Does anyone have a FR plot of the 3" Vifa Scan Speak dome with an appropriately sized rear chamber on it? All of the published graphs are without a chamber and that doesn't show the full low end rolloff potential to incorporate into the xover design.
I'm planning a 4 way mid field monitor build with these drivers.
Woofer - SB 34NRXL75 up to 200 Hz
Low mid - B&C 8NDL51 200 to 900 Hz
Midrange - Vifa D75MX41 900 to 3500 Hz
Tweeter - Seas T35C002 3500 Hz and up
The crossover planned is fully passive 2nd order LR slopes (if i can get away with it) and the option of biamping LF section separately from the low mid with either passive or active filtering. I could have built a 3 way with a better mid driver, but I need 110dB capability (mostly for tracking drums) with low total HD across the whole bandwidth and the D75 mid dome won't cope with sub 900 Hz xover and still play loud enough due to limited xmax.
I didn't have access to the Volt 752 dome or better yet the big ATC, both of which would have been my first and second choices. I've heard the 3 inch Vifa SS dome in other designs and like it alot if run above 900 - 1000 Hz. It can play very loud and clean as long as its not pushed too low. I have 2 pairs of them in case I decide to do a 2.5 way MTM to get more low end and help with BSC while trying to keep up with the midbass section. I'm aiming for -6 dB power response from 100 Hz - 10 kHz which sounds the most natural to my ears.
The tweeter choice was after hearing the shear dynamic capability and low HD of the large T35 Seas dome, even without a waveguide (which I still may use). It has ample HF extension on its own, especially with some passive filtering EQ tricks and it will live a long life crossed over at 3.5k 2nd order LR. I really love the way these large domes sound in general. Im not a fan of most cone mid drivers mainly due to HF cone break up plus the way they beam at higher frequencies. That doesn't mix well with the driver it needs to mate up with and hurts power response as well. I was tempted by the big Beyma TPL150, but it sounds too aggressive in the lower mids to my ears, plus the limited vertical dispersion kills it for me.
Im open to suggestions. If anyone has some constructive input I'd really welcome it.
I'm planning a 4 way mid field monitor build with these drivers.
Woofer - SB 34NRXL75 up to 200 Hz
Low mid - B&C 8NDL51 200 to 900 Hz
Midrange - Vifa D75MX41 900 to 3500 Hz
Tweeter - Seas T35C002 3500 Hz and up
The crossover planned is fully passive 2nd order LR slopes (if i can get away with it) and the option of biamping LF section separately from the low mid with either passive or active filtering. I could have built a 3 way with a better mid driver, but I need 110dB capability (mostly for tracking drums) with low total HD across the whole bandwidth and the D75 mid dome won't cope with sub 900 Hz xover and still play loud enough due to limited xmax.
I didn't have access to the Volt 752 dome or better yet the big ATC, both of which would have been my first and second choices. I've heard the 3 inch Vifa SS dome in other designs and like it alot if run above 900 - 1000 Hz. It can play very loud and clean as long as its not pushed too low. I have 2 pairs of them in case I decide to do a 2.5 way MTM to get more low end and help with BSC while trying to keep up with the midbass section. I'm aiming for -6 dB power response from 100 Hz - 10 kHz which sounds the most natural to my ears.
The tweeter choice was after hearing the shear dynamic capability and low HD of the large T35 Seas dome, even without a waveguide (which I still may use). It has ample HF extension on its own, especially with some passive filtering EQ tricks and it will live a long life crossed over at 3.5k 2nd order LR. I really love the way these large domes sound in general. Im not a fan of most cone mid drivers mainly due to HF cone break up plus the way they beam at higher frequencies. That doesn't mix well with the driver it needs to mate up with and hurts power response as well. I was tempted by the big Beyma TPL150, but it sounds too aggressive in the lower mids to my ears, plus the limited vertical dispersion kills it for me.
Im open to suggestions. If anyone has some constructive input I'd really welcome it.
Profiguy, I don't have the info you request but I find your system interesting. I am also running a 4 way system.
