I love the Ardent, until I realized it's more than $5000 after finish. And an 82db efficiency is nothing I can live with.
Sure, understand. In this pricr range you can consider also used branded speakers. A lot of great choices you will surely have. And you are purchasing what you hear and not putting your hard earnwd money into a sonic quesyion mark.
Ah I see most DIY kits are pretty standard square boxes... Heissmann and Troels seem to do some slant/roundover stuff at least. Heissmann kits seem to have less marketing and more engineering than Troels so I'd go with those. Heissmann has published polar map graphs!
Anyway, Flaxxer what ever you decide go for big speakers like you seem to. Big speakers are so much more fun!
Anyway, Flaxxer what ever you decide go for big speakers like you seem to. Big speakers are so much more fun!
Perhaps if it meets your objectives. For others with significantly different objectives it will be no.
This is a clear objective which will tend to lean you towards designs like the PBN ones which consist of a collection of expensive prestige drivers and lean you away from high technical performance speaker designs. The reason for this is that the high markup and minor influence on technical performance, particularly in comparison with things like waveguides, means that in a well balanced $4000 high technical performance design they would take too much of the budget which would be better allocated elsewhere to raise the technical performance.
BTW your preferred tweeter was (perhaps still is?) Scan-Speak's most profitable driver (see comment near the bottom of here). I rather suspect this is why all the other manufacturers piled on with their own high margin beryllium tweeters. It's not that they aren't good tweeters or even the best the manufacturers produce but that they don't provide enough for the price asked.
Someone mentioned Troels ... Before I research to death, does anyone have anything negative I should know about his designs, before I start?
His strengths and weaknesses as a designer get discussed fairly regularly in threads. He is not strong on the technical side taking a more subjective view and his designs reflect this. You will see criticisms of overly expensive boutique crossovers, little attention to some aspects of technical performance, etc... Although his designs can offer modest value for money he knows enough to avoid designing technically poor speakers (ditto PBN).
Commercial speaker companies often hire consultants to design or help design their speakers (e.g. here and here) but I suspect they are going to be rather over budget for a hobby design. I think you are likely to have more success looking to hobbyists effectively giving away their designs or a commercial operation getting multiple sales from selling a set of plans. Both are risky in the sense the designers are unlikely to be competent engineers unlike (the better) consultants but they can be found within your budget and outlined spec.
Take a look on this project:
HC-GigaLCR DIY kit by StereoArt
Drivers are inexpensive, but good and matching:
1 x SB Acoustics TW29RN - 109€
2 x SB Acoustics SB15NRXC30-8 - 41€
2 x SB Acoustics SB23MFCL45-8 - 105€
Crossover is well designed - excellent off-axis and phase response, top components - Mundorf MCap EVO Oil, Baked AirCore coils.
It goes down to true 30Hz, soundstage is wide and deep.
Full kit include all what you need to build - wires, terminals, damping, solder, drivers&components (all except cabinets) - 1775,00€ with free shipping
In future you may upgrade tweeter with SB Acoustics Beryllium Satori TW29BN, but it will require to adjust crossover.
HC-GigaLCR DIY kit by StereoArt
Drivers are inexpensive, but good and matching:
1 x SB Acoustics TW29RN - 109€
2 x SB Acoustics SB15NRXC30-8 - 41€
2 x SB Acoustics SB23MFCL45-8 - 105€
Crossover is well designed - excellent off-axis and phase response, top components - Mundorf MCap EVO Oil, Baked AirCore coils.
It goes down to true 30Hz, soundstage is wide and deep.
Full kit include all what you need to build - wires, terminals, damping, solder, drivers&components (all except cabinets) - 1775,00€ with free shipping
In future you may upgrade tweeter with SB Acoustics Beryllium Satori TW29BN, but it will require to adjust crossover.
I think I may have steered us off track. For one, spending $4000 on DIY is like spending $25,000 with a speaker manufacturer. So buying branded $4000 speakers just gets me another $1500 offering, dressed up with that business's marketing, advertising, employee pay, etc. Backwards.
A lot of attention gets paid to cabinets being more square ... wtf? There are news of fine speakers without Avalon style facets for the baffle. I'm not trying for a particular design.
My sound room does NOT give one hell about off axis response. None. I listen between the speakers, and noone else is in the room. The speakers are set up for sound at one listening position only..
This should NOT be this difficult! Since there are not any QUALITY kits in my saved funds range, I guess I will keep my money and listen to a $1500 kit with lesser drivers I already have built.
Really sucks when you have the ability to improve your system, an NO quality options.
I guess this is the first time I've ever had money to spend in this industry, and no one with a good solution ready to take my money. This may be the first time I can remember I've been extremely depressed and disappointed in my DIY Journey.
A lot of attention gets paid to cabinets being more square ... wtf? There are news of fine speakers without Avalon style facets for the baffle. I'm not trying for a particular design.
