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Combining compression drivers in one horn?
Combining compression drivers in one horn?
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Old 27th August 2021, 01:06 PM   #11
unaHm is offline unaHm  United States
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Sorry to hold out on you Art, that wasn't the intent

So with those, if I were to inject some cone drivers into the <insert horn style here>, apart from the crossover and delay compensation, is that pretty much it?

I could see one mounting one or two woofers on the bottom of a Smith horn, using the sealed box also as a stand (I suppose I could try that with the Eminence Alpha 8as I have).

The only concern I have about those compression drivers is that their specs are from 300Hz-12kHz. I'm not sure if that would require another driver to extend up to 20kHz, or whether the horn would provide enough gain to recoup the drop off in response. In my head they didn't quite go low enough, and didn't quite go high enough

They have a nice smooth sound to them too. I was also listening to the DU-100s outside of horns yesterday to give them a little break in, and they were quite pleasant to listen to (although harsh to begin with, without EQ) in combination with the Pyle PDS521s.
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Old 27th August 2021, 09:38 PM   #12
GM is offline GM  United States
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Originally Posted by unaHm View Post
it must have been massive! How complicated a build was it?

The only sane thought.........Synergy fashion.
Quite simple actually, but wouldn't meet the rigorous technical design excellence demanded by today's more avid DIYers.

Right, when Tom hinted a bit about his new [Unity] patent in '98-'99?, my 'one missing piece of the puzzle' WRT to wide BW speaker design was complete.

Anyway, from dim memory and doing a quick sketch to confirm actual inside depth [i.d.]; ~56" W x ~32.5" H x ~28" D, ~500 Hz conical horn to match the dual 15" FLH's terminus/mouth area and loaded with dual 1" CD with the throat divided in two for ~1 kHz conical.

That said, in retrospect it was technically a parabolic flare since one pair of walls [top/bottom] was parallel, though in my defense didn't know this in the early '70s and doesn't make much difference anyway in the scheme of things, just minor frequency response deviations that with no inexpensive way to measure back then, am confident the terminus, throat damping plus CD horn EQ smoothed it right out.
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Old 27th August 2021, 10:14 PM   #13
GM is offline GM  United States
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Originally Posted by unaHm View Post
Would it be feasible to stack Smith horns for both drivers?
Absolutely! My WG could be said as being inspired by it, though was actually based on a conical/parabolic Lansing/Altec 210/211 mid bass horn variant.
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Old 27th August 2021, 11:43 PM   #14
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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Combining compression drivers in one horn?
Quote:
Originally Posted by unaHm View Post
they were quite pleasant to listen to (although harsh to begin with, without EQ)
Yes you get that, so I wouldn't hold that itself against them.

The fact that they struggle at 12k makes me wonder about the phase plug. Even if you EQ, will you be dealing with inconsistent polars and HOMs.
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Old 28th August 2021, 12:29 AM   #15
weltersys is offline weltersys  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unaHm View Post

So with those, if I were to inject some cone drivers into the <insert horn style here>, apart from the crossover and delay compensation, is that pretty much it?

I could see one mounting one or two woofers on the bottom of a Smith horn, using the sealed box also as a stand (I suppose I could try that with the Eminence Alpha 8as I have).
"Horn gain" won't fix driver deficiencies.

The JA-6681B would go plenty high, the Pyle PDS521 "maybe", the DU-100 not likely, as it probably rolls off with an acoustic band-pass to allow more excursion without the diaphragm hammering the phase plug. You won't want to cross any of them lower than about 800 Hz on a DSH.

The Alpha 8" could be mounted top and bottom on the DSH using multiple entry ports (one per cell), and reach to around 1kHz before the acoustic band-pass cut off. Most all the cone driver horn gain from the DSH will be in the 400-900Hz range, and be peaky, not of much use in a domestic environment.
The injection ports will also have negative impact on HF response in such small exponential horn paths as the DSH has.
Using a DSH for high frequency, you would probably be better served using the Alpha 8 in a standard box. Forget the DU-100, the Alpha 8 will sound better than a compression driver on a DSH (or any horn I can think of) from 100-800Hz.

If you do want to make a MEH (multiple entry horn) you should decide the dispersion you want, then take it from there.

Art
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Old 28th August 2021, 02:12 AM   #16
unaHm is offline unaHm  United States
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Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
"Horn gain" won't fix driver deficiencies.

The JA-6681B would go plenty high, the Pyle PDS521 "maybe", the DU-100 not likely, as it probably rolls off with an acoustic band-pass to allow more excursion without the diaphragm hammering the phase plug. You won't want to cross any of them lower than about 800 Hz on a DSH.

The Alpha 8" could be mounted top and bottom on the DSH using multiple entry ports (one per cell), and reach to around 1kHz before the acoustic band-pass cut off. Most all the cone driver horn gain from the DSH will be in the 400-900Hz range, and be peaky, not of much use in a domestic environment.
The injection ports will also have negative impact on HF response in such small exponential horn paths as the DSH has.
Using a DSH for high frequency, you would probably be better served using the Alpha 8 in a standard box. Forget the DU-100, the Alpha 8 will sound better than a compression driver on a DSH (or any horn I can think of) from 100-800Hz.

If you do want to make a MEH (multiple entry horn) you should decide the dispersion you want, then take it from there.

