Seems better IME to XO at ~300, 1800 Hz [based on polar response], put the 2nd mid on the back in bipole, rolled off just to get efficiency up, then whatever driver is appropriate for ~1800-6 kHz to cover the high mids [good place for a compression loaded waveguide] and use [multiple] ribbons for top end 'air' to the limits of the recording.......or just double up the ribbons to increase efficiency since they're rated to 1800 Hz.
Let me get this straight
Use Visaton woofers upto 300hz, then first midwoofer upto 1.8khz, then second midwoofer 1,8khz - 6khz, and ribbons for 6khz + ?
What does "put it on back" means, of midwoofer enclouser, facing inside of cabinet, or put it on the actual back of cabinet ?
Also multiple ribbons are not possible, guy only has one pair. I do have a pair of Akai Orthodynamics > LINK ApexJr Ribbon Tweeter
Yeah, late night haste makes waste.
There would be [2] mid-woofers [8NMB] 300-1800 Hz with one inline on the rear [bipole mounting], rolled off around the baffle step frequency [TBD empirically], then a true mid/high-mid driver [TBD] for the 1800-6000 Hz BW with ribbon 6000 Hz - up. These extra drivers to get efficiency up enough to keep up with the woofer.
Alternatively, skip the true mid and just run enough multiple ribbons to get excess efficiency to EQ down 3-6 dB to ensure they aren't stressed when XO'd at the min. recommended 1800 Hz.
There would be [2] mid-woofers [8NMB] 300-1800 Hz with one inline on the rear [bipole mounting], rolled off around the baffle step frequency [TBD empirically], then a true mid/high-mid driver [TBD] for the 1800-6000 Hz BW with ribbon
Alternatively, skip the true mid and just run enough multiple ribbons to get excess efficiency to EQ down 3-6 dB to ensure they aren't stressed when XO'd at the min. recommended 1800 Hz.
Alright, that makes more sense now
But i think we got a bit out of hand around here, or to say mixup. So let me review my options here, since this is important.
==================================
Option 1: I can get these right here, no problems.
Subwoofer - 2x Visaton BGS 40 // Owned
Midwoofer - 4x FaitalPRO 6FE100 - Maybe we use one pair and i can sell off second pair to regain some capital.
Ribbon - 2x HiVi Research RT2E-A
==================================
Option 2: Order/Smuggle these from my cousin who travels around EU, more hassle, but we stay more truthful to the original Design.
Subwoofer - 2x Visaton BGS 40 // Owned
Midwoofer - 2x 18 SOUND 8NMB420
Tweeter - 2x Satori TW29RN-B-8
==================================
Both will cost around the same, 350-400 eur, which leaves rest for cabinet + crossover + new amps + preamp.
I am also open for some Option 3 if someone has a better idea.
But i think we got a bit out of hand around here, or to say mixup. So let me review my options here, since this is important.
==================================
Option 1: I can get these right here, no problems.
Subwoofer - 2x Visaton BGS 40 // Owned
Midwoofer - 4x FaitalPRO 6FE100 - Maybe we use one pair and i can sell off second pair to regain some capital.
Ribbon - 2x HiVi Research RT2E-A
==================================
Option 2: Order/Smuggle these from my cousin who travels around EU, more hassle, but we stay more truthful to the original Design.
Subwoofer - 2x Visaton BGS 40 // Owned
Midwoofer - 2x 18 SOUND 8NMB420
Tweeter - 2x Satori TW29RN-B-8
==================================
Both will cost around the same, 350-400 eur, which leaves rest for cabinet + crossover + new amps + preamp.
I am also open for some Option 3 if someone has a better idea.
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OK, I admit I didn't concern myself with any but post #1, 19 since I'm not even remotely up to date on the incredible number of drivers available nowadays and even then only because WRT multi-ways, I'm only interested in > ~96 dB eff. speaker systems.
That said, my XO points are based on driver mean acoustic power distribution, impedance and polar response, so for me they're ~ 'cast in stone' if the BGS 40, 8NMB420 are used.
I'll look at the 6FE100 as time permits.
That said, my XO points are based on driver mean acoustic power distribution, impedance and polar response, so for me they're ~ 'cast in stone' if the BGS 40, 8NMB420 are used.
I'll look at the 6FE100 as time permits.
With the Visaton BGS 40 that the OP already has purchased, I feel it's better to target a net system sensitivity of just about 85-88dB/W, using downward equalisation. A single pair of midranges would be more than sufficient to get there.
Dear DrZoidberg, I just happened to notice that +/-8 mm is the excursion (damage) limit and not Xmax, as per the data given on that website. Please check again.
Dear DrZoidberg, I just happened to notice that +/-8 mm is the excursion (damage) limit and not Xmax, as per the data given on that website. Please check again.
