"In a nutshell, if two loudspeakers measure the same, why do people have a subjective preference for direct radiators? "
The Preference for Direct Radiators
Patrick Bateman "The Preference for Direct Radiators" ..... attempts to cover the horn vs. direct radiator comparison.
=======
“Champagne Tastes on a Beer Budget”
The LARGE (H60”xW22”xD18.5”) Daniel Hertz M1 3-way speaker with its 18” woofer + 12” midrange + 1” horn loaded compression driver helped create clever well reviewed designs like Troels “the Loudspeaker”... but a $850 woofer limits who can experience these large high efficiency designs.
diysound group Maximus_18 (H48” x W23” x D17”) was one option, but no longer sold.
A good diyAudio challenge would be to explore what sound quality is possible with parts costing $500 – $600 per speaker for: 18” woofer + 12” midrange + 1” horn loaded compression driver + passive crossover components and/or Bi-Amping.
Classic Large Monitor using 18" woofer + 12" midwoofer + horn tweeter for $550 - $ 600/speaker parts
$16 B-52 PHRN-1014 1" Horn 10" x 14" Bolt-On waveguide
--Model: PHRN-1014|Part # 299-2303
$66 Peerless 1.75" DFM-2544R00-08 compression driver
$140 Eminence Delta Pro12A Midrange:
$240Peavey LoRider 18" woofer/subwoofer options
---18" Peavey Low Rider 00479910 Mms 163gm •Qts 0.343 •Fo (Hz): 28.9
---18" Peavey Low Rider Subwoofer 00560600 Mms 198.20gm •Qts: 0.429 •Fo (Hz): 28.9
----------------------
$462 -drivers/speaker
The Preference for Direct Radiators
Patrick Bateman "The Preference for Direct Radiators" ..... attempts to cover the horn vs. direct radiator comparison.
=======
“Champagne Tastes on a Beer Budget”
The LARGE (H60”xW22”xD18.5”) Daniel Hertz M1 3-way speaker with its 18” woofer + 12” midrange + 1” horn loaded compression driver helped create clever well reviewed designs like Troels “the Loudspeaker”... but a $850 woofer limits who can experience these large high efficiency designs.
diysound group Maximus_18 (H48” x W23” x D17”) was one option, but no longer sold.
A good diyAudio challenge would be to explore what sound quality is possible with parts costing $500 – $600 per speaker for: 18” woofer + 12” midrange + 1” horn loaded compression driver + passive crossover components and/or Bi-Amping.
Classic Large Monitor using 18" woofer + 12" midwoofer + horn tweeter for $550 - $ 600/speaker parts
$16 B-52 PHRN-1014 1" Horn 10" x 14" Bolt-On waveguide
--Model: PHRN-1014|Part # 299-2303
$66 Peerless 1.75" DFM-2544R00-08 compression driver
$140 Eminence Delta Pro12A Midrange:
$240Peavey LoRider 18" woofer/subwoofer options
---18" Peavey Low Rider 00479910 Mms 163gm •Qts 0.343 •Fo (Hz): 28.9
---18" Peavey Low Rider Subwoofer 00560600 Mms 198.20gm •Qts: 0.429 •Fo (Hz): 28.9
----------------------
$462 -drivers/speaker
Attachments
I have heard two the Loudspeakers 1s, one with Visaton the other with the GRT 145 as supertweeter. They are better than most older JBLs, e.g. 4345s that they replicate, unless these old speakers are upgraded and maintenance is performed. The old JBL monster monitors were always one of the best performing vintage speakers IMO, but often the state you found them in used, was terrible. JBL makes great drivers but you can easily spend the 3K-4K on replacing drivers. And many were abused, bad!
Both JBL and TL1 are monitors that excell in being neutral, good off axis response and that things sound how they should, e.g. a stradocaster does not sound like a Telecaster.