My sound room does NOT give one hell about off axis response. None. I listen between the speakers, and noone else is in the room. The speakers are set up for sound at one listening position only..
This should NOT be this difficult! Since there are not any QUALITY kits in my saved funds range, I guess I will keep my money and listen to a $1500 kit with lesser drivers I already have built.
Really sucks when you have the ability to improve your system, an NO quality options.
I guess this is the first time I've ever had money to spend in this industry, and no one with a good solution ready to take my money. This may be the first time I can remember I've been extremely depressed and disappointed in my DIY Journey.
A test, turn your speakers around facing the back wall, how much sound changed? Not much, you are listening to the off-axis pretty much all the time so it is important, especially when the speaker has low directivity as loud sound is radiated to the sides than to the listening window.
You can pour in the money and be happy, there is no need to be sad/angry with hobbies or things you love Life is too short to waste time being miserable but as with everything else in life I'm afraid there is no shortcuts / free lunches / single magic tricks to fix it all, altough this is what the marketing department always uses to sell stuff, the last magic bean you'll need that'll fix everything. And then one is looking for another since somehow the first magic bean didn't work. Super performance needs some money, time and sweat. Best result is most often behind many little tweaks and conversely, if the little tweaks are missing the performance can't be super, altough good enough is enough.
You can pour in the money and be happy, there is no need to be sad/angry with hobbies or things you love
Life is too short to waste time being miserable but as with everything else in life I'm afraid there is no shortcuts / free lunches / single magic tricks to fix it all, altough this is what the marketing department always uses to sell stuff, the last magic bean you'll need that'll fix everything. And then one is looking for another since somehow the first magic bean didn't work. Super performance needs some money, time and sweat. Best result is most often behind many little tweaks and conversely, if the little tweaks are missing the performance can't be super, altough good enough is enough.
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Save quarter to half the budget for acoustic measures. And you'll end up with double the worth in terms of sound quality. Go for multisub low frequency reproduction. And use speakers that have controlled directivity. Not the 'see my new ride shine' bigger, de facto more expensive and rather classic approach. Ten years ago you'd be excused. Not now anymore
This is not correct. For the price it will be tough for DIYers to match the technical performance of good active 3 way studio monitors from the engineering orientated firms like Neumann, Genelec and such. Doable but challenging.
$25k passive home audio speakers are primarily valued as luxury goods and I am afraid DIY speakers no matter what the technical performance will not get close on these terms.
As others have pointed out, this is also not correct. At the listening position in a normal room in a home more work will be done by the reflected sound waggling your eardrums than the direct sound. The brain pays more attention to the direct sound but because there is more reflected sound it's quality is important to our overall perception of sound quality.
This depends on what you value. In terms of dry technical performance there are a few good quality kits around in your price range plus, of course, a fair number of not so good. If you also value other things as most people do like Beryllium tweeters, passive crossovers, target efficiencies, square looks or whatever then it is really only you that can perform the assessment. Others might be able to provide useful input based on their values but what is top of their list is unlikely to be top of yours.
I think you might be losing the point of DIY a bit. DIY is about making decisions for yourself about what speakers you want to build and enjoy. They may be poor speakers in other people's eyes but this ought to be of only modest importance. What you think about them and the journey you took to create them should dominate.
Just a suggestion, the standard-range BE tweeter from SB was Jeff B's preferred Be tweeter.
SB, SB29BAC - Meniscus Audio
Wolf
SB, SB29BAC - Meniscus Audio
Wolf
what about this project? (I have not read the whole thread, perhaps someone already mentioned this)
its probably considerably less than $4k
Speaker Design Works
its probably considerably less than $4k
Speaker Design Works
Save quarter to half the budget for acoustic measures. And you'll end up with double the worth in terms of sound quality. Go for multisub low frequency reproduction. And use speakers that have controlled directivity. Not the 'see my new ride shine' bigger, de facto more expensive and rather classic approach. Ten years ago you'd be excused. Not now anymore
Excellent advice.
Flaxxer,
I suggest thoroughly reading a well written acoustics book before spending even another dollar. Like Floyd Toole’s “Sound REproduction”.
Once you understand that nearly all of us have 2ch systems that must behave in “small” rooms, you’ll get it. “Small” rooms in the acoustical sense.
Best,
Anand.
OSMC!
I have zero issues with the name—shorten it to OSMC... Premium components (though fancy caps didn't sound "better", in fact the opposite based on testing)—and if you have the woodworking sorted—they are an amazing value—superbly documented and supported. They sound fantastic to me—best speaker I've had—and I'm not at all inspired to try anything else right now. I'm running 25W Pass amps, and Salas preamps...vinyl centric system.
I have zero issues with the name—shorten it to OSMC... Premium components (though fancy caps didn't sound "better", in fact the opposite based on testing)—and if you have the woodworking sorted—they are an amazing value—superbly documented and supported. They sound fantastic to me—best speaker I've had—and I'm not at all inspired to try anything else right now. I'm running 25W Pass amps, and Salas preamps...vinyl centric system.
