My remark was about transient and so fast it can't damage ear. This is not true.
A woodbrass ensemble playing licks can easily be 110db continous for some seconds. It damage the ear. Most professional musicians ( and technician) does have ear damage one day or another ( me included), even if you was//are careful.
That was just my point.
I don't know what you call speed.
About sd well i'm well interested in other point of views and theory so no issue about someone having different opinion or pov. The inverse in fact as it challenge things i think are acquired which is fine.
I can understand your design choice but for low end there is an important parameter which is 'acoustic impedance'. It gives you the 'effectiveness' a driver ( or a group) at a given freq. The higher the acoustic impedance the less motion will happen for a given spl level. The less motion, the less distortion. Of course the main parameter at play in it is the sd.
If that is your thing ( i can understand some people like a bit of distortion and dislike this kind of presentation) it will give an honest presentation of lowend. It may helps too with microdynamic rendering if the driver is efficient.
The thing is it is not a myth and mind you there is a whole field in the PA world which experience this everyday and for which this is well known. One of the reason they use horn loaded system too.
I don't question your experience as it is different than mine and can only push you to try to demonstrate your own intuition, either theorically or in practice and share with us your discovery.
Yes panels have large sd but they interface with the room differently. From my experience their interest come from the free of box sound and the way they interact with the room which is clearly fairly good with acoustic instruments and orchestral music if head in a wise is not an issue ( my experience of the ones i've heard).
But if this is the rendition you want ( and from your description of what you listen to it'll fit nicely) don't waste your time with direct radiator driver/ horn as they won't give you the same thing and go direct to them, it'll be more rewarding sooner.
A woodbrass ensemble playing licks can easily be 110db continous for some seconds. It damage the ear. Most professional musicians ( and technician) does have ear damage one day or another ( me included), even if you was//are careful.
That was just my point.
I don't know what you call speed.
About sd well i'm well interested in other point of views and theory so no issue about someone having different opinion or pov. The inverse in fact as it challenge things i think are acquired which is fine.
I can understand your design choice but for low end there is an important parameter which is 'acoustic impedance'. It gives you the 'effectiveness' a driver ( or a group) at a given freq. The higher the acoustic impedance the less motion will happen for a given spl level. The less motion, the less distortion. Of course the main parameter at play in it is the sd.
If that is your thing ( i can understand some people like a bit of distortion and dislike this kind of presentation) it will give an honest presentation of lowend. It may helps too with microdynamic rendering if the driver is efficient.
The thing is it is not a myth and mind you there is a whole field in the PA world which experience this everyday and for which this is well known. One of the reason they use horn loaded system too.
I don't question your experience as it is different than mine and can only push you to try to demonstrate your own intuition, either theorically or in practice and share with us your discovery.
Yes panels have large sd but they interface with the room differently. From my experience their interest come from the free of box sound and the way they interact with the room which is clearly fairly good with acoustic instruments and orchestral music if head in a wise is not an issue ( my experience of the ones i've heard).
But if this is the rendition you want ( and from your description of what you listen to it'll fit nicely) don't waste your time with direct radiator driver/ horn as they won't give you the same thing and go direct to them, it'll be more rewarding sooner.
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few seconds are not transcients that are way below the second but harmonics.
Indeed several seocnds as youi say can damage ears. We agree, just have not the same definition of what transcient is. In your illustration you highlight a little orchestra with a material that can play with loud addition of spl peaks that can be seen as a continuous program : yes it can damage ears.
I was said by some than very fast sound I call here transient with high peaks can not damage ears, but this is the sum of that during seconds, minutes that can. I have no definitive certitude with this. Stress may be higher when continuous, understand not transient. Conductors are not deaf immediately despite such a peaks... Maybe we need ear audition specialist to know more precisions
You give a good illustration of what a dangerous instrument is with his continuous high level than a trumpet can be and still with higher db preaks, quite an impressive instrument.
