It’s been great reading this thread to hear everyone’s thoughts on the Swans 2.2’s and how to improve them. Thanks to you all, I took the plunge and built a set of them myself. Sure enough, the highs were quite forward and harsh, though otherwise very good for the price. Considering that the stock crossover uses those cheap and ubiquitous “Audiophiler” caps, the harshness wasn’t very surprising. The brightness by itself wasn’t terrible, but the edginess made them fatiguing. I replaced the stock caps with Jantzen Superiors of the same values, and the improvement was exactly proportional to the increase in the cost of the project — much smoother highs, tons of fine detail, and holographic imaging. That’s 75% better! Surely there’s a more reasonably priced capacitor that would achieve the same improvement, it’s just unfortunate that HiVi chose to include the lowest quality capacitors available. Anyhow I’m very happy with these speakers now and no longer feel the need to alter the design of the crossover. Just my 2 cents.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Hi i am new to DIY and thanks for all the good info.
I purchased a HiVi 2.2a kit and came out to $135, how lucky i was. at this price point i could go with ether crossover mods and come out on the budget side. well i checked all the parts and every thing looked perfect... yea right, instead of 2 front and 2 backs i got 1 front and 3 backs the worst part was that i noticed after building the second cabinet and the original crossovers. Thank God Amazon refunded.
First this is my first DIY and learned a little about crossovers with you guys and a little reading. practiced a lot with XSim and the response files provided on this forum. out of that i build virtually both crossovers and the and visually (by graph) the Mod by @Alex looks flatter and the SE looks more lively or happy faced. thow, both look lots better than original. building both from scratch and using the midpoint cost of each component summed to at around 130-170 USD. this means that if i go with original price of 235 plus the crossove mod it would be 365 to 405 total cost. not mentioning the 3.1a that would come up around 470. included the frequency response graphs for both crossovers and also the tweeter polarity inversion graphs (they look nice but dont know how they would sound) please notice that all i have done is play with XSim i have not heard any of them.
Now my question, would it be worth the cost of the speakers? how would they compare to other speakers on the price point? I do own a pare of Klipsch RP-600M which i love, thus i wold really love to build some high quality speakers at a reasonable price. also looking at the xls encore and the triton td1, but then again they are darn expensive.
With my more modest crossover changes, it only added about $60. If worried about a budget, might be worth considering. The woofer inductor I used isn't exactly the same value Allex specified, but probably close enough where if desired, I could go and add his tweeter crossover mods if I wanted (without rebuying the rest of it). It's starting to get subtle enough that I'm not sure if I'd find it to be an improvement, as a couple of db more treble is OK with me. 
I am listening to them off-axis, though, which I think mostly handles this problem. I don't generally listen to speakers toed-into the extreme. If you compensate for the highs, it's going to sound rolled-off if you don't listen to them on-axis. Something that's not obvious from the simulations and measurements, unless you measure off-axis. (Someone else should measure off-axis and see if I'm right or not. Maybe it's just me.)
Is it worth it? It was hard for me to see a better value. I don't audition speakers, so I'm not really sure how to compare, but surely it'd compete with speakers twice this cost, or more. I like to think I have $1000 speakers that don't look like $1000 speakers, like someone's old clunker that has a big engine and is really a "sleeper". Well, for me, for $300, it seems like really good value, but unless directly comparing against other options, it's hard to say for sure.
I have an inexpensive (~$100) subwoofer to help the bottom-end, and I'm really enjoying the result. Having the kit just makes it easier to not have to deal with the woodworking, but it's still a lot of work to complete. Fun project.
I am listening to them off-axis, though, which I think mostly handles this problem. I don't generally listen to speakers toed-into the extreme. If you compensate for the highs, it's going to sound rolled-off if you don't listen to them on-axis. Something that's not obvious from the simulations and measurements, unless you measure off-axis. (Someone else should measure off-axis and see if I'm right or not. Maybe it's just me.)Is it worth it? It was hard for me to see a better value. I don't audition speakers, so I'm not really sure how to compare, but surely it'd compete with speakers twice this cost, or more. I like to think I have $1000 speakers that don't look like $1000 speakers, like someone's old clunker that has a big engine and is really a "sleeper".
