Hi folks,
I've seen the Gale speakers 3010s and 3020
( http://www.gale.co.uk/loudspeakers.html )
and they seemed to do the job for kitchen speakers at US$80 each.
However, being a DIY'er, I thought it would be possible to do something yourself, and have the fun of it, too!
The main criteria is: small and cheap. Second is the sound.
I'm new to speakers, but with the aspects provided above, I figure it shouldn't get too complicated!?
Any suggestions?
Jennice
I've seen the Gale speakers 3010s and 3020
( http://www.gale.co.uk/loudspeakers.html )
and they seemed to do the job for kitchen speakers at US$80 each.
However, being a DIY'er, I thought it would be possible to do something yourself, and have the fun of it, too!
The main criteria is: small and cheap. Second is the sound.
I'm new to speakers, but with the aspects provided above, I figure it shouldn't get too complicated!?
Any suggestions?
Jennice
Does not get much cheap, smaller, and simpler than this:
Tangband speaker project
And apart from bass I imagine they sound pretty good.
Joe
Tangband speaker project
And apart from bass I imagine they sound pretty good.
Joe
You might also try the slightly larger four inch.
A project is part of this forum at:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28355
Better bass, small size, low cost, and good sound. No imagination required.
Mark
A project is part of this forum at:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28355
Better bass, small size, low cost, and good sound. No imagination required.
Mark
I have excellent experience with with Visaton FRS8 in a sealed 1,3 litre box. Not much bass (surprise, surprise!), but what is there, is OK, especially if you can (want?) use some bass boost. Extremely listenable, after a short break in.
The best part is the price, as opposed to the TBands, which are outrageously expensive in Europe (well, at lest compared to Canada or US).
Andrej
The best part is the price, as opposed to the TBands, which are outrageously expensive in Europe (well, at lest compared to Canada or US).
Andrej
Visaton FR10 4 Ohm, 2 br pipes 16mm internal dia 7cm long in a 20*20*11.8cm box with 12 mm wall (2,96 liters)
No filter required if your source can do a little equalizing, else a simple notch is preferred
I paid less than 7€ for the speakers(each) from a local supplier and they sound very good
No filter required if your source can do a little equalizing, else a simple notch is preferred
I paid less than 7€ for the speakers(each) from a local supplier and they sound very good
Sorry for the late reply
The fronts are 13 mm hardwood (brazilian cabawara) The rest is 12 mm meranti multiplex with 12 mm cabawara edges, three braces make the box pritty stiff and relatively uncolored.
As I was not too sure about the performance of the FR10 the box is designed such (including BR pipe size) that a monacor SPH100KEP as woofer would also fit. A tweeter would be needed than and both Monacor DT28 and Seas KTN25 would fit. For the monacor there is just enough room between the BR pipes. The seas fits easily. A crossover filter would than be necessary. the idea was to try a natural roll of for the woofer at approx 10-12k and filter the tweeter only with a film type condensator.
It never came to that as I was pleasantly surprised by the FR10 although I realise that the yellow kevlar cone and phase plug of the SPH100KEP would look much cooler.
Make sure to use the 4 ohm version of the FR10. The 8 ohm version has significantly different T/S parameters and doesn't like BR in small boxes without tall humps
The fronts are 13 mm hardwood (brazilian cabawara) The rest is 12 mm meranti multiplex with 12 mm cabawara edges, three braces make the box pritty stiff and relatively uncolored.
As I was not too sure about the performance of the FR10 the box is designed such (including BR pipe size) that a monacor SPH100KEP as woofer would also fit. A tweeter would be needed than and both Monacor DT28 and Seas KTN25 would fit. For the monacor there is just enough room between the BR pipes. The seas fits easily. A crossover filter would than be necessary. the idea was to try a natural roll of for the woofer at approx 10-12k and filter the tweeter only with a film type condensator.
It never came to that as I was pleasantly surprised by the FR10 although I realise that the yellow kevlar cone and phase plug of the SPH100KEP would look much cooler.
Make sure to use the 4 ohm version of the FR10. The 8 ohm version has significantly different T/S parameters and doesn't like BR in small boxes without tall humps
I've given it some thought what you said about the 8 ohm version.