I would not argue on the air adaptation impedance and drivers about the rest of the post. I'm aware of it.... But then I would prefer the lower I can horn loaded woofer that are way better than direct driver even big in my experience. While not easy
Ok for the : musicians are not the best for healthy ears because the decibels indeed.
I have not made design choice, but I have constraint and I playback most of the time below 70 db average.
Indeed several seocnds as youi say can damage ears. We agree, just have not the same definition of what transcient is. In your illustration you highlight a little orchestra with a material that can play with loud addition of spl peaks that can be seen as a continuous program : yes it can damage ears.
I was said by some than very fast sound I call here transient with high peaks can not damage ears, but this is the sum of that during seconds, minutes that can. I have no definitive certitude with this. Stress may be higher when continuous, understand not transient. Conductors are not deaf immediately despite such a peaks... Maybe we need ear audition specialist to know more precisions
You give a good illustration of what a dangerous instrument is with his continuous high level than a trumpet can be and still with higher db preaks, quite an impressive instrument.
I would not argue on the air adaptation impedance and drivers about the rest of the post. I'm aware of it.
... But then I would prefer the lower I can horn loaded woofer that are way better than direct driver even big in my experience. While not easy Ok for the : musicians are not the best for healthy ears because the decibels indeed.
I have not made design choice, but I have constraint and I playback most of the time below 70 db average.
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Transients have a theorical/academic definition, this is the one i use. Yes those are mainly peaks: something in the duration of 1/2ms.
You have most information relative to the kind of instrument during this time. Hence the need to preserve them as much as possible. And to have a system which is able to track this enveloppes with accuracy.
Are transients harmless? Well it'll depend: if it's a gong on a soft track hited every 10 seconds or so. They are indeed...
If this is a snare roll during some seconds longs things start to change quickly ask to a drumer ('SAID WHAT?' ).
We had a quiproquo! We agree i think, barrier language?! Ah,ah,ah!
Ok, your last sentence is where i don't get it as for me output level is not at play in the equation.
I suppose this is because i'm used to multiamp/dsp ( or active) filtering: with this kind of architecture the system 'sound the same' whatever the spl it play ( as long as you are within the limit of spl).
So high or low spl doesn't really matter to me. You'll increase headroom playing softer ( which is a good thing in my view) and you still gain from large area direct radiators benefits in my view.
Diyiggy, have you been recently ( a joke of course) to an amplified live event ( jazz, rock,...)? Next time pay attention to background sound playead low level between sets. If correctly set up you'll find it have distinct character relative to what you'll ear with small drivers playing at same level. These is what attract me about big drivers.
I'm sure this is part of what others like too.
You have most information relative to the kind of instrument during this time. Hence the need to preserve them as much as possible. And to have a system which is able to track this enveloppes with accuracy.
Are transients harmless? Well it'll depend: if it's a gong on a soft track hited every 10 seconds or so. They are indeed...
If this is a snare roll during some seconds longs things start to change quickly ask to a drumer ('SAID WHAT?'
).We had a quiproquo! We agree i think, barrier language?! Ah,ah,ah!
Ok, your last sentence is where i don't get it as for me output level is not at play in the equation.
I suppose this is because i'm used to multiamp/dsp ( or active) filtering: with this kind of architecture the system 'sound the same' whatever the spl it play ( as long as you are within the limit of spl).
So high or low spl doesn't really matter to me. You'll increase headroom playing softer ( which is a good thing in my view) and you still gain from large area direct radiators benefits in my view.
Diyiggy, have you been recently ( a joke of course) to an amplified live event ( jazz, rock,...)? Next time pay attention to background sound playead low level between sets. If correctly set up you'll find it have distinct character relative to what you'll ear with small drivers playing at same level. These is what attract me about big drivers.
I'm sure this is part of what others like too.
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I tried but half of the musicians died so the concert aborted.... But I would pay for a Didier Squiban at Molene... the church being already there and windy enough!