I am not a huge fan of the B&W, apart from the Nautilus
, for me they are accurate but something is off a bit unnatural, makes you listen to the speaker instead of the music. E.g. the 800 series even with the "best" drivers and all the technology measure really well but there is something off, also the sensitivity is of course way lower than the JBLs or TL1s. Less dynamic, less engaging. The diamond tweeter is probably on par in transparancy with the horns, but of course there is a distinct sound diffference in horns vs. tweeters. Bass of a 18" compared with the two 8" of the 802 no contest IMO. Maybe for extremely critical listening there is some less distortion in the 802, but comparing the two most people would prefer the 18"as being more natural. Bass just appears and literally moves you Actually the B&W same as the Wilson Audio tend to have quite a bump around70 hz.
Troel and JBL both went for natural trying to recreate live concert. Most hifi speakers tend to try to excell at "highfidelity" which seeks to eliminate distortion/coloratio, transparancy and retrieving some arcane details off of reference recordings High End tends to have a sound and is usually bellow 89db sensitivity.
Sonus Faber are more natural than the B&W but it's been a while I heard some and those were no comparison in price to theTL1, well maybecomparisons to the JBL everest
The biggest benefit for the B&W and Sonus Faber is higher WAF and slimmness. Every speaker is a compromise. The JBL and the TL1 much less so, since they don't have to compromise on size and size of drivers. Most regular tower speakers will compromise A LOT to fit everything into a package that will sell easily and is easy to construct and inexpensive.
I would say if you like the sound of a big speaker and have the space and "wife"for them the JBL Monster e.g. 43XX Monitors and Troels TL1 just brings something unusual to the table, but without a lot of the compromises of full horn setups, e.g. low end extension and horrible frequency spectrum.
I'll abuse the Napoleon quote of quantity is a quality of its own and for speakers it becomes size is a quality of its own.
Listen to a grand piano on a speaker with 300L or 50L. The small speaker just does not produce a credible grand piano or double bass. Size and radiating area matter. When the HIFI shows start again go and compare a regular hifi speaker with some horns or maybe also the JBLs, not easy I know. Some people prefer one over the other. Just terrible if you prefer big sound but instead need to compromise on small
Hope that helps
Both JBL and TL1 are monitors that excell in being neutral, good off axis response and that things sound how they should, e.g. a stradocaster does not sound like a Telecaster.
I am not a huge fan of the B&W, apart from the Nautilus
, for me they are accurate but something is off a bit unnatural, makes you listen to the speaker instead of the music. E.g. the 800 series even with the "best" drivers and all the technology measure really well but there is something off, also the sensitivity is of course way lower than the JBLs or TL1s. Less dynamic, less engaging. The diamond tweeter is probably on par in transparancy with the horns, but of course there is a distinct sound diffference in horns vs. tweeters. Bass of a 18" compared with the two 8" of the 802 no contest IMO. Maybe for extremely critical listening there is some less distortion in the 802, but comparing the two most people would prefer the 18"as being more natural. Bass just appears and literally moves you Actually the B&W same as the Wilson Audio tend to have quite a bump around70 hz.Troel and JBL both went for natural trying to recreate live concert. Most hifi speakers tend to try to excell at "highfidelity" which seeks to eliminate distortion/coloratio, transparancy and retrieving some arcane details off of reference recordings
High End tends to have a sound and is usually bellow 89db sensitivity. Sonus Faber are more natural than the B&W but it's been a while I heard some and those were no comparison in price to theTL1, well maybecomparisons to the JBL everest
The biggest benefit for the B&W and Sonus Faber is higher WAF and slimmness. Every speaker is a compromise. The JBL and the TL1 much less so, since they don't have to compromise on size and size of drivers. Most regular tower speakers will compromise A LOT to fit everything into a package that will sell easily and is easy to construct and inexpensive.
I would say if you like the sound of a big speaker and have the space and "wife"for them the JBL Monster e.g. 43XX Monitors and Troels TL1 just brings something unusual to the table, but without a lot of the compromises of full horn setups, e.g. low end extension and horrible frequency spectrum.
I'll abuse the Napoleon quote of quantity is a quality of its own and for speakers it becomes size is a quality of its own.