Do you have any idea how to calculate the filters and enclosure, if I took 2 pieces of 4 ohm drivers and connected in series to have a bigger membrane surface? They'd play in a 30m2 room, and I'm afraid I wouldn't get much sound out of a single driver. WinISD can do the cabinet, but what about the filter?
Also, do you know about free software for a 3way filter?
Jennice
Do you have any idea how to calculate the filters and enclosure, if I took 2 pieces of 4 ohm drivers and connected in series to have a bigger membrane surface? They'd play in a 30m2 room, and I'm afraid I wouldn't get much sound out of a single driver. WinISD can do the cabinet, but what about the filter?
Also, do you know about free software for a 3way filter?
Jennice
For 30m2 I would choose another speaker. The suggestion for the FR10 was based on small and cheap in the topic heading and for small rooms where you need small speakers for a low price these ones are hard to beat. (i tried moddeling tangbands but they don't like small BR boxes at this size) The idea was to do witout subwoofer and these go pretty low for such small boxes (look at the curve in winisd)
You could use two FR10 in a box twice the size or even a bit larger with no filter I do not know how that would work out as I didn't try this. Some people are font of speaker arrays (a number of the same speakers in line) but I have no experience in that area. Maybe an experienced array DIY er can comment on pro's and con's of array's
If youre willing to go as large as 5-6 liters there are much better options. They come at a price however. The speaker in my avatar is 5 liters net. The size is just below 30cm high, 27 cm deep and 15,8 cm wide. they are real beauties and Woofer is an Peerless HDS134 combined wit a vifa ringradiator XT300ks4. The wilter is external.
Currently I'm designing an approx 5 liter box with a Monacor SPH135KEP and seas KTN25.
Both the 5 Liter boxes play (will play) very good in a living room as main system although they are combined with a quality subwoofer.
But you're playing in another leaqe than, both pricewise and soundwise
You could use two FR10 in a box twice the size or even a bit larger with no filter I do not know how that would work out as I didn't try this. Some people are font of speaker arrays (a number of the same speakers in line) but I have no experience in that area. Maybe an experienced array DIY er can comment on pro's and con's of array's
If youre willing to go as large as 5-6 liters there are much better options. They come at a price however. The speaker in my avatar is 5 liters net. The size is just below 30cm high, 27 cm deep and 15,8 cm wide. they are real beauties and Woofer is an Peerless HDS134 combined wit a vifa ringradiator XT300ks4. The wilter is external.
Currently I'm designing an approx 5 liter box with a Monacor SPH135KEP and seas KTN25.
Both the 5 Liter boxes play (will play) very good in a living room as main system although they are combined with a quality subwoofer.
But you're playing in another leaqe than, both pricewise and soundwise
new to this side of diy so dont' crush me realistic 7's?
Ok, so if i dont have a woodshop to create these marvels(u guys seem to think bose are junk, in which i agree)
My thought was to buy some used Realistic minimus 7s(metal version)
now my question is, the tweeter in unit isn't explained, it looks similar, if not a clone to the infinity polycell
before i get shredded here, i must say this about the 4 inch bass driver in the minimus 7, it is outstanding on lower range, i have used the bare drivers in a ghetto creation using some plastic angeled food containers-this was just for bass, and the sound was amazing in my truck.
(mostly rock and rap is my music of choice)
any comments on these japanese made speakers, and any suggestions, if they can be retro'd with some high end drivers
thanks
(current pc setup has the klipsch ultra 5.1s)
(current home theatre setup is old KLH-3ways late 70s vintage, but badly needed to replaced, sub-5channel setup)
Ok, so if i dont have a woodshop to create these marvels(u guys seem to think bose are junk, in which i agree)
My thought was to buy some used Realistic minimus 7s(metal version)
now my question is, the tweeter in unit isn't explained, it looks similar, if not a clone to the infinity polycell
before i get shredded here, i must say this about the 4 inch bass driver in the minimus 7, it is outstanding on lower range, i have used the bare drivers in a ghetto creation using some plastic angeled food containers-this was just for bass, and the sound was amazing in my truck.
