each equalized for a F6 of 36 Hz in a 30 liter vented box, fb = 40 Hz.
1) phl audio 3411 (193 €/pc), this driver is most possibly used in Genelec's S360A and I was could assure myself that the Pros do this sort of frequency bending too. It does need little support in sub bass but plenty in bass. It's group delay also peaks highest, but interestingly, this driver can be pushed forever, with ever more power, without hitting it's excursion limits.
2) FaitalPro 10PR320 (180 €/pc), this driver features the lowest Mms, which some people hold responsible for good mid range reproduction, hence needs a lot more assist at the very low end. It's motor is medium strong and Xmax approaches 8 mm.
3) Beyma 10G40 (107 €/pc), this speaker follows the Phl audio 3411 in Mms, with 52g, whilst 3411 is a stunning 58g. It does need little equalization in the bass, compared to both the Faital and the phl, but a good amount of support in sub bass, just as the Faital does.
4) SB acoustics WO24P (173 €/pc), this speaker has a relatively small Sd compared to the other 10-inch drivers, as it is somewhere in between 8 and 10 inch with only 255 cm². It is tuned very low and hence for a flat response, must actually be damped to avoid a peak. On the other hand, maybe this peak could just compensate baffle step, but I am not sure about that. It is obviously a hifi driver, compared to the other pro monsters, which is visible in its max power capabilities. But it has generous xmax.
Black = phl, blue = faital, red = beyma, green = sbacoustics. In this order, the equalization filters are shown and can be judged.
Max power:
phl is basically unlimited.
Excursion:
Sb acoustics is hitting max excursion at 20 Hz, HP could be necessary for higher volumes.
Group Delay:
Though phl is peaking highest, it is very controlled below fb. Faital and Beyma do equally well, not reaching the pedigree of of phl, while sb acoustic looses it at the very low end.
Transfer function:
sb acoustic rolles of slowest, an would actually peak if not controlled by EQ. This could be used to compensate for baffle step.
SPL:
All pro drivers reside around 95 dB SPL at 2.7m (my current LP), sb acoustics only reaches about 88 db:
I need some opinions before I invest. Obviously, Genelec chose the phl 3411 for a reason, it can be pushed enormously and it is good at the low end, but needs quite some support higher up (small Q, hig). The Faital draws the highest amount of energy for the equalization, though:
Amplifier apparent load per WinISD, still should not be a problem for the bridge-tied load 250 Watts of a Hypex FA123 amplifier.
1) phl audio 3411 (193 €/pc), this driver is most possibly used in Genelec's S360A and I was could assure myself that the Pros do this sort of frequency bending too. It does need little support in sub bass but plenty in bass. It's group delay also peaks highest, but interestingly, this driver can be pushed forever, with ever more power, without hitting it's excursion limits.
2) FaitalPro 10PR320 (180 €/pc), this driver features the lowest Mms, which some people hold responsible for good mid range reproduction, hence needs a lot more assist at the very low end. It's motor is medium strong and Xmax approaches 8 mm.
3) Beyma 10G40 (107 €/pc), this speaker follows the Phl audio 3411 in Mms, with 52g, whilst 3411 is a stunning 58g. It does need little equalization in the bass, compared to both the Faital and the phl, but a good amount of support in sub bass, just as the Faital does.
4) SB acoustics WO24P (173 €/pc), this speaker has a relatively small Sd compared to the other 10-inch drivers, as it is somewhere in between 8 and 10 inch with only 255 cm². It is tuned very low and hence for a flat response, must actually be damped to avoid a peak. On the other hand, maybe this peak could just compensate baffle step, but I am not sure about that. It is obviously a hifi driver, compared to the other pro monsters, which is visible in its max power capabilities. But it has generous xmax.
Black = phl, blue = faital, red = beyma, green = sbacoustics. In this order, the equalization filters are shown and can be judged.
Max power:
phl is basically unlimited.
Excursion:
Sb acoustics is hitting max excursion at 20 Hz, HP could be necessary for higher volumes.