Listen to a grand piano on a speaker with 300L or 50L. The small speaker just does not produce a credible grand piano or double bass. Size and radiating area matter. When the HIFI shows start again go and compare a regular hifi speaker with some horns or maybe also the JBLs, not easy I know. Some people prefer one over the other. Just terrible if you prefer big sound but instead need to compromise on small
Hope that helps
A good speaker is a speaker that works in your room only if the source and amp are good enough. The amp being the " easiest" problem to solve but very exotic hungry loudspeakers. If your source is good enough then comes the difficult problem of your room and the loudspeaker in the highs and bass mostly, each other having an influence on each others in term of tonal balance.
Then according the designers and manufacturers come into the game some tonal , aka iso curves, preference : more or less bass, energy, imaging, readiness aka the opposite of liveness. With my main speaker the amount of bass is dictating what the room can support vs the tonal balance, vs the liveness, vs the readiness attribute sometimes called clarity for bad reasons.
In my room on about on 0.2 uf difference 105 uf in a second order on bass towards the Gnd circa ...one has to find by ear when sim and measurement don't say enough of what your source, room, amp, and below Schroeder frequency are, ther equilibrium that sounds good is noticeable but a pain to find (passive).
So your bet is to reduce the uncertainty. It means a three ways, not too much money at the beginning cause the loudspeakers don't know the rest of the equation... and time, many time.
Want going faster, which is not surely better at the end : go active or second hand, both to winn time and money -building cabinet is quite expensive and then halfy well made can waste the whole result. But if your hobby, try not to go diy, but second hand you can work on. If it's your hobby and wallet not a Hobbit, then Troels, HumbleHomeMade as many shared designs everywhere is a way of life -as every hobby is-
shorter answer, try a pre with multiple set up or digital EQ to save time, Hifi is a whole.
Then according the designers and manufacturers come into the game some tonal , aka iso curves, preference : more or less bass, energy, imaging, readiness aka the opposite of liveness. With my main speaker the amount of bass is dictating what the room can support vs the tonal balance, vs the liveness, vs the readiness attribute sometimes called clarity for bad reasons.
In my room on about on 0.2 uf difference 105 uf in a second order on bass towards the Gnd circa ...one has to find by ear when sim and measurement don't say enough of what your source, room, amp, and below Schroeder frequency are, ther equilibrium that sounds good is noticeable but a pain to find (passive).
So your bet is to reduce the uncertainty. It means a three ways, not too much money at the beginning cause the loudspeakers don't know the rest of the equation... and time, many time.
Want going faster, which is not surely better at the end : go active or second hand, both to winn time and money -building cabinet is quite expensive and then halfy well made can waste the whole result. But if your hobby, try not to go diy, but second hand you can work on. If it's your hobby and wallet not a Hobbit, then Troels, HumbleHomeMade as many shared designs everywhere is a way of life -as every hobby is-
shorter answer, try a pre with multiple set up or digital EQ to save time, Hifi is a whole.
For me the issue is how linear the drivers are and how low the THD is, but the speakers should disappear in the stereo image and not draw attention to themselves. I dont like the typical coloration many people prefer in the midrange and treble that usually come along with smaller 2 way designs. I prefer a really good 3 way design with the mid covering at least up to 4 ish KHz. Also, i don't like the type of bass that tends to come with very small drivers being overworked, so larger LF drivers are my preference ie, at least a 12 or 2 really good 10s per side. The LF response needs to reach down flat at least to 40Hz and be able to be felt in the chest if called upon. The SPL needs to be able to go into the low 100 dB area as well without signs of straining or increase in distortion, especially in the lower midrange, where most of the meat is from larger instruments ike piano, upright bass and drums, but also some male vocals and guitar.
I have heard some nice 2.5 way designs with the revelator Scan Speak and Seas Prestige drivers, but these are usually mid bass heavy and require a good distance from the walls to not sound that way. Overall, it takes a 3 way to achieve the performance I like. The only decent 2 way speaker I like as a standalone design (no subs) is the Seas clone of the Dynaco A25. This speaker can sound really nice with the right source and amplification, but the sacrifice is reduced midrange resolution and a narrow sweet spot.