(mostly rock and rap is my music of choice)
any comments on these japanese made speakers, and any suggestions, if they can be retro'd with some high end drivers
thanks
(current pc setup has the klipsch ultra 5.1s)
(current home theatre setup is old KLH-3ways late 70s vintage, but badly needed to replaced, sub-5channel setup)
indoubt said:
Indoubt,
I quess you're right. Those darn laws of physics are against me!
Your suggestion above, using bigger boxes, sounds like a plan, but that would also mean a three-way X-over.
WinISD won't do that. Do you know of (free?) software capable of that? Alternatively, I should make a LP filter for the sub-driver, a HP for the tweeter, but I'd still lack something for band-pass calculations...
Aany suggestions on which type of sub would fit the setup? I currently have the old B&W 603's with a mid/sub and a dedicated sub, giving the area of 8" times 2 drivers for bass. I don't like to go much lower than that if I'm on to 3-way anyhow.
I know the project is changing aspect, but that just may be neccessary.
Jennice
"quote
I know the project is changing aspect
quote end
Ÿep, seems so, but I'm not sure in what direction. Looks like the small, below 3 liter, cheapies are out of the window.
I suggest a little bit bigger and you start talking(writing) three way. There is a lot in between those two options
There might be a programm that can calculate three way filters but unless you know perfectly what you are doing designing a three way filter is a no no for beginners. You might try if you are either overly optimistic or dedicated to spent a lot of effort (or both)
Did I understand correctly that the new system is to replace B&W DM603 and a sub with a dual 8" woofer?
Maybe you should re-define what you are looking for. What are you missing in your current setup because your opening post seemed to indicate that quality of the sound is second. Are the B&W's to be replaced and if yes are there size constraints to the new speakers? Are there budget constraints? Does the sub need to go or is it necessary to replace?
If you're going three way: take a proven design (might also be wise if going two way.)
There are nice small DIY subs that can complement little stand mount speakers if the speakers need to be high on WAF. If it is for playing real music in a 30m2 room than i would choose a woofer of at least 5,25 inch (130mm)
There are a lot of options but you first need to define what is acceptable for you and what you want to accomplish
I know the project is changing aspect
quote end
Ÿep, seems so, but I'm not sure in what direction. Looks like the small, below 3 liter, cheapies are out of the window.
I suggest a little bit bigger and you start talking(writing) three way. There is a lot in between those two options
There might be a programm that can calculate three way filters but unless you know perfectly what you are doing designing a three way filter is a no no for beginners. You might try if you are either overly optimistic or dedicated to spent a lot of effort (or both)
Did I understand correctly that the new system is to replace B&W DM603 and a sub with a dual 8" woofer?
Maybe you should re-define what you are looking for. What are you missing in your current setup because your opening post seemed to indicate that quality of the sound is second. Are the B&W's to be replaced and if yes are there size constraints to the new speakers? Are there budget constraints? Does the sub need to go or is it necessary to replace?
If you're going three way: take a proven design (might also be wise if going two way.)
There are nice small DIY subs that can complement little stand mount speakers if the speakers need to be high on WAF. If it is for playing real music in a 30m2 room than i would choose a woofer of at least 5,25 inch (130mm)
There are a lot of options but you first need to define what is acceptable for you and what you want to accomplish
big or beautiful ?
Well,
I think I originally wanted to see how far I could come on a budget model.
The speakers are not going to replace the 603's, but for my brother who's looking for two sets of speaker alternatives.
I now know that there are some very decent options for the small and W.A.F. "compatible" speakers.
However, he's a bit of a bass-nut (he doesn't want the orchestra to whisper quietly ) and he likes my 603's. Thus, I was thinking of something in that direction, too, as a more musical alternative with a lower WAF. Then he'll have the battle with his g/f - not me.
The 603's have 2 8" woofers each (it's one of these 2.5 way things), and I don't think I want to go much smaller than that. Would you say it's realistic to find two 8" drivers to mate with a tweeter, DIY-style?
