Those look awesome! Much nicer than my crappy paint job. I don't have the patience to do veneer, but it does look better.
I can't say that I noticed the midrange being more laid-back, but the bass seems slightly stronger, but still not boosted. Which is good to me. I don't like the boomy-bass sound. When I first measured the speakers with the stock crossover, it looked to me like the bass was down about 3db or more. Now, it seems pretty even with the midrange.
The difference is a lot more subtle between the two inductors than I expected, I guess, with music, but it definitely measures differently. I think the efficiency is better, now, for one thing. From the measurements, I'm guessing the bass improved around 3db. I can see where the stock crossover might be fine for some, but hard to ignore the weak bass. Placement could also make a big difference. The stock setup sounded good and clear, but a bit thin. Even with the 2.1SE mods, it's still a bit high in the treble area. (Measured, it looks like it might be +3db or so?) When time permits, I'd like to retest using REW which may give me more helpful charts.
I think it'd be helpful to get Allex's files and use Xsim to play with different values for the crossover parts. I just haven't taken the time to do that. When I have a lot of free time, I'd like to play with that.
In general, I would think tweeters should not be crossed-over too low. It's not obvious to me where the crossover point is, thus the desire to get Xsim working. I'm a bit confused as to why there's a difference there in the 2.2DIY and the 2.1SE, and hopefully the xsim plots would clarify that. I'm wondering if the mids actually are raised that much with the .5ohm that it means the tweeter can then be crossed higher to get out of the way? Also, Xsim should let us know how much bass we really gain out of that inductor change.
I have downloaded the Xsim software this morning, it say it is something wrong with .frd and .zma files when I try to load them in to the speaker tuning in the software.
//Peter
I got Xsim to work so I have been playing around a little with different crossover configurations tonight, to get rid of the dip at 3k you should change the polarity on the tweeter. You might get a small hump instead but that is possible to correct by increasing the value of the 1.5 ohm resistor to 5.6 ohm. The increased value of the resistor will also give a little more of bass.
Another thing that gives you a more fullbodied sound is to chamfer the hole for the midwoofer on the inside of the baffel, check the link to Gravesens little test that is in one of my previous posts. If I get the time during this weekend I will try out a change on the crossovers in my speakers.
I figured the dip was around the crossover area, but I guess I shouldn't be too surprised if they are out of phase, since changing the cap didn't seem to make much difference. Interesting. Why didn't either of the Swans/HiVi designs flip the polarity? If you have basically a 2nd order crossover, isn't it normal to reverse the polarity of the tweeter? I'm going to look at the diagrams again.
I happen to have 4ohm resistors handy. If I can get Xsim going, I'll see if that would work. Since I already changed out the cap, the bump may not be as significant anyway.
Chamfering sounds like a good idea, but not sure I want to fool with that, now that everything is assembled. (Seems like you'd want to try to do it when cutting the holes.) Besides, I'm not sure the 18mm or 19mm of our baffles is that significant. His examples start at 22mm, so we're already going to do better than that, plus the speaker seems pretty open in the back. Seems less of a concern to me, but could be an interesting experiment. Try to measure before and after!
I happen to have 4ohm resistors handy. If I can get Xsim going, I'll see if that would work. Since I already changed out the cap, the bump may not be as significant anyway.
Chamfering sounds like a good idea, but not sure I want to fool with that, now that everything is assembled. (Seems like you'd want to try to do it when cutting the holes.) Besides, I'm not sure the 18mm or 19mm of our baffles is that significant. His examples start at 22mm, so we're already going to do better than that, plus the speaker seems pretty open in the back. Seems less of a concern to me, but could be an interesting experiment. Try to measure before and after!
If it is a Linkwitz-Riley 2nd order filter, which it looks as if you look at the electric behaviour of the filter in Xsim, the polarity of the tweeter should be inverted.
I did the chamfer of the woofer holes 10 mm 45 degrees when I built my speakers, so I can't tell if there is a difference in sound if the holes are chamfered or not. The Woofer is rather shallow so if you put it in a straight hole even in a 19 mm baffel there is rather much of the cone that will be influenced by the edges of the hole.
Got some resistors and 4,7 uF capacitors today, hope I get some time during the weekend to try them out.
What measuring equipment are you guys using?
I don't have any measuring equipment but have thoughts to buy something that ain't to expensive.