Well, for me, for $300, it seems like really good value, but unless directly comparing against other options, it's hard to say for sure.I have an inexpensive (~$100) subwoofer to help the bottom-end, and I'm really enjoying the result. Having the kit just makes it easier to not have to deal with the woodworking, but it's still a lot of work to complete. Fun project.
I think I planned to document more. Anyway, from Madisound, I bought:
Sidewinder 2.5 mH Air Core Inductor 16 AWG
Solen PB 4.7 mfd Metalized Polypropylene Fast Capacitor 400V
Two each, one for each speaker. If you look at the 2.1SE diagram, you can see where they go. For the remaining parts, I retained the original kit parts.
(And I kept staring at the graph until I flipped the tweeter polarity. I don't understand why that wasn't in either of the plans.)
Sidewinder 2.5 mH Air Core Inductor 16 AWG
Solen PB 4.7 mfd Metalized Polypropylene Fast Capacitor 400V
Two each, one for each speaker. If you look at the 2.1SE diagram, you can see where they go. For the remaining parts, I retained the original kit parts.
(And I kept staring at the graph until I flipped the tweeter polarity. I don't understand why that wasn't in either of the plans.)
Vidgamer\AllexKirilov\AllenB
Here are my xsim projects one with my own mod and the other with se which i tried to optimize. your opinion is valued. thanks
HiVi DIY 2.1se Optimized.dxo - Google Drive
HiVi DIY 2.2a myversion.dxo - Google Drive
Here are my xsim projects one with my own mod and the other with se which i tried to optimize. your opinion is valued. thanks
HiVi DIY 2.1se Optimized.dxo - Google Drive
HiVi DIY 2.2a myversion.dxo - Google Drive
I bought a Zoudio amp and run the Swans DIY 2.2 Active now. I measured my Paradigm studio 20.v5 and set the Hivi drivers up to almost 100% mirror of frequency response. Though the HIVI drivers don't sound quite as good, they sound ALMOST as good as these $1500 speakers do They also have more bass !
I would ditch any passive crossover affort with this speaker and go active, Hands down best decision with these 2 drivers.
They also have more bass !I would ditch any passive crossover affort with this speaker and go active, Hands down best decision with these 2 drivers.
Jorfila, the Zoudio Amp is a 4 channel amp with integrated DSP. You hook your drivers directly to the amp. Then you download the software and Set each driver setting the way your want it. That means up to 48db crossover slopes and pretty much any eq and time alignment settings you can think of This would cost hundreds and hundreds of dollars to copy with a passive crossover and filter network
This would cost hundreds and hundreds of dollars to copy with a passive crossover and filter network 
Wolf, how much do you usually spend on crossover components? How much does your amp cost?
typical passive components cost what, a couple hundred bucks? And you have maybe a dozen filters or xover settings ? With the zoudio amp I can have 18 adjustments per driver. (this includes a crossover setting)
The zoudio amp has EVERYTHING built into it. 1 stop shopping. 50wx4
You can also change everything on the fly without re soldering anything, and make WAY finer adjustments much easier. I really find it difficult to understand the allure of passive crossover networks. Is it the satisfaction of creating something that really keeps them popular? Or is it the simplicity of only having to use 2 amp channels
AllenB, That's 72 possible components that you would have to pay for if going passive. Where are you buying components? also how would you time align with passive?
typical passive components cost what, a couple hundred bucks? And you have maybe a dozen filters or xover settings ? With the zoudio amp I can have 18 adjustments per driver. (this includes a crossover setting)
The zoudio amp has EVERYTHING built into it. 1 stop shopping. 50wx4
You can also change everything on the fly without re soldering anything, and make WAY finer adjustments much easier. I really find it difficult to understand the allure of passive crossover networks. Is it the satisfaction of creating something that really keeps them popular? Or is it the simplicity of only having to use 2 amp channels
AllenB, That's 72 possible components that you would have to pay for if going passive. Where are you buying components?
also how would you time align with passive?