I've owned a few B&W 800 series 2 speakers and can tell you they need a lot of juice to make them shine. The midrange is pretty good in terms of resolution and imaging, as well as the top end. The older series 2 Matrix have some of the best metal domes I've ever heard and the Kevlar mid is almost on par with a planar driver. It can expose a lot of detail in a good recording but also make a mediocre source sound really bad.
I have heard some nice 2.5 way designs with the revelator Scan Speak and Seas Prestige drivers, but these are usually mid bass heavy and require a good distance from the walls to not sound that way. Overall, it takes a 3 way to achieve the performance I like. The only decent 2 way speaker I like as a standalone design (no subs) is the Seas clone of the Dynaco A25. This speaker can sound really nice with the right source and amplification, but the sacrifice is reduced midrange resolution and a narrow sweet spot.
I've owned a few B&W 800 series 2 speakers and can tell you they need a lot of juice to make them shine. The midrange is pretty good in terms of resolution and imaging, as well as the top end. The older series 2 Matrix have some of the best metal domes I've ever heard and the Kevlar mid is almost on par with a planar driver. It can expose a lot of detail in a good recording but also make a mediocre source sound really bad.
No, it didn't help me because I already knew it and I share the whole article .....
Big boxes, big sound, small boxes, small sound.
There is no escape.
I take that for granted, large cabinets will perform better in large rooms ...
You will find calculators online surely that will give you an approximate result, take it as a guideline only.
I have not seen his room only in partial photographs, I do not know the real physical dimensions.
But if I remember correctly, he has commented that he was pleasantly surprised by locating the TL1 in his living room.
I have personally experienced that, I have listened to JBL 4345 in rooms of 90 m3 (6x5x3 mts.) And the sound was magnificent, with the only treatment of a lot of absorbent furniture.
Attachments
@academia50 not quite sure what you are refering to with the article and I was trying to respond to nbrio. I assume it was "I agree dammn bigger is bigger sound
@nbrio A summary. Figure out if you like big speaker, dynamic sound, or horn directivity and startling effect. If not life is easy, go check out all low to highfi speakers, dsp, Damps and be impressed with what can be acomplished in a slim box and remain in mainstream and possibly your marriage.
If you prefer the big box live sound and marketing has not been able to convince you, you are kind of f.<<ed, and have few options and often need a lot of dedication. then the used (old e.g. JBL, ALTEC, VOTT, ) or diy is usually the best bet. Actually almost the only afordable bet nowadays, because highend is 99% selling slim high WAF speakers, or very colored/bad frequency response fullranges or high efficiency speakers ZU or Voxitiv. Troels wanted to create "The Loudspeaker" and taking the less compromise big speaker approach (although still fairly afordable) with modern highest quality PA drivers, a lot of experienc allows someone to own a system that will rival a JBL Everest without spending nearly €100K. It really is shocking what big sound will cost these days because there are so few sold and economies of scale.
To sum up If you can have a Monster Monitor these can do things even the most expensive high end speakers have problems with. Hard to beat physics
@academia50 part2. Not sure if you have been in Japan, but those audiophiles over there, actually in a lot of Asia, have seemingly the opposite philosophy
The Monster Monitors e.g. 43xx can sound really good in small rooms as well, if carefully set up. And there is just so little distortion due to little cone movement that is magical. Just go into a good recording studio sound mixing booth with large monitors, they will be spot on even in small rooms. I do agree with you if you really want to get the maximum out of the JBLs or TL1 40+m² just does something with a lot of membrane area. They give you the rruely live and immersive plus magical bass. But then again I have been in these Japanese rooms they can be spectacular but mostly low level listening. That the TL1 has DSP active subwoofers does help integrating them easier. I usually find the large monitors are much less sensitive to setup than typical hifi speakers. Having the woofer be closed box also helps, see the Asathor thread here for an inexpensive promising (haven't heard) speaker that does well in smallish rooms and close to walls. Same for the Troels 861 that I have heard
@profiguy agree with almost everything. regarding the B&W set many of those up. Not really my thing but if you like electrostatic and hi end sound they are technologically and acoustically excellent. I tend to prefer high efficiency/PRAT/dynamics, big speaker/cones and horns and tubes and B&W really need the appropriate amplification/chain, similar to planars . Forgot the Matrix metal dome tweeters changed my perception of metal domes too. Oh and the cabinets are really well damped on the B&W. They are an engineers' speaker as my former boss said Not many musicians own them though I have been told
The thing I woud now add to a speaker I want after decades in high fi installation is having a bigger sweatspot/better off axis response to enable walking around or having friends over, but that has just developed over the last few years. And this is another area where horns/large studiomonitors are usually better than most classic high end speakers with narrow sweetspot, e.g. B&W
@room, yeah do not get me started on room. I was and still am astounded how much is spent on upgrades vs. dealing with the room. Here of course seating position, loudspeaker position, damping, difractions and dealing with standing waves are usually more important in 95% of houses than doubling the driver or chain budget. And don'tforget the electricity...