I did the chamfer of the woofer holes 10 mm 45 degrees when I built my speakers, so I can't tell if there is a difference in sound if the holes are chamfered or not. The Woofer is rather shallow so if you put it in a straight hole even in a 19 mm baffel there is rather much of the cone that will be influenced by the edges of the hole.
Got some resistors and 4,7 uF capacitors today, hope I get some time during the weekend to try them out.
What measuring equipment are you guys using?
I don't have any measuring equipment but have thoughts to buy something that ain't to expensive.
Is $21.49 cheap enough? 
Dayton Audio iMM-6 Calibrated Measurement Microphone for Tablets iPhone iPad and Android
Then, you have to use an app that recognizes the calibration file.
There are more exacting measuring mics, but being +-.5db is good enough for me. So far, I've been using a phone app, but would like to double-check with REW one day, but first, I need to find time to play with Xsim and see about your resistor idea!
Dayton Audio iMM-6 Calibrated Measurement Microphone for Tablets iPhone iPad and Android
Then, you have to use an app that recognizes the calibration file.
There are more exacting measuring mics, but being +-.5db is good enough for me. So far, I've been using a phone app, but would like to double-check with REW one day, but first, I need to find time to play with Xsim and see about your resistor idea!
I finally got the circuit modeled in Xsim. I played with the 1.5 ohm resistor, substituting different values, and I only see it affecting the midrange, not the bass. I don't see this as making it better. I flipped the phase of the tweeter (there's a menu entry for "invert" that makes this easy), and that does fix most of the dip around 2 to 3khz. I can't believe the other designs don't have that. SO, I think I'm just going to make that one change and maybe I'm done tweaking. (I already have the 4.7mh cap change, which I think is probably an improvement, as the 6.8mh gives it a peak at 2khz, although that, too, is kind of hard to tell if it's an overall win, as the 4.7 has a slight dip at 3khz, even with the tweeter inversion.) Xsim shows the treble with a gentle increase, but it seems so slight, I'm not concerned about that. I think I'd like to try to invert the phase and see how that goes. Unfortunately, I didn't use slide-on clips on the tweeters -- I soldered the wires to make them more secure. So, that'll have to wait .
Have changed the crossover in one of my speakers. Tried to reverse the polarity on the tweeter but that doesn't sound good.
Have ordered a measurment mic UMIK-1, it will arrive in the beginning of the week. When I get the mic a will do some measurments to compare the speaker with modified crossover with the one that still has the original crossover.
Hopefully I can show some measurments by next weekend.
Have ordered a measurment mic UMIK-1, it will arrive in the beginning of the week. When I get the mic a will do some measurments to compare the speaker with modified crossover with the one that still has the original crossover.
Hopefully I can show some measurments by next weekend.
Seems odd. I can't say I can tell much of a difference after reversing my tweeters. Measuring, it does eliminate that 3KHz dip.
If I measure the speakers on-axis, they are very bright -- up by several db! Allex has a number of modifications to the crossover (which should reduce the harshness), which is a bit tempting at this point. (Although the thought occurred to me that maybe a bit more resistance might be enough to dampen that treble a bit.)
Then I measured off-axis, and the treble fell off more than the midrange, making the sound much more balanced (but still a tad high in treble). So I'm thinking unless you plan to toe-in the speakers a lot and point them directly at you, maybe it makes sense as it is. I'm going to listen to them with a slight toe-in, so I'm about 30 degrees off of center.
I haven't measured with the grills, but now I wonder how much of a difference those make as well, to dampen the highs a bit.
Listening, they do sound bright, overall. But some recordings just sound great. Listening to Heart's Love Alive album, it didn't sound overly bright at all, but the cymbals could be clearly heard. More modern music with a "wall of noise" aesthetic sounded more harsh. It's hard for me to compare against my old bookshelf speakers, as their tweeters really rolled off the highs, due to the years (and I've been recently trying to restore them). Anything sounds bright compared to gummed-up tweeters! Ah well. Anyway, it's nice to hear treble again. ;-)
If I measure the speakers on-axis, they are very bright -- up by several db! Allex has a number of modifications to the crossover (which should reduce the harshness), which is a bit tempting at this point. (Although the thought occurred to me that maybe a bit more resistance might be enough to dampen that treble a bit.)
Then I measured off-axis, and the treble fell off more than the midrange, making the sound much more balanced (but still a tad high in treble). So I'm thinking unless you plan to toe-in the speakers a lot and point them directly at you, maybe it makes sense as it is. I'm going to listen to them with a slight toe-in, so I'm about 30 degrees off of center.