Group Delay:
Though phl is peaking highest, it is very controlled below fb. Faital and Beyma do equally well, not reaching the pedigree of of phl, while sb acoustic looses it at the very low end.
Transfer function:
sb acoustic rolles of slowest, an would actually peak if not controlled by EQ. This could be used to compensate for baffle step.
SPL:
All pro drivers reside around 95 dB SPL at 2.7m (my current LP), sb acoustics only reaches about 88 db:
I need some opinions before I invest. Obviously, Genelec chose the phl 3411 for a reason, it can be pushed enormously and it is good at the low end, but needs quite some support higher up (small Q, hig). The Faital draws the highest amount of energy for the equalization, though:
Amplifier apparent load per WinISD, still should not be a problem for the bridge-tied load 250 Watts of a Hypex FA123 amplifier.
The inductance of the driver clues in to what it can really do
for detail in the midrange.
Otherwise they will start adding copper rings to improve highend.
Critically listening monitors wont use live sound drivers.
And I would assume a actual .707 alignment would be much larger
than 30 liters.
Be more interested in matching the enclosure to the driver.
not forcing it into a known design.
If the manufacture publish the frequency response.
you can at least somewhat see by larger or smaller spikes in the upper response.
Do determine if the " highend" has actual detail, or its just emphasized
with cone breakup.
Be better to look at the actual QB3 or SC4 alignments and see what these
drivers actually want for airspace.
Home use they wont see more than 3 to 15 watts.
for detail in the midrange.
Otherwise they will start adding copper rings to improve highend.
Critically listening monitors wont use live sound drivers.
And I would assume a actual .707 alignment would be much larger
than 30 liters.
Be more interested in matching the enclosure to the driver.
not forcing it into a known design.
If the manufacture publish the frequency response.
you can at least somewhat see by larger or smaller spikes in the upper response.
Do determine if the " highend" has actual detail, or its just emphasized
with cone breakup.
Be better to look at the actual QB3 or SC4 alignments and see what these
drivers actually want for airspace.
Home use they wont see more than 3 to 15 watts.
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With all due respect, this is the least helpful comment.
I am living in an active world and after gauging what the Pros did to their driver/enclosure combis, I am more confident than ever this is going to work out all fine. Le or box alignments do not matter, the response will be equalized anyway. Please do not congest the thread with analogue premises.
I invested a lot of time to narrow down drivers, I need comparative remarks for these four drivers with equalization as per WinISD and the given use case, which is active 30 liter box.
I am living in an active world and after gauging what the Pros did to their driver/enclosure combis, I am more confident than ever this is going to work out all fine. Le or box alignments do not matter, the response will be equalized anyway. Please do not congest the thread with analogue premises.
I invested a lot of time to narrow down drivers, I need comparative remarks for these four drivers with equalization as per WinISD and the given use case, which is active 30 liter box.
hello, you might also consider the Dayton rs270-8 in closed box.
Dayton Audio - RS270-8 10" Reference Woofer 8 Ohm
Dayton Audio - RS270-8 10" Reference Woofer 8 Ohm
They might be more relevant to passive crossovers but don't discount them completely as the less you have to 'fix' things with active circuitry or DSP the better the overall system design will be.
If a driver wants a much bigger box than the one you want to put in will mean that the EQ will be more substantial and that means more excursion or power or both.
Jag768's project is very similar to your goals and he went through three drivers before ending up at the RS270.
Cardioid project: DIY waveguide and passive cardioid midbass | AVS Forum
Do you want to go low or loud. The hifi woofers will easily go lower, the pro drivers louder.
Two 18sound drivers with well behaved responses and decent impedance responses to consider. 10W500 and 10NW750. Prices aren't outrageous at least when I log in
I did, Charles!
Regards
Marinus
P.S.: Also, fluid, still lovin your login and I overstated my point to make clear this is of minor concern. Sure it does matter to some degree but is far less relevant than many other considerations when there is a DSP involved. I considered the Dayton driver once and then discarded it, maybe I will have a second look. Still, I’d be interested in opinions on the 4 drivers presented above, 30 liters vented at 40 Hz and equalized as per screenshots. Best, M.
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