Art
Hmm. So the scenario I'm thinking of is this:
* Indoor application
* A design mostly for a single listener, so toe-ing in the speakers to converge on a sweet spot is allowed
* Wide dispersion not entirely necessary. Maybe 60x60, 60x40?
* Distance from speaker to listener = 6-8 feet

Thanks for the explanation of why it would be ill-advised to horn-load the cone driver into the DSH. We definitely don't want peaky!

The funny thing is that I used the PDS521 with a narrow 1kHz horn some years ago, and the Alphas in a box (as prescribed by Eminence) below them. They sounded very good, but I felt like I was missing out on a lot of cool experiences with horns

Those DU-100s we can't expect them to do any form of high frequency (if we had an application for them). Their frequency response is only up to 6kHz, so they're definitely built for a specific purpose (which may or may not work to our benefit).
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Old 28th August 2021, 08:59 PM   #17
weltersys is offline weltersys  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unaHm View Post
* A design mostly for a single listener, so toe-ing in the speakers to converge on a sweet spot is allowed
* Wide dispersion not entirely necessary. Maybe 60x60, 60x40?
* Distance from speaker to listener = 6-8 feet

Thanks for the explanation of why it would be ill-advised to horn-load the cone driver into the DSH. We definitely don't want peaky!

The funny thing is that I used the PDS521 with a narrow 1kHz horn some years ago, and the Alphas in a box (as prescribed by Eminence) below them. They sounded very good, but I felt like I was missing out on a lot of cool experiences with horns
A "narrow 1kHz horn" does not give enough information for me relate to your "experience", or what you are missing. Response to 1kHz and pattern control to 1kHz are two different considerations.

As a guess, the Pyle PDS521 is probably as peaky as the Eminence PSD2002. If you did not EQ out the peaks, your horn experience would not be very "cool"

As an example, see the response of a Eminence PSD2002 (16ohm) compared to a BMS 4550 (16ohm) on the same 13x13 degree Maltese conical horn.
Below 1KHz, the response "ripple" from the long horn is evident, but response varies by 9dB at 300 Hz.
Above 1000Hz, 6dB variations at 2kHz, 7kHz, 11kHz, then the PSD2002 takes a bow, while the BMS 4550 continues to "zing" up at 18kHz.
Without EQ, listening to those two drivers would be quite "different experiences"

The PSD2002 went through a diaphragm redesign over 20 years ago.
On a "90x40" horn (of bastard design..), the two are compared.
"Em1" is the older, but smoother "Series 1" diaphragm, which could be equalized with one filter, while the newer, "brighter, extended response" version would need about 7 parametric filters to tame it's response.

Since you plan to use DSP, are going three way, have the Alpha 8s in boxes, (and a bunch of poly cone "subs"?) just tune up what you have, then tell us what the experience is missing.

Art
Attached Images
File Type: png PSD2002, BMS 4550.png (139.2 KB, 98 views)
File Type: png PSD 2002 series1 &2.png (103.6 KB, 98 views)
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Old 28th August 2021, 09:20 PM   #18
unaHm is offline unaHm  United States
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Quote:
Since you plan to use DSP, are going three way, have the Alpha 8s in boxes, (and a bunch of poly cone "subs"?) just tune up what you have, then tell us what the experience is missing.
Right now, the only experience I have is a pair of Sennheiser headphones We moved house a couple of times, so I suppose I have a clean slate!

Apart from the Yamaha drivers, maybe I should cut my losses and build a pair of CoSynes, or SyntripPs, both designed by some wizards I've heard about here and there

Last edited by unaHm; 28th August 2021 at 09:28 PM.
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Old 29th August 2021, 12:59 AM   #19
unaHm is offline unaHm  United States
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I think we can end this thread - given that I have the Yamaha compression drivers, and I can cross between them and the subs with the Alpha 8a speakers, I'll look up some designs that people have already done here to get ideas and go from there. Art, thanks for your help and being the voice of reason If I come up with something, I'll post a build thread of that specific project.
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Old 17th September 2021, 02:15 AM   #20
unaHm is offline unaHm  United States
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While I wait for the opportunity to go and get some plywood for the 'real deal', I went out on a whim and had a go at putting together a non-serious design using the Pyle, the Miyako and the Eminence drivers as a 3-way.

I focused on the compression drivers, attaching them to a 500Hz horn. See the attached picture.

Here's a list of things I noticed once I'd got the DSP together:
  • The Pyle driver was definitely more sensitive than the Miyako, which wasn't much of a surprise
  • The Miyako had a wider range than expected, though I found it performed best between 250Hz and 2kHz (it appeared to roll off aggressively after 3kHz in this configuration)
  • I had to turn the Miyako down a little
  • After listening to the Yamaha compression drivers, the Pyles were definitely 'brittle' in their sound by comparison
  • Regardless of whether I used the Eminence or one of the Polycone woofers, it was pretty easy to get a Bass driver to work with them, even without an enclosure for it
  • I 'bifurcated' the Miyako's output by creating a channel leading from the centre of the panel to the sides which opened to half of the exit cross-sectional area on either side (hopefully it can be seen on the bottom panel of the horn). No science (just inspired by the paraline thread, though what I did bears little resemblance)...I just wanted to see what it sounded like. It worked better than I expected, but I wasn't expecting much!

I might build a second one to see how they work in a stereo configuration, as I remember the foam core 2-way horns I made ages ago benefited from being a pair. It was fun to experiment and play around in the physical realm
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