It has a SB34NRX75-6 12" Woofer driven by a Hafler XL600 to 350 Hz
An Eton 6.5" mid woofer from 350 Hz to 1400Hz driven by a Hafler P5000
2 Morel EM1308 2" dome midranges (per channel) from 1400HZ to 3600Hz driven by another P5000.
A pair of SB Acoustics SB29RDNC-C000-4 Neo Magnet, Dome Tweeters (perchannel) from 3600Hz on up. Driven by a Hafler DH220.
Using a pair of DBX active crossovers 24DB/octave.
I am very interested in how you like those Vifa dome midranges.
I see that SB Acoustics is making a dome midrange now and I'm thinking about giving those a try.
It has a SB34NRX75-6 12" Woofer driven by a Hafler XL600 to 350 Hz
An Eton 6.5" mid woofer from 350 Hz to 1400Hz driven by a Hafler P5000
2 Morel EM1308 2" dome midranges (per channel) from 1400HZ to 3600Hz driven by another P5000.
A pair of SB Acoustics SB29RDNC-C000-4 Neo Magnet, Dome Tweeters (perchannel) from 3600Hz on up. Driven by a Hafler DH220.
Using a pair of DBX active crossovers 24DB/octave.
I am very interested in how you like those Vifa dome midranges.
I see that SB Acoustics is making a dome midrange now and I'm thinking about giving those a try.
Should be easy enough to put the data into a program and experiment with different box sizes, with a Vas of only 0.36 litres but a Qts of 1.73 it needs a big enclosure, Even a 5 litre box seems to give a Qtc response with a big knee at around 350 Hz when put thru Jeff Bagbys program
Given what more experienced people have told me about a different dome midrange I think you would need a trap at 300Hz as part of the XO design
Given what more experienced people have told me about a different dome midrange I think you would need a trap at 300Hz as part of the XO design
Thanks for the info Moondog. I could have imported the TS data but I get conflicting results when I measure it in Clio and Larson Woofer tester. Qms tends to be all over the place, even after break in and tends to be very temp dependent. I also have a set of cat558 Morels which aren't too bad, however the THD under 1.3k tends to be a little high for my needs.
The D75 mid dome has a very open sound to my ears and comes across very musical in nature when pushed reasonably harder within it's xmax limits. PMC uses a version of this mid in their 3 way systems and I can attest they sound great in that arrangement. This mid can cope with alot of SPL but it doesn't do well under 1k, so it needs a steep filter in that area if you want to get the best from it.
I was planning on trying a critically damped chamber to bring down Qms a bit without hurting sensitivity just under 800-900 Hz. To aid the xover I want to apply an LCR to flatten the resonance so i can get away with a 2nd order LR HP around 1k. I don't want to use any DSP and plan on keeping the xover passive. A 2.5 way MTM with 2 pairs of mids may be the answer to my dilemma. I could push the 8ndl51 a bit higher, but it starts getting into cone breakup and that main surround resonance kink, both of which I'm trying to avoid. Its a delicate balance having the cone surface area to play loud but stay within the driver's linear operating range. The B&C 8" is a great midbass driver. It has a fiberglass former and copper VC, so it can deal with alot of power without compressing much and at very low THD. 110dB above 150 Hz is a walk in the park for this driver.
The D75 mid dome has a very open sound to my ears and comes across very musical in nature when pushed reasonably harder within it's xmax limits. PMC uses a version of this mid in their 3 way systems and I can attest they sound great in that arrangement. This mid can cope with alot of SPL but it doesn't do well under 1k, so it needs a steep filter in that area if you want to get the best from it.
I was planning on trying a critically damped chamber to bring down Qms a bit without hurting sensitivity just under 800-900 Hz. To aid the xover I want to apply an LCR to flatten the resonance so i can get away with a 2nd order LR HP around 1k. I don't want to use any DSP and plan on keeping the xover passive. A 2.5 way MTM with 2 pairs of mids may be the answer to my dilemma. I could push the 8ndl51 a bit higher, but it starts getting into cone breakup and that main surround resonance kink, both of which I'm trying to avoid. Its a delicate balance having the cone surface area to play loud but stay within the driver's linear operating range. The B&C 8" is a great midbass driver. It has a fiberglass former and copper VC, so it can deal with alot of power without compressing much and at very low THD. 110dB above 150 Hz is a walk in the park for this driver.