@ All Troels is a specific sound, not fatiguing very authentic and natural sound having instruments sound like they do, without the 70hz bump often found in high end BR. More monitor (neutral) and less thrills that you get tired of. Other speakers can sound more exciting at first, but he has a combination of musical and high end sound that is for long term listening.
Now hope that helps
@nbrio A summary. Figure out if you like big speaker, dynamic sound, or horn directivity and startling effect. If not life is easy, go check out all low to highfi speakers, dsp, Damps and be impressed with what can be acomplished in a slim box and remain in mainstream and possibly your marriage
.If you prefer the big box live sound and marketing has not been able to convince you, you are kind of f.<<ed, and have few options and often need a lot of dedication. then the used (old e.g. JBL, ALTEC, VOTT, ) or diy is usually the best bet. Actually almost the only afordable bet nowadays, because highend is 99% selling slim high WAF speakers, or very colored/bad frequency response fullranges or high efficiency speakers ZU or Voxitiv. Troels wanted to create "The Loudspeaker" and taking the less compromise big speaker approach (although still fairly afordable) with modern highest quality PA drivers, a lot of experienc allows someone to own a system that will rival a JBL Everest without spending nearly €100K. It really is shocking what big sound will cost these days because there are so few sold and economies of scale.
To sum up If you can have a Monster Monitor these can do things even the most expensive high end speakers have problems with. Hard to beat physics
@academia50 part2. Not sure if you have been in Japan, but those audiophiles over there, actually in a lot of Asia, have seemingly the opposite philosophy
@profiguy agree with almost everything. regarding the B&W set many of those up. Not really my thing but if you like electrostatic and hi end sound they are technologically and acoustically excellent. I tend to prefer high efficiency/PRAT/dynamics, big speaker/cones and horns and tubes and B&W really need the appropriate amplification/chain, similar to planars
. Forgot the Matrix metal dome tweeters changed my perception of metal domes too. Oh and the cabinets are really well damped on the B&W. They are an engineers' speaker as my former boss said Not many musicians own them though I have been toldThe thing I woud now add to a speaker I want after decades in high fi installation is having a bigger sweatspot/better off axis response to enable walking around or having friends over, but that has just developed over the last few years. And this is another area where horns/large studiomonitors are usually better than most classic high end speakers with narrow sweetspot, e.g. B&W
@room, yeah do not get me started on room. I was and still am astounded how much is spent on upgrades vs. dealing with the room. Here of course seating position, loudspeaker position, damping, difractions and dealing with standing waves are usually more important in 95% of houses than doubling the driver or chain budget. And don'tforget the electricity...
@ All Troels is a specific sound, not fatiguing very authentic and natural sound having instruments sound like they do, without the 70hz bump often found in high end BR. More monitor (neutral) and less thrills that you get tired of. Other speakers can sound more exciting at first, but he has a combination of musical and high end sound that is for long term listening.