I haven't measured with the grills, but now I wonder how much of a difference those make as well, to dampen the highs a bit.
Listening, they do sound bright, overall. But some recordings just sound great. Listening to Heart's Love Alive album, it didn't sound overly bright at all, but the cymbals could be clearly heard. More modern music with a "wall of noise" aesthetic sounded more harsh. It's hard for me to compare against my old bookshelf speakers, as their tweeters really rolled off the highs, due to the years (and I've been recently trying to restore them). Anything sounds bright compared to gummed-up tweeters! Ah well. Anyway, it's nice to hear treble again. ;-)
Love the work on this you all are doing. I'd love to get involved. I saw a review on Sound Imports of one that is designed.
I'm a bit lost though. I have the 2.2a crossovers that come with the kit on soundimports.eu and I want to develop a second crossover to try. I'd like to know what the best components for this would be. I don't mind spending a bit more money, if the tweeks balance these out a bit more.
I'm a bit lost though. I have the 2.2a crossovers that come with the kit on soundimports.eu and I want to develop a second crossover to try. I'd like to know what the best components for this would be. I don't mind spending a bit more money, if the tweeks balance these out a bit more.
Are you asking which crossover mod to go with? Allex put together a very complete solution. So if you want the "best", you might want to review his diagram and see what you think. You can use Xsim to model the crossovers as well, which can help give you an idea of what any changes should do to the system. Well, you should try to get an idea of what you want out of the change and also your budget. If the bright tweeter bothers you, for example, you'll want to look for a solution that affects that.
I went with something close to the Swans 2.1SE crossover that Allex posted. This seemed to me like a good compromise between the original kit and something better. The original inductor for the woofer is awfully small, with a
high resistance, and I assume was used for cost-savings.
I went with something close to the Swans 2.1SE crossover that Allex posted. This seemed to me like a good compromise between the original kit and something better. The original inductor for the woofer is awfully small, with a
high resistance, and I assume was used for cost-savings.
Hi Vidgamar,
Thank you for the reply. I'm actually thinking of creating a second cross over. Then, using the duel posts on the back, I was thinking I could have one cross over to the top and one to the bottom.
The issue I have is that I will need all new parts, and I'm not as familiar with Electrical components as I need to be.
Thank you for the reply. I'm actually thinking of creating a second cross over. Then, using the duel posts on the back, I was thinking I could have one cross over to the top and one to the bottom.
The issue I have is that I will need all new parts, and I'm not as familiar with Electrical components as I need to be.
It's really weird how they have a dual post setup, but only use one set of inputs to the crossover. I briefly thought about trying to modify to separate the crossover, but I don't plan to bi-amp, so no point to it. If that's what you're planning to do, bi-amp, don't bother -- it doesn't do anything, really. If you want to run an active DSP or something separately for each, I suppose it could make sense, but in that case, you might not want any crossover, allowing the DSP to do all the filtering.
But trying to modify a passive crossover for use with bi-amping is a waste of time, IMHO.
However, if you're insistent upon having separate crossovers for woofer and tweeter you don't need "all new parts". It's the same parts, you just make sure the two are completely separate, from the binding posts to the individual speakers.
Try to figure out what you want out of the sound. I think Allex and I found the bass to be a bit lacking, so I think swapping out the inductor is a good way to start, but a large inductor is expensive. My cost for a couple of inductors and a couple of capacitors and shipping was about $60? A pretty big chunk-of-change, considering the rest of the kit was about $240!
But trying to modify a passive crossover for use with bi-amping is a waste of time, IMHO.
However, if you're insistent upon having separate crossovers for woofer and tweeter you don't need "all new parts". It's the same parts, you just make sure the two are completely separate, from the binding posts to the individual speakers.
Try to figure out what you want out of the sound. I think Allex and I found the bass to be a bit lacking, so I think swapping out the inductor is a good way to start, but a large inductor is expensive. My cost for a couple of inductors and a couple of capacitors and shipping was about $60? A pretty big chunk-of-change, considering the rest of the kit was about $240!
I'm sorry, but I think I miscommunicated what I intend to do.
I will build this cross over, then I will put BOTH cross overs in the box. I will attach the new crossover to the top posts, and the other crossover to the bottom. I will then remove the bridge, and be able to use either crossover by connecting to the top or bottom.
I will build this cross over, then I will put BOTH cross overs in the box. I will attach the new crossover to the top posts, and the other crossover to the bottom. I will then remove the bridge, and be able to use either crossover by connecting to the top or bottom.