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The big Vifa domes are great if you use them within their limitations. They are not as good as the ATC or Volt 3" dome, but they come very close if you don't compare the sub-1k performance. The morels are good, but they tend to color the upper mids more for my ears. I used the MDM55, CAM558 and EM1308 and they all sound very similar to me with the EM1308 having a slight edge. The big face plate is hard to deal with, making it hard to position it close to a tweeter.
How do you like that SB woofer? Sealed or ported box?
I chose the 34NRXL75-8 because of efficiency to match the rest of the drivers and it plays very clean into the lower mid bass. I plan on using it in a sealed cab at .6 Qts which allows me to extend the response with active filtering. The main 4 ways will run biamped off 2 Parasound A21 amps. I have another pair of SB 34N4X75-6 woofers for 2 subs with class D Speaker Power SP1-700 plate amps, also in sealed boxes. I'm not a fan of ported enclosures, mainly because the low end sounds slow and less controlled to me, plus they're also hard to integrate properly with subwoofers due to the unpredictable phase delay around the box tuning frequency.
I'm not sure about the Morel EM1308 yet. It seems it might be giving me some cone breakup. I will probably pull the amp out and measure the crossover distortion on it before trying new dome mids (SB Acoustics).
The SB Acoustics drivers I have tried have all been very good though.
I really like the SB woofer. I chose it because it's parameters enabled a sealed box and it goes deep. I am partial to acoustic suspension woofers and I think you and I are on the same page here. From what I have seen ported speakers tend to have higher distortion levels and a colored response curve and sound sloppy. I have the woofer in an enclosure that is over-sized. I plan on experimenting with gradually filling the internal cabinet space with dimensional lumber, closing it back up and measuring the response and relative distortion levels until I find the sweet spot. Then cut the cabinet down to that internal volume. Empirical testing instead of theoretical.
I'm very interested in finding out what you end up with on those Vifa domes.
The SB Acoustics drivers I have tried have all been very good though.
I really like the SB woofer. I chose it because it's parameters enabled a sealed box and it goes deep. I am partial to acoustic suspension woofers and I think you and I are on the same page here. From what I have seen ported speakers tend to have higher distortion levels and a colored response curve and sound sloppy. I have the woofer in an enclosure that is over-sized. I plan on experimenting with gradually filling the internal cabinet space with dimensional lumber, closing it back up and measuring the response and relative distortion levels until I find the sweet spot. Then cut the cabinet down to that internal volume. Empirical testing instead of theoretical.
I'm very interested in finding out what you end up with on those Vifa domes.
Yes, acoustic suspension cabs are how you get accurate low end that can be adapted much easier to the listening environment. Air is going to be more linear than any form of mechanical driver suspension. Don't get me wrong, a decent QB3 vented alignment can sound great, but it never reaches the realism of a sealed box, preferably under .65 Qtc. That SB woofer is a fantastic sealed box driver and it really shows in the TS parameters, plus it doesn't fall on its face playing up into the lower mids like alot of other large drivers. Have you ever played with aperiodic damping (variovent) or like an older A25 setup?
Stay tuned on the big Vifa domes. Hopefully it will work out in my favor.
The distortion you mentioned on the EM1308 dome could be attributed to the high 3rd order HD that plagues it on the lower end. It does tend to sound like xover distortion on an underbiased amp. Those Mosfet haflers need a ton of idle current to sound good. I have an XL600 myself that I set aside and replaced with an A21 parasound because of the fan noise. Otherwise its a great amp with tons of power and current.
Stay tuned on the big Vifa domes. Hopefully it will work out in my favor.
The distortion you mentioned on the EM1308 dome could be attributed to the high 3rd order HD that plagues it on the lower end. It does tend to sound like xover distortion on an underbiased amp. Those Mosfet haflers need a ton of idle current to sound good. I have an XL600 myself that I set aside and replaced with an A21 parasound because of the fan noise. Otherwise its a great amp with tons of power and current.
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