Somehow I like the idea of a seperate sub on behalf of my brother (the dredful WAF thing!) but unless there's a seperate filter, aren't you going to have the mid-driver trying to play deep bass also? I know that the sub will only play deep bass, but unless there's a HP (or band-pass) filter for the mid, there's nothing to stop it from being destroyed by X-max and power in low frequencies...
Jennice
Well,
I think I originally wanted to see how far I could come on a budget model.
The speakers are not going to replace the 603's, but for my brother who's looking for two sets of speaker alternatives.
I now know that there are some very decent options for the small and W.A.F. "compatible" speakers.
However, he's a bit of a bass-nut (he doesn't want the orchestra to whisper quietly
) and he likes my 603's. Thus, I was thinking of something in that direction, too, as a more musical alternative with a lower WAF. Then he'll have the battle with his g/f - not me. The 603's have 2 8" woofers each (it's one of these 2.5 way things), and I don't think I want to go much smaller than that. Would you say it's realistic to find two 8" drivers to mate with a tweeter, DIY-style?
Somehow I like the idea of a seperate sub on behalf of my brother (the dredful WAF thing!) but unless there's a seperate filter, aren't you going to have the mid-driver trying to play deep bass also? I know that the sub will only play deep bass, but unless there's a HP (or band-pass) filter for the mid, there's nothing to stop it from being destroyed by X-max and power in low frequencies...
Jennice
Ok, that's more clear.
The B&W 603 have two different 6,5" units, the're not 8" units. The current S3 version plays down to 44Hz (-3db point) which is not astonishing low. Does'nt mean you do not get good bas out of them (lowest note on a 4 string basguitar is ussually 40hz) but you'll miss the lowest note on a pipe organ(but hardly any speaker can do that)
First of all, I'm not an authority on speakerbuilding (yeah, now I tell you) but I've built my share so far. There will be people that are more knowledgable, especially in the design of filters(which is my weak point)
Bassically you have two options(if you want to keep thing simple):
- Floor standers, preferably something like the 2,5 way B&W 603, good 2 way will also do.
- Relatively small stand mount speakers supported by an active sub.
The floorstanders need to be large enough to supply sufficient bass. Even in floor standers there are a lot of options but for a first project I would stick to a bassreflex designand preferably a well proven one. The advantage of well proven is that you don't have to go through the hassle of measurement and tweaking the filter until finally right. You also need access to measuring equipment if you do. In general a well build floorstander should be a litlle easier on bass integration than the sub-monitor option.
The choice which one depends strongly on budget, acceptable size and and how critical the listener is. Good examples are Seas EX4 (http://www.intertechnik.de/) a proac 2,5 clone (you'l find post regarding those on this forum) A scan speak optimo or something designed by tony gee (Geenius)(humble homemade hif, site is currently down)
The option with the stand mount monitors and subs will give you a little more flexibility and, depending on choise, deeper bass.
The integration of the sub with the monitors will require a little more work like placement of the sub, phase integration and crossover adjustment. The sub needs is own integrated amp. This enables the phase adjustment, crossover will be integrated in the amp an volume adjustment of the subwoofer.
IMHO for critical listening the monitors need to have at least a 130mm woofer and cabinets need to be at least 5 liters. Such speaker will probably go down to 70Hz and enables good integration with the sub. If you cross over a sub to high the advantage of having one sub dissapears and you would need two (which you probably don't want)
Freedom of choice is even larger here. You can opt for a small 20 liter sub with an 8"woofer or you can go for a 12 inch (or larger) in a 100 liter plus cabinet (and anything in between) It all depends on your requirements. For the monitors you can pick sizes from 5 to 15 liters.
Monitor examples: Seas EX1, Scan speak reference A4, Geenius DD8, Geenius Hatt MKiii, Vifa (the one with the PL14) or the speaker in my avatar
And there is plenty more out there.
Next thing is to pin down what you really like, pin down what you want to spent and with what WAF you can get away with.