Now hope that helps
tubeglow49
I'm sorry I wasn't clear, I didn't want to completely quote your entire article but it was too brief, the meaning I wanted to give it is how you understood it, I fully agree with your post, I like big speakers, I think the laws Physics for low frequencies (especially) cannot be changed .....
No, I have not been to Japan, I guess you say it because they are very fans of JBL refrigerator sizes, you already know Kenrick Sound for sure.
I'm not very sure about some modifications that I have seen in YT, I don't know if they are only cosmetic touch-ups or have some I+D invested, because using a multimeter does not seem very advanced to me.... In fact, with my little PC speakers that I use right now, those highs broke my eardrums ! Your last post helped again, you can "sign it"!
[Old Vid] ダイアフラム音質比較 JBL Sound Comparison 3 different diaphragms 2416H driver (4425 system) KENRICK - YouTube
I'm sorry I wasn't clear, I didn't want to completely quote your entire article but it was too brief, the meaning I wanted to give it is how you understood it, I fully agree with your post, I like big speakers, I think the laws Physics for low frequencies (especially) cannot be changed .....
No, I have not been to Japan, I guess you say it because they are very fans of JBL refrigerator sizes, you already know Kenrick Sound for sure.
I'm not very sure about some modifications that I have seen in YT, I don't know if they are only cosmetic touch-ups or have some I+D invested, because using a multimeter does not seem very advanced to me.... In fact, with my little PC speakers that I use right now, those highs broke my eardrums !
Your last post helped again, you can "sign it"![Old Vid] ダイアフラム音質比較 JBL Sound Comparison 3 different diaphragms 2416H driver (4425 system) KENRICK - YouTube
Ah found the specs from the original setup guide by JBL for the JBL 4350 monitors, these:
Thanks Stereonet.au
"for optimum source localization within the stereo image, a pair of 4350s should be arranged so that the listening position is centered between the two systems and no more than 30degrees off-axis horizontally (or 15degrees vertically) from either unit... A minimum distance of 2.5 meters (8 feet) should be maintained between the 4350 and the listener."
So they were designed for a mid size american recording studio and for mid to nearish field listening. And this is the dual 15" 4350 monster. They should good in a 5mx5m or 4mx5m. That photo above that shows the back of the couch (black strip) on the left has a room of about 3mx4m probably 2.8m x 3.6m, a "bit" smallish but probably OKishif there is some space beind couch. The bass will be be better in 40 or 50+m² room but if you do low level listening this would work.
but those monsters actually have similar listening distance to most high end speakers and can often be placed closer to the rear wall than say a 6-8" multiway. Front firing BR help.
Cheers
Thanks Stereonet.au
"for optimum source localization within the stereo image, a pair of 4350s should be arranged so that the listening position is centered between the two systems and no more than 30degrees off-axis horizontally (or 15degrees vertically) from either unit... A minimum distance of 2.5 meters (8 feet) should be maintained between the 4350 and the listener."
So they were designed for a mid size american recording studio and for mid to nearish field listening. And this is the dual 15" 4350 monster. They should good in a 5mx5m or 4mx5m. That photo above that shows the back of the couch (black strip) on the left has a room of about 3mx4m probably 2.8m x 3.6m, a "bit" smallish but probably OKishif there is some space beind couch. The bass will be be better in 40 or 50+m² room but if you do low level listening this would work.
but those monsters actually have similar listening distance to most high end speakers and can often be placed closer to the rear wall than say a 6-8" multiway. Front firing BR help.
Cheers
@Academia
of course no worries trying to be ironic hereandhave some fun. And type while my space button is having issues.
Yes familiar with Kendrick. Guy is a genius but not just in marketing. They do a lot. They tune the speaker Japanese, which is different from European or American, the boxes are reinforced, braced, refurbished, crossovers completely redone, here Kendricks team is actually close to Troels approach and focus on crossover, but way more crazy in crossover and wiring quality, special drivers and a few tricks. Think Kondo but for crossovers. The main thing is blancing all the flavours/parts/positivedistortions and changes to get a musical whole.