You want to give away ~10-13 dB, when at most 'we' normally only need 3-6 dB for baffle step?! Help chosing high SPL drivers for 3way classic loudspeaker
Well, let us first see the response of the driver along with cabinet effects. It's better if it gets higher than that. I said that because now it appears to me that the driver may only have around 2mm of linear excursion, reducing the scope for EQ further. However, here is a rough box design for the woofer.
GM, how much do you suggest? 90-92 dB?
GM, how much do you suggest? 90-92 dB?
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Hi Virus,
8mm is Xmax, since coil depth is 12mm, im guessing permanent damage will begin at around 10-11mm.. not much wiggle room, but to be expected from such driver. I dont plan on driving them anywhere near the limit, i would say maybeee 50% max..
I must apologize, since my post organization, in hindsight, was poor. I should probably update first page, been long time since i dwell in forums...
One thing most people dont realize is just how limited and difficult getting parts for some countries are.. like mine. I have a choice of buying crappy SAL drivers or buying Visatons that are 50-60% markup. Then i have option to order something from another country and pay customs/transport that will easily be additional 80-150% markup increase. If i want to buy a pair of speakers that cost 200e, i will pay in end around 300+ eur... sad but true
My best bet is whatever is floating on local internet markets or getting someone to smuggle it back from EU.
Hence why i am very strict with options choice and why i cant mix those.
Since now a possibly for someone to smuggle something for me is opened, i included option 2, with original drivers from Graven's project. Excluding Faital 15" woofers, because they are too expensive for me at this moment and i already have Visatons.
Isn't Xmax calculated as (voice coil height - pole-piece height)/2, which in BG-40's case is (12mm-8mm)/2 = 2mm? Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm using the same webpage and data that you've given in post#1. Besides, the exact wording used is also "excursion limit", in place of "linear excursion".
How its calculated i have no idea tbh.
Yes, Visaton site eng translation is bit weird, Germans, what you gona do
As far as Xdmg i seen in most cases its either coil height or few mm less then coil height.
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Hmm, that graph looks very promising
What Box dimensions did you use, Graven's in original design ?
That is one massive box
Do you have exact dimensions or just any in 300 l fashion ?
Also i dont think 110 db could be matched with any driver out there.. Is it with full power on ?
At a glance, the Faital 8FE200 with its high enough eff. to only need one, flatter response in the pass band is a much better choice overall for the 300-1800 Hz BW, regardless of its non HIFI looking response, so hope it's a local option at a reasonable price.
Yes, a bigger cab gets one some more acoustic eff. ~ 1.5 octaves higher up, boost spike at tuning, but at ~377 L/36 Hz Fb max flat BR, Hornresp calcs maxing out @ ~105 dB/m/50 Hz/10W/2pi/2.5 mm Xlim, so ideally needs a lot of room gain and why I opted for a 2+ times smaller, slightly under damped cab tuned to 40 Hz that maxes out @ ~110 dB/m/60 Hz/10W/2pi/2.5 mm Xlim.
Ideally, all drivers would have at least as much efficiency as the woofer and EQ tapered as required to max out dynamic headroom @ lowest practical distortion.
Only the box volume matters, mostly. If you think it's going to get too big, you could make a less deep (thin) box with a wide baffle area to get the same volume rather easily (since you're not using horns etc).
110dB is at 20W (2mm Xmax) and a 1m distance. For doubling of distance, reduce the SPL by 6dB. I must say that this is what the software (WINISD) shows and is subject to the accuracy of the driver parameters. DrZoidberg, I suggest you download something similar (if you haven't) so that you could try different ideas before doing anything.
Hi Jorn, thx, i will try to dig it from internet somewhere, if i find something il post it here.
I was indeed looking at 8FE200, but, nowhere to be found locally, i even called some people who regularly sell stuff online, no luck
At this point i will abandon that Option 1, as if i chose to go with it, i will just hate myself, as its not as high spl as it could be, and i bought it just because :/
On another note, i will travel to Austria on business trip in two weeks, and i will try to see if its possible to order them and delivered to hotel or something, or just ask my friend to bring them here. Both options open a choice of any mayor EU speaker seller.
Which leaves us with, what should i look for in terms of Midwoofers / Tweeters ? Should i go with Gravel's recommended models ?
Or do you maybe have some better drivers in mind (as long as they are similarly priced, remember im willing to fork upto 400 eur (~480usd) for both of them. If we go with 300 l box tuned as Virus simulated it and Jorn said its possible in real world, ~95db @ 30hz
Also one more question, if we chose now mid/high drivers, could you help me with XO ? If possible i would like to get some better parts like Jensen Audio caps, maybe try to see what brands are available locally, coils i can source locally aswell as resistors.
I know im a pain in ***, but i have nowhere to go for advice and help, my long term friend who introduced me to world of hifi, a lovely human being and excellent engineer passed away last year and im left to figure out this alone and god knows i have no knowledge like you guys
I plan to document entire process of making all of this and post it here to share with you guys.
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