The B&W 603 have two different 6,5" units, the're not 8" units. The current S3 version plays down to 44Hz (-3db point) which is not astonishing low. Does'nt mean you do not get good bas out of them (lowest note on a 4 string basguitar is ussually 40hz) but you'll miss the lowest note on a pipe organ(but hardly any speaker can do that)
First of all, I'm not an authority on speakerbuilding (yeah, now I tell you) but I've built my share so far. There will be people that are more knowledgable, especially in the design of filters(which is my weak point)
Bassically you have two options(if you want to keep thing simple):
- Floor standers, preferably something like the 2,5 way B&W 603, good 2 way will also do.
- Relatively small stand mount speakers supported by an active sub.
The floorstanders need to be large enough to supply sufficient bass. Even in floor standers there are a lot of options but for a first project I would stick to a bassreflex designand preferably a well proven one. The advantage of well proven is that you don't have to go through the hassle of measurement and tweaking the filter until finally right. You also need access to measuring equipment if you do. In general a well build floorstander should be a litlle easier on bass integration than the sub-monitor option.
The choice which one depends strongly on budget, acceptable size and and how critical the listener is. Good examples are Seas EX4 (http://www.intertechnik.de/) a proac 2,5 clone (you'l find post regarding those on this forum) A scan speak optimo or something designed by tony gee (Geenius)(humble homemade hif, site is currently down)
The option with the stand mount monitors and subs will give you a little more flexibility and, depending on choise, deeper bass.
The integration of the sub with the monitors will require a little more work like placement of the sub, phase integration and crossover adjustment. The sub needs is own integrated amp. This enables the phase adjustment, crossover will be integrated in the amp an volume adjustment of the subwoofer.
IMHO for critical listening the monitors need to have at least a 130mm woofer and cabinets need to be at least 5 liters. Such speaker will probably go down to 70Hz and enables good integration with the sub. If you cross over a sub to high the advantage of having one sub dissapears and you would need two (which you probably don't want)
Freedom of choice is even larger here. You can opt for a small 20 liter sub with an 8"woofer or you can go for a 12 inch (or larger) in a 100 liter plus cabinet (and anything in between) It all depends on your requirements. For the monitors you can pick sizes from 5 to 15 liters.
Monitor examples: Seas EX1, Scan speak reference A4, Geenius DD8, Geenius Hatt MKiii, Vifa (the one with the PL14) or the speaker in my avatar
And there is plenty more out there.
Next thing is to pin down what you really like, pin down what you want to spent and with what WAF you can get away with.
Hmm.....
Indoubt, You just gave me an idea!
A slightly develish plan, mut It just might work...
You see... originally, I made my power amplifier to fit the analogue surround format. Thus, the power-amp has 4 identical channels. (Since the rear speakers of analogue surround were sharing the same mono signal).
I therefore have 4 channels, 2 of which are doing nothing today.
I found some info on the Peerless "SDS164" and "HDS 164" 6 inch drivers. The HDS looks like a cool unit!
Here's the plan...:
What if I got myself 4 of these drivers, and connected 2 in parallel for each side. If I can't find other means, I'd just make two identical cabinets for each driver (port calculations etc.)
I would then also find a tweeter to go along (obviously).
It would be hooked directly to each of the four amplifier channels, and then make a (simpler to do) line signal filter with some op-amps. This way, level matching would be as simple as changing a few resistors.
Have I gone totally off the deep end and ready for the mad-house, or could this work? Sort of bi-amping, but differently.
Only detail is, that I would then have to pwersuade my brother to give a fair price for my 603's
Jennice
Indoubt, You just gave me an idea!
A slightly develish plan, mut It just might work...
You see... originally, I made my power amplifier to fit the analogue surround format. Thus, the power-amp has 4 identical channels. (Since the rear speakers of analogue surround were sharing the same mono signal).
I therefore have 4 channels, 2 of which are doing nothing today.
I found some info on the Peerless "SDS164" and "HDS 164" 6 inch drivers. The HDS looks like a cool unit!
Here's the plan...:
What if I got myself 4 of these drivers, and connected 2 in parallel for each side. If I can't find other means, I'd just make two identical cabinets for each driver (port calculations etc.)
I would then also find a tweeter to go along (obviously).