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My amps are a pair of Crown XLS1500. They are capable of a LOT more power (10x) than the Zoudio, so that they will not clip under moderate levels. I have lesser powered amplifiers, and most of them seem to just get to where I like it output wise, and then can't give any more. I use them to measure FR, and run 4 speakers of 6 in my HT/stereo. I also bought them at a -20% cost from the PE Tent Sales.
I typically spend about as much on the xover as in the drivers in terms of retail cost. I RARELY spend full retail for xover parts and have purchased a lot of second-hand components, as well as wind my own coils a majority of the time.
The EMP build you heard in LaPorte is a case in point. I purchased the black caps on the tweeter, as well as the silver-mica bypasses. These were NOS surplus. I had everything else on-hand. Technically speaking as far as retail and how I acquired the components second hand, I technically got the rest of the parts for free. This actually means that I spent WAY LESS on the xover than you think I did.
Do I always go overboard like I did on those? No. It was an opportunity to try some things out. Switches are cheap.
Passives are plug and play, no setup required in translation, and the reason why passive xovers still dominate the market. You come from a car-audio background, so I understand the allure from your past experience.
I think Mr Kirilov did a great job taming these with the parts he used, using measurements, etc. The difference here is that without seeing proof of your results, I have no way of knowing if you did your version justice and can't just take your word for it. I believe you did your measurements, don't get me wrong, but seeing your filter implementation is something I would not be the only one left wanting.
To time-align, I'm guessing, is what you mean by getting the offsets to play nicely and meld at the xover, correct? Normally this is seen or referred to aligned driver phases or even in 'phase quadrature'. There are many different schools here.
- Physically time-aligning is stepping/angling the baffle
- digital delay via processing/DSP is the way active/car-audio does it
- Use phase delay of xover circuit to align the offsets
You are new enough that just because you don't know how something is done does not mean it's automatically inferior to the supposed easier/faster process you've recently finished.
To throw a wrench into your summation, do you know what ringing is? Xovers at 8th-order (48dB/oct) is NOT always the best method...
Best regards,
Wolf
I typically spend about as much on the xover as in the drivers in terms of retail cost. I RARELY spend full retail for xover parts and have purchased a lot of second-hand components, as well as wind my own coils a majority of the time.
The EMP build you heard in LaPorte is a case in point. I purchased the black caps on the tweeter, as well as the silver-mica bypasses. These were NOS surplus. I had everything else on-hand. Technically speaking as far as retail and how I acquired the components second hand, I technically got the rest of the parts for free. This actually means that I spent WAY LESS on the xover than you think I did.
Do I always go overboard like I did on those? No. It was an opportunity to try some things out. Switches are cheap.
Passives are plug and play, no setup required in translation, and the reason why passive xovers still dominate the market. You come from a car-audio background, so I understand the allure from your past experience.
I think Mr Kirilov did a great job taming these with the parts he used, using measurements, etc. The difference here is that without seeing proof of your results, I have no way of knowing if you did your version justice and can't just take your word for it. I believe you did your measurements, don't get me wrong, but seeing your filter implementation is something I would not be the only one left wanting.
To time-align, I'm guessing, is what you mean by getting the offsets to play nicely and meld at the xover, correct? Normally this is seen or referred to aligned driver phases or even in 'phase quadrature'. There are many different schools here.
- Physically time-aligning is stepping/angling the baffle
- digital delay via processing/DSP is the way active/car-audio does it
- Use phase delay of xover circuit to align the offsets
You are new enough that just because you don't know how something is done does not mean it's automatically inferior to the supposed easier/faster process you've recently finished.
To throw a wrench into your summation, do you know what ringing is? Xovers at 8th-order (48dB/oct) is NOT always the best method...
Best regards,
Wolf