So I’ve ended up ordering the film capacitors as well and these arrived today so they were the ones I used. There was some improvement but not a great deal.
I have tried phoning Wilmslow Audio several times about possible replacement mids and tweeters but they never answer the phone. Can anyone recommend some other companies that might be able to give similar advice?
Also, I take it that I would need different capacitors in the crossover if I change the mids?
I have tried phoning Wilmslow Audio several times about possible replacement mids and tweeters but they never answer the phone. Can anyone recommend some other companies that might be able to give similar advice?
Also, I take it that I would need different capacitors in the crossover if I change the mids?
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I imagine it would be useful for others to know the size of the midrange cutout in the cabinet, and the actual cone diameter.
Does the original midrange have its own rear enclosure to seal it from the bass unit and help define its midrange roll on.
Some quick scanning of the web suggests midrange covers the range 1200 - 6000hz at 90/87db Sensitivity. I guess there should be a few prospective midranges that could help form Seas, SB Acoustics, ScanSpeak etc.
These would sensibly require a crossover design to integrate them or a complete revisit on crossover points. Probably that would give you a much more accurate speaker, but it would be doubtful it would have a sound like the original if that's what you are after.
Post covid everything seems to have increased in price, consequently a pair of decent 12 cm midranges wont come cheaply. Maybe a 2.5" fullranger might be a way of keeping a setup of 1200 - 6k and maintaining low costs. Which begs the question how loud do you listen and how many watts were you going to drive them with ?
Does the original midrange have its own rear enclosure to seal it from the bass unit and help define its midrange roll on.
Some quick scanning of the web suggests midrange covers the range 1200 - 6000hz at 90/87db Sensitivity. I guess there should be a few prospective midranges that could help form Seas, SB Acoustics, ScanSpeak etc.
These would sensibly require a crossover design to integrate them or a complete revisit on crossover points. Probably that would give you a much more accurate speaker, but it would be doubtful it would have a sound like the original if that's what you are after.
Post covid everything seems to have increased in price, consequently a pair of decent 12 cm midranges wont come cheaply. Maybe a 2.5" fullranger might be a way of keeping a setup of 1200 - 6k and maintaining low costs. Which begs the question how loud do you listen and how many watts were you going to drive them with ?
Dave, you have no way of knowing what these speakers are supposed to sound like. Perhaps they sound exactly as originally intended! Consider that it may be uneconomical to try to improve them by purchasing expensive replacement drivers, and consider further that a new crossover would have to be modelled.
P.S. You may have more luck if you email Wilmslow Audio, but the prices may make your eyes water! enquiries@wilmslow-audio.co.uk
Going back to the images of your mid range drivers. The first one has white stuff, PVA? showing between the cone and the central dome/dust cap assembly.
If you look at the second midrange image there does appear to be a gap without any white stuff at the join between dome and the cone.
Do you know if that driver makes sound, or is only the coil and dustcap moving with the cone staying still?
If the Xover frequency is around 1200 hz they wont move much anyway with sensible levels so it may be difficult to discern what is actually moving, the coil and dustcap or the coil dustcap and cone?
You could double check all wiring against the original picture. At the same time looking for corroded or dry joints on the Xover and speaker terminals.
In desperation you could try swapping the midrange wiring to see if that actually makes it far worse or improves the situation. It has been known for drivers to be wrongly connected at the factory and we have all done it at some time when building speakers.
If you look at the second midrange image there does appear to be a gap without any white stuff at the join between dome and the cone.
Do you know if that driver makes sound, or is only the coil and dustcap moving with the cone staying still?
If the Xover frequency is around 1200 hz they wont move much anyway with sensible levels so it may be difficult to discern what is actually moving, the coil and dustcap or the coil dustcap and cone?
You could double check all wiring against the original picture. At the same time looking for corroded or dry joints on the Xover and speaker terminals.
In desperation you could try swapping the midrange wiring to see if that actually makes it far worse or improves the situation. It has been known for drivers to be wrongly connected at the factory and we have all done it at some time when building speakers.
I found this link for your speakers with a lower xover point of 800Hz. See here
http://ukhhsoc.torrens.org/makers/Goodmans/1970_Catalogue/Page14.jpeg
The response is good so they should be good sounding depending on how age has affected them. If the originals were 4 ohm drivers and if they meet the cut out dimensions these could be a cheap gap filler
https://cpc.farnell.com/peerless-by-tymphany/tc8fd00-04/tc-full-range-80-mm-4-ohm/dp/LS05128
http://ukhhsoc.torrens.org/makers/Goodmans/1970_Catalogue/Page14.jpeg
The response is good so they should be good sounding depending on how age has affected them. If the originals were 4 ohm drivers and if they meet the cut out dimensions these could be a cheap gap filler
https://cpc.farnell.com/peerless-by-tymphany/tc8fd00-04/tc-full-range-80-mm-4-ohm/dp/LS05128
The mids have a closed back (see attachment) and a nominal 8 ohm impedance.