We can be sure a gamelan concert or a tabla concert is not something good for the musicians, sure. If all these hitted notes are fast there are so much than the close average level is harmfull for the musicians. I dunno their average levels, but I pretty sure the Gamelan band is even more dangerous than two tablas musicians...
Sorry for all these digress guys, I'm quite interested by all these problems of bass in a room and how it is distributed in the listening room. I trust your great experience with nthose big boys.
Let's go back to the benchmark between these big loudspeakers.
... But I would pay for a Didier Squiban at Molene... the church being already there and windy enough!We can be sure a gamelan concert or a tabla concert is not something good for the musicians, sure. If all these hitted notes are fast there are so much than the close average level is harmfull for the musicians. I dunno their average levels, but I pretty sure the Gamelan band is even more dangerous than two tablas musicians...
Sorry for all these digress guys, I'm quite interested by all these problems of bass in a room and how it is distributed in the listening room. I trust your great experience with nthose big boys.
Let's go back to the benchmark between these big loudspeakers.
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Have anyone compare Troels Gravesen The Loudspeaker 1-3 to a high end speaker from B&W, Sounus faber, JBL?
Hi! At some point, the question is silly
I cannot answer as you want. But if you have a decent audio rig and a medium/big room those kind of speakers will blow your mind, especially if you value live concerts.
If you are an audiophile like guy, those are not for you
I'we listened JBL 4333A in a 4X5X2.7 meters room (small I would state) and they sound awesome (belongs to a retired recording engineer). Also I have listened, in a quite big room, the Genelec 1038B (active loudspeakers) driven by a very good valve balanced preamplifier, and the sound was 'reference' (not exactly in the audiophile stile, I would say). Genelec sounds almost perfect in every way, lacking just a hair of ultimate 'audiophile' excitement, while the JBL has more bloom/texture in bass and midbass. Both examples are big speakers, using 15" low frequency drivers, delivering outstanding dynamics. Both are intended to be studio tools - designed for mastering . I am using my own design two way 15" and a 1"+ SEOS15 waveguide (both are Beyma drivers) in a 125L cabinet, and I am more than content with it in a small room.
The Loudspeaker project is for true music lovers
we should go to the guitar shop, but with that car :
TomT, what is your point please .
?
1.To be less serious, as This isn't a life/death issue.
2. We should advance the State of the Art,
When we can.
Glad I'm not the only one who feels this way. I get grilled by other audio nazis when I speak up, disliking stuff like that. I would never own a full range speaker with rear facing drivers, especially if they're tweeters. That defeats the whole purpose of trying to obtain point source behavior and lifelike stereo imaging.
The main complaint I have regarding speaker kits is the big uncertainty of how it will actually sound in your environment with your own gear.
I haven't heard the larger WA models yet. While a part of the design is certainly form follows function it does still contain a lot of gimmikry IMO. I guess Steampunks would like the looks of the mechanical delay setup.
I have personally experimented with a tweeter on the back of my Mangers. I felt that it helped to enlarge the sweetspot. But this tweeter was reduced in level by at least 10 dB. I can't imagine that a back tweeter with the same SPL level as the fromt one would be to my likening
I think I will have to try this with my large MTMs also.
Regards
Charles
I have personally experimented with a tweeter on the back of my Mangers. I felt that it helped to enlarge the sweetspot. But this tweeter was reduced in level by at least 10 dB. I can't imagine that a back tweeter with the same SPL level as the fromt one would be to my likening
I think I will have to try this with my large MTMs also.
Regards
Charles
That falls into my most basic design considerations and has for a long, long time.
Shall we discuss about what part?
WA succeeds obviously in selling loudspeakers, but not on behalf of the least of a functional approach at the electro-acoustic part of the equation, certainly given the price. Typical high end showin' off stuff if you ask me.
Believe me, I did hold back. If you knew me IRL, then the language would have been somewhat more colourful; think Merovingian from Matrix.