It would be hooked directly to each of the four amplifier channels, and then make a (simpler to do) line signal filter with some op-amps. This way, level matching would be as simple as changing a few resistors.
Have I gone totally off the deep end and ready for the mad-house, or could this work? Sort of bi-amping, but differently.
Only detail is, that I would then have to pwersuade my brother to give a fair price for my 603's
Jennice
Look at this
http://home.zonnet.nl/chiararomee/diy/indexeng.htm
Look at "model protheus"
It is not entirely floorstanding but I think, if necessary it could be converted. It is based on the Protheus of Tony Gee which uses other units (which is inspired by the wilson audio cub, again with different units)
The protheus seems to be a very refined and detailed loudspeaker and would be an excelent choise. It is often used with very refined tube amps and has a relitively high sensitivity so there is no need for big watts amplifiers.
It would take care of cabinet design and filter design. Hooking it directly to the amp without filtering doesn't seem a good idea. There are hardly any bas/midbas units that do not have cone break-up in the upper mid range and you need to filter them before that happens.
of course there are others as well.
btw: under "listenday" you'll find a fotoshoot from an experiment trying to establish the current state of the art for DIY building small monitors. (i.e. have good sound and WAF too)
http://home.zonnet.nl/chiararomee/diy/indexeng.htm
Look at "model protheus"
It is not entirely floorstanding but I think, if necessary it could be converted. It is based on the Protheus of Tony Gee which uses other units (which is inspired by the wilson audio cub, again with different units)
The protheus seems to be a very refined and detailed loudspeaker and would be an excelent choise. It is often used with very refined tube amps and has a relitively high sensitivity so there is no need for big watts amplifiers.
It would take care of cabinet design and filter design. Hooking it directly to the amp without filtering doesn't seem a good idea. There are hardly any bas/midbas units that do not have cone break-up in the upper mid range and you need to filter them before that happens.
of course there are others as well.
btw: under "listenday" you'll find a fotoshoot from an experiment trying to establish the current state of the art for DIY building small monitors. (i.e. have good sound and WAF too)
Maybe my description was too complicated (just 10000 thoughts in my head these days )
My thouight was to make some line-level filters (after the pre-amp) to split the signal into Highpass and Low-pass.
The high-pass would be for either a tweeter only, or a simple 2-way design with tweeter/mid. The Low-pass filter would be ...well.. for low frequencies sent to whatever driver I could find for the low frequencies.
This way, I would not have any drivers operating at critical frequencies. I would have a short power signal path, as there would be no (or few) inductors and capacitors in the signal path after the power-amp.
---
I looked at the link you gave me. An interesting design, but it seems to have rather complex bass-reflex port construction. Then again, I could just let me be inspired by something like this in terms of drivers and filters.
--
Let me tell you... it's really nice to have someone to share this kind of ideas with. My g/f has accepted most ideas (she thinks I'm crazy, but to no harm
). As long as she doesn't have to hear me talking about the plans/ideas, and can have something to put some flowers on (the top of the speaker), she's happy enough! I guess that makes me priviledged compared to many others, in terms of WAF-factors, right?
Jennice
)My thouight was to make some line-level filters (after the pre-amp) to split the signal into Highpass and Low-pass.
The high-pass would be for either a tweeter only, or a simple 2-way design with tweeter/mid. The Low-pass filter would be ...well.. for low frequencies sent to whatever driver I could find for the low frequencies.
This way, I would not have any drivers operating at critical frequencies. I would have a short power signal path, as there would be no (or few) inductors and capacitors in the signal path after the power-amp.
---
I looked at the link you gave me. An interesting design, but it seems to have rather complex bass-reflex port construction. Then again, I could just let me be inspired by something like this in terms of drivers and filters.
--
Let me tell you... it's really nice to have someone to share this kind of ideas with. My g/f has accepted most ideas (she thinks I'm crazy, but to no harm
). As long as she doesn't have to hear me talking about the plans/ideas, and can have something to put some flowers on (the top of the speaker), she's happy enough! I guess that makes me priviledged compared to many others, in terms of WAF-factors, right?Jennice
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