Attachments
Galu thanks for the Images.
So any replacement will need its own 1-2 litre enclosure. large yoghurt pot or suitable cardboard tube or PVC pipe, closed at the rear.
I have read that getting access to the internals of the cabinet on this model can be a pain as the back is sealed and may have really stuck down after so many years. Needing some ingenuity to unstick it and remove it.
Still recoverable but will need some effort.
So any replacement will need its own 1-2 litre enclosure. large yoghurt pot or suitable cardboard tube or PVC pipe, closed at the rear.
I have read that getting access to the internals of the cabinet on this model can be a pain as the back is sealed and may have really stuck down after so many years. Needing some ingenuity to unstick it and remove it.
Still recoverable but will need some effort.
@raymondj might be easier to do this in metric: the cutout is 10cm, with the back of the mids being about 9cm, the actual cone is approx 7-8cm, difficult to gauge exactly because there’s quite a substantial border. You’re right, there’s very little movement from the cone at various levels. I could always take a jigsaw to the cutout to avoid being limited by size on the mids and tweets. Listening levels anywhere from 40-80db depends on how many neighbours are home. They came with a Sony TA-FE370 which I believe is 70w/channel. I’m not worried about purist sound, I may as well go for accuracy.
@Galu yes, I have considered that they sound as they were originally intended, in which case the obvious choice would be to drop something more accurate in there. I love the design of these older speakers so have decided to see what can be done so save from landfill. I really do appreciate the continued warnings about putting too much money into these but I’ve spent very little on caps and glue. If I treat the veneer and replace the internal wiring it will be stuff I have in the shed. So it’s really just the cost of the drivers… what is an eye watering price? Half the kits on Wilmslow with Visaton drivers are just a veneered MDF box or am I missing the point? To me, these are good solid cabinets with vintage charm, what’s the harm in dropping a couple of better drivers in there? This is only for personal use, not for resale and profit. Unless you’re suggesting that the size/age of the cabinet and placement of the cutouts is going to have a significant impact on any replacement drivers and do a disservice to them? I’m not trying to be obtuse, just trying to understand what the negatives are.
@Galu yes, I have considered that they sound as they were originally intended, in which case the obvious choice would be to drop something more accurate in there. I love the design of these older speakers so have decided to see what can be done so save from landfill. I really do appreciate the continued warnings about putting too much money into these but I’ve spent very little on caps and glue. If I treat the veneer and replace the internal wiring it will be stuff I have in the shed. So it’s really just the cost of the drivers… what is an eye watering price? Half the kits on Wilmslow with Visaton drivers are just a veneered MDF box or am I missing the point? To me, these are good solid cabinets with vintage charm, what’s the harm in dropping a couple of better drivers in there? This is only for personal use, not for resale and profit. Unless you’re suggesting that the size/age of the cabinet and placement of the cutouts is going to have a significant impact on any replacement drivers and do a disservice to them? I’m not trying to be obtuse, just trying to understand what the negatives are.
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Sorry didn’t see this when I posted the above, I’ve already gutted them. You have to take the mids and tweeters out and undo the nuts on the 4 bolts protruding from the bass surround (with a stubby cross point to hold the back) then push the bass driver out from behind. After this, the foam can be removed and the 4 nuts holding the crossover board taken off. That’s the entire thing stripped down. I could easily jigsaw cutouts at this point. I don’t think removing the back is the intended design, I’m confident I could fit an enclosure from the bass cutout before dropping it back in, or worst case scenario I could add a smaller opening to the back, but would require adding additional support on the inside for it and a foam gasket to rest on.
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I haven't read all this thread, but have a suggestion for a midrange enclosure:
Blue Aran - The UK's no.1 Loudspeaker Component Stockist > Beyma > Replacement Parts
Screw and epoxy glue should do it IMO. Now you just need a loud mid. Or fullranger like markaudio if it is loud enough.
Blue Aran - The UK's no.1 Loudspeaker Component Stockist > Beyma > Replacement Parts
Screw and epoxy glue should do it IMO. Now you just need a loud mid. Or fullranger like markaudio if it is loud enough.
Well, that's a personal judgement. I would say that the replacement mids at Wilmslow are rather expensive for your renovation project.
This closed back midrange driver would be a candidate and the full specs are here: GRS 5SBM1-8 5-1/4" Sealed Back Midrange with 1" Voice Coil 8 Ohm
Cut out diameter is 111mm.
I've found a UK supplier, but the price is higher: GRS 5SBM1-8 5-1/4" Sealed Back Midrange with 1" Voice Coil 8 Ohm
– DirectNine - United Kingdom
Thanks, that looks like just the thing. Probably cheaper/easier than buying a length of pipe and cutting etc.
I can find a pair of those on eBay but I am thinking it might be better to just increase the cut out and put something bigger in there? Bearing in mind the size of the bass driver (and assuming I can make the spacing work) what would I ideally want to be putting in there? 5”?