We went with a client to two setups of his. He knows how to set up the speakers in tiny rooms and is very charming and gives the JBLs this exclussivity and status symbol that they seldom have outside of Japan. Not the only reason we went but one of the highlights Cool link to the diaphrams. Thanks. I haven't checked out his stuff inawhile. Heard he had big issues with copyrighted music onYT and a lot of his stuff got taken down. Hope he got it back up or continued doing his thing.
Cheers
of course no worries trying to be ironic hereandhave some fun. And type while my space button is having issues.
Yes familiar with Kendrick. Guy is a genius but not just in marketing
. They do a lot. They tune the speaker Japanese, which is different from European or American, the boxes are reinforced, braced, refurbished, crossovers completely redone, here Kendricks team is actually close to Troels approach and focus on crossover, but way more crazy in crossover and wiring quality, special drivers and a few tricks. Think Kondo but for crossovers. The main thing is blancing all the flavours/parts/positivedistortions and changes to get a musical whole. We went with a client to two setups of his. He knows how to set up the speakers in tiny rooms and is very charming and gives the JBLs this exclussivity and status symbol that they seldom have outside of Japan. Not the only reason we went but one of the highlights
Cool link to the diaphrams. Thanks. I haven't checked out his stuff inawhile. Heard he had big issues with copyrighted music onYT and a lot of his stuff got taken down. Hope he got it back up or continued doing his thing.Cheers
tubeglow49, you say :
" Heard he had big issues with copyrighted music onYT and a lot of his stuff got taken down. Hope he got it back up or continued doing his thing."
Wow, that explains why I didn't find a video that I remembered on YT, they had given a horn a golden appearance, it was displayed without the acoustic lens ...
Thanks for all that good information!
" Troels wanted to create "The Loudspeaker" and taking the less compromise big speaker approach (although still fairly afordable) with modern highest quality PA drivers, a lot of experienc allows someone to own a system that will rival a JBL Everest without spending nearly €100K."
Do you think that with all those Kenric´s improvements and tricks you say, a vintage 4345 monitor can outperform a last generation Everest DD67000?
The materials used and the design of the speakers have evolved over so many years .......
JBL Everest DD67000 | Sarte Audio
" Heard he had big issues with copyrighted music onYT and a lot of his stuff got taken down. Hope he got it back up or continued doing his thing."
Wow, that explains why I didn't find a video that I remembered on YT, they had given a horn a golden appearance, it was displayed without the acoustic lens ...
Thanks for all that good information!
" Troels wanted to create "The Loudspeaker" and taking the less compromise big speaker approach (although still fairly afordable) with modern highest quality PA drivers, a lot of experienc allows someone to own a system that will rival a JBL Everest without spending nearly €100K."
Do you think that with all those Kenric´s improvements and tricks you say, a vintage 4345 monitor can outperform a last generation Everest DD67000?
The materials used and the design of the speakers have evolved over so many years .......
JBL Everest DD67000 | Sarte Audio
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I've designed and built enough speakers similar to TGs, but not his, that I could safely say yes. I don't own any of the audiophile brands and have the high efficiency speakers, and have for nearly 20y. I'm about to move back to my home and I'll be rebuilding all 6 speakers to make them less ugly and again they'll all be HE pro drivers. LE systems sound constipated to me. The few that I've heard that don't are stupid money.
Does that tell you enough?
Two toher points. Supertweets are a waste of money of you're over 12yo, and you can go active for less that what TG charges for his passive xover, which is insanely expensive.
@academia
A Kendrick 4345 which the client actually bought on his third trip was around 45,000€ if I remember correctly. The Everest are more than double that.
I have heard both they are quite different in style.
I personally prefer the vintage 4345 over the Everest, which is not really the best JBL IMO, especially for the price. The guys a Harman / JBL who I respect a lot, tried to make everything Ultra, but the two times I listened to a 67 Everest they seemed a tad bright and did not image well and sounded more like very good clean powered studio monitors than JBLs, well and the attack and bass, etc... Someone told me the Everests do actually need a bit more space, especially between them. Still for 100K was not that impressed, or better said it did not move me as much as I hoped.