Does the OP want to DIY or assemble a kit....not the same thing in my book.
If he wants a BE tweeter, I suggest
1+4+15 or 1+6+15
Its hard to beat a good 3 way and there is no decent 2 way design for a 1" tweeter, in my book, for the level of performance I'd want.
I can see, investing in Be for a 1"...but the rest is largely a matter of efficiency and there are likely lots of decent priced options to get you there for mid and bass driver.1+6+12+12 as a 3.5 way would be cool maybe...I'm a dsp/activeXO guy but I am sure you could put together your own passive XO if thats your desire.
You'd think a fancy BE tweeter could get down low enough to cross properly to a 8"...a 1+8+15or12 would be excellent.
If he wants a BE tweeter, I suggest
1+4+15 or 1+6+15
Its hard to beat a good 3 way and there is no decent 2 way design for a 1" tweeter, in my book, for the level of performance I'd want.
I can see, investing in Be for a 1"...but the rest is largely a matter of efficiency and there are likely lots of decent priced options to get you there for mid and bass driver.1+6+12+12 as a 3.5 way would be cool maybe...I'm a dsp/activeXO guy but I am sure you could put together your own passive XO if thats your desire.
You'd think a fancy BE tweeter could get down low enough to cross properly to a 8"...a 1+8+15or12 would be excellent.
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Flaxxer wrote:
Most of the $20k+ direct radiator speaker systems on the market pay close attention to cabinet diffraction (or their appearance implies they do).... This means "Avalon style facets" or large-radius rounded edges at a minimum. At this price range some companies go even further with highly profiled shapes, for example the KEF Blade. I am struggling to think of an example in this price range which utilize a conventional box shape.
Now horn and wave-guide speakers, that is a different story. For these, the shape of the cabinet is much less influential on the sound radiation. The waveguides are the key. For example, the JBL M2. If the cabinet was a large oval or trapazoid instead of a large box, it probably would not make much difference. The highly sophisticated horn controls the sound radiation.
This is the background behind my statement
Most of the $20k+ direct radiator speaker systems on the market pay close attention to cabinet diffraction (or their appearance implies they do).... This means "Avalon style facets" or large-radius rounded edges at a minimum. At this price range some companies go even further with highly profiled shapes, for example the KEF Blade. I am struggling to think of an example in this price range which utilize a conventional box shape.
Now horn and wave-guide speakers, that is a different story. For these, the shape of the cabinet is much less influential on the sound radiation. The waveguides are the key. For example, the JBL M2. If the cabinet was a large oval or trapazoid instead of a large box, it probably would not make much difference. The highly sophisticated horn controls the sound radiation.
This is the background behind my statement
.
Huge thank you to everyone here. Lots of great suggestions and thoughts.
I realize I did not give enough information really. What attracted me to those speakers was two things; High end drivers with high end xover parts.
And the 93db sensitivity of two of them, and 90 for the other.
This is my thoughts boiled down. I have a rare for me, ability to finally purchase a very high end speaker, IF I build it myself. I've fully built 7 kits. But these were actual kits. Woodwork is very easy for me, as is soldering. Building great speakers is easy for me. Designing them? NO
When I saw what I believed were just what I wanted, as far as high end parts, and in kit form, with high sensitivity, I thought I had a near perfect design ...NO
Someone mentioned "For $4000 you could put together a 3-way active system with Hypex N-core amplification and the same high-end drivers as shown in those kits" And this was exaclty what I was thinking as well ... until several pointed out they didn't even feel these cabinets were designed as well as they could be.If they didn't get baffle width, speaker placement proximity, etc right, then THIS plan is also shot to hell.
I do not have a Beryllium tweeter in my collection yet. And I want one. All of the 3 speaker kits I had picked had them. I would really like to try the Illuminator D3004/664000 tweeter.
Someone mentioned Troels ... Before I research to death, does anyone have anything negative I should know about his designs, before I start?
Wanting a Beryllium tweeter can be satisfied with Troels Faital 3WC-15 speakers, along with the high sensitivity. ANYTHING wrong with this kit? LOL. I have the room for it. I can add a sub if needed.
Or would you pay someone to design a "proper" cabinet for one of the PBN designs, and use the drivers with Hypex actively?
Thanks again.
3WC-15 with the beryllium tweeter had poor soundstage height IMO. Despite being sensitive it was actually much better with higher power solid state amps. The mid range is a stunner though.
Consider JB Helios speaker or LX521 (both of which I own)
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What Pfarrell said...
The linked thread is very good, but the document by Matthias puts a lot of it together along with a picture which is important:
osmcdoc/osmc_paper.pdf at master * mbrennwa/osmcdoc * GitHub
Best,
Anand.
The linked thread is very good, but the document by Matthias puts a lot of it together along with a picture which is important:
osmcdoc/osmc_paper.pdf at master * mbrennwa/osmcdoc * GitHub
Best,
Anand.