What about these? Monacor SPH-102KEP Size 106x106mm And for tweeters these? Monacor DTM-104/8 Diameter 104mm
Since, as you have said, you want to punch through the bass, you need a mid with a high sensitivity rating (which can be padded down if necessary).
The Monacor SPH-102KEP has a lowish sensitivity of 88dB compared to the high 93dB sensitivity of the sealed back GRS 5SBM1-8 to which I linked.
Plus, if it were me, I would choose a dedicated midrange driver rather than a mid/bass driver.
I have no quarrel with Monacor though, and use one of their tweeters myself.
The Monacor SPH-102KEP has a lowish sensitivity of 88dB compared to the high 93dB sensitivity of the sealed back GRS 5SBM1-8 to which I linked.
Plus, if it were me, I would choose a dedicated midrange driver rather than a mid/bass driver.
I have no quarrel with Monacor though, and use one of their tweeters myself.
P.S. I've just looked at the Markaudio CHN-70 and it, too, has a lowish sensitivity (86.7dB).
CHN-70 | Markaudio
CHN-70 | Markaudio
I'll just add another candidate with an enclosure added since I have dug around. Be £45 in all for the two drivers: Faital Pro 4FE32 - 4", 91dB 1W/1m which is the same as 2.83V/1m for 8 ohms, IIRC.
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 4FE32 (8Ω)
Faital Pro : Faital Pro 4FE32 8 Ohm Faston :: PS19.62 IN STOCK (17 Jul 2021)
Might work. Mids are never as loud as the tweeter and bass, and a mid filter tends to boost the mid anyway. But I'd want to model it to check.
I found a closed back 5" too:
SPP-125 - Midrange Speaker - Monacor UK | Monacor UK
Monacor SPP-125 5.25 Inch midrange hifi driver PS11.63
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 4FE32 (8Ω)
Faital Pro : Faital Pro 4FE32 8 Ohm Faston :: PS19.62 IN STOCK (17 Jul 2021)
Might work. Mids are never as loud as the tweeter and bass, and a mid filter tends to boost the mid anyway. But I'd want to model it to check.
I found a closed back 5" too:
SPP-125 - Midrange Speaker - Monacor UK | Monacor UK
Monacor SPP-125 5.25 Inch midrange hifi driver PS11.63
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Late to this thread
The midrange is the same or a variation of the one used in the Radford S90. The Faital Pro Sys7 mentions, MA CHP70 should work, will both need a sunEnclosure.
I really liked the woofer in these.
The tweeter — i may have 1 or more of those in my tweeter stash.
But i would just run a 4” PVC tube out the back, mount MA Alpair 5.2 in the subEnclosure, XO at 350-450 Hz and just w\leave it as a WAW.
dave
The midrange is the same or a variation of the one used in the Radford S90. The Faital Pro Sys7 mentions, MA CHP70 should work, will both need a sunEnclosure.
I really liked the woofer in these.
The tweeter — i may have 1 or more of those in my tweeter stash.
But i would just run a 4” PVC tube out the back, mount MA Alpair 5.2 in the subEnclosure, XO at 350-450 Hz and just w\leave it as a WAW.
dave
I like that Monacor, Steve.
Very similar to my closed back suggestion, and a low price from Blue Aran.
No sub enclosure required.
System7 4" faital pro suggestion looks very good, and a neat find on another sealed midrange.
Planet10 has given us his advice too, so a few sensible choices to go with now.
An Alpair 5.2 with a the Goodmans 12" woofer should be an interesting and rewarding experiment, but will need the crossover adjusting for the woofer roll off at 450Hz. Once integrated it could make for a marvellous speaker. For the Mark audio in its 4"plastic pipe you may adjust the crossover frequency by stuffing the pipe. or stuffing and the use of a small in series inductor. For the bass roll off you will need a bigger inductor and possibly a larger cap to help adjust the roll off to help with good integration between woofer and full range.
Trying the sealed Monacor mid range, assuming it can be easily ordered should be relatively low risk, although it does appear to have a bit of a bump in its frequency curve. Without measurements it is suck it and see. On the plus side things are reasonably aligned with the 8 ohms and 87dBs sensitivity and you are within a dB or so of the original specified sensitivity.
Planet10 has given us his advice too, so a few sensible choices to go with now.
An Alpair 5.2 with a the Goodmans 12" woofer should be an interesting and rewarding experiment, but will need the crossover adjusting for the woofer roll off at 450Hz. Once integrated it could make for a marvellous speaker. For the Mark audio in its 4"plastic pipe you may adjust the crossover frequency by stuffing the pipe. or stuffing and the use of a small in series inductor. For the bass roll off you will need a bigger inductor and possibly a larger cap to help adjust the roll off to help with good integration between woofer and full range.
Trying the sealed Monacor mid range, assuming it can be easily ordered should be relatively low risk, although it does appear to have a bit of a bump in its frequency curve. Without measurements it is suck it and see. On the plus side things are reasonably aligned with the 8 ohms and 87dBs sensitivity and you are within a dB or so of the original specified sensitivity.