The Kendrick JBLs similar to Kondo or a lot of the high end Japanese HIFI put a lot of care & attention into parts and how something is done, vs. design/specs and always something new. The emphasis is creating enough wanted distortions especially in the midrange, think a real Western Electric 300B, and airyness to move you emotionally and make the music as beautiful and emotionally as possible. Nosole focus on accurate and clean, but emotional beauty and intimacy is the goal. Very different from high fi that often leaves you "cold" but you can hear amazing details.
I think the best description would be the difference between a classic corvette and a modern corvette. The modern one (There were also some "dogs" in the vintage lineup so this supports the argument even more ) will technically and preformance wise blow most of the old ones away, but the classics, e.g. Stingray have something. Even if you did not grow up during that time there was a golden age feel, it transmits emotion differently. Most would say the imperfections are the perfections.
I would say Kendrick is a master of microdetail, immersion, PRAT and conveying emotion. Possibly its all psychology but probably he knows a thing or two. Funny he prefers the Mundorf Oil over Duelund caps most of the time so accuracy and a nice blend of the best of the old and good new is where it's at I would say.
They are a big step up from a vintage JBL but also cost about 10 times as much . People think newer is better but in audio the inovation is trying to overcome the compromises and sometimes a bunch of engineers come and design something that meets all the specs but can still not sound great. Thisis the art and science part.
I'll finish with the goldy from Daniel von Recklinghausen, the renowned audio engineer at EAD and KLH: “If it measures good and sounds bad, — it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, — you've measured the wrong thing.
Sometimes you can get in the way of what you are looking for with innovation and specs and good sound is much more than good measurements, but also physics is a BI@TSCH and she tends to rule supreme. Size matters
Cheers
A Kendrick 4345 which the client actually bought on his third trip was around 45,000€ if I remember correctly. The Everest are more than double that.
I have heard both they are quite different in style.
I personally prefer the vintage 4345 over the Everest, which is not really the best JBL IMO, especially for the price. The guys a Harman / JBL who I respect a lot, tried to make everything Ultra, but the two times I listened to a 67 Everest they seemed a tad bright and did not image well and sounded more like very good clean powered studio monitors than JBLs, well and the attack and bass, etc... Someone told me the Everests do actually need a bit more space, especially between them. Still for 100K was not that impressed, or better said it did not move me as much as I hoped.
The Kendrick JBLs similar to Kondo or a lot of the high end Japanese HIFI put a lot of care & attention into parts and how something is done, vs. design/specs and always something new. The emphasis is creating enough wanted distortions especially in the midrange, think a real Western Electric 300B, and airyness to move you emotionally and make the music as beautiful and emotionally as possible. Nosole focus on accurate and clean, but emotional beauty and intimacy is the goal. Very different from high fi that often leaves you "cold" but you can hear amazing details.
I think the best description would be the difference between a classic corvette and a modern corvette. The modern one (There were also some "dogs" in the vintage lineup so this supports the argument even more
) will technically and preformance wise blow most of the old ones away, but the classics, e.g. Stingray have something. Even if you did not grow up during that time there was a golden age feel, it transmits emotion differently. Most would say the imperfections are the perfections.I would say Kendrick is a master of microdetail, immersion, PRAT and conveying emotion. Possibly its all psychology but probably he knows a thing or two
. Funny he prefers the Mundorf Oil over Duelund caps most of the time so accuracy and a nice blend of the best of the old and good new is where it's at I would say. They are a big step up from a vintage JBL but also cost about 10 times as much . People think newer is better but in audio the inovation is trying to overcome the compromises and sometimes a bunch of engineers come and design something that meets all the specs but can still not sound great. Thisis the art and science part.
I'll finish with the goldy from Daniel von Recklinghausen, the renowned audio engineer at EAD and KLH: “If it measures good and sounds bad, — it is bad. If it sounds good and measures bad, — you've measured the wrong thing.
Sometimes you can get in the way of what you are looking for with innovation and specs and good sound is much more than good measurements, but also physics is a BI@TSCH and she tends to rule supreme. Size matters
Cheers