high performance, low cost 5 inch 2-way

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I had the original SB15NRX when they first came out and thought was was something odd with the mids (no such issue with the SB12NRX). I ended up damping the cone to remove some of the nasal quality. The SB15MFC doesn't have the same issue and very smooth over the mids and feel it is a better driver by memory but the other was long ago. The SB13PFC is a bargain but I haven't directly compared.
 
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Well, again, just to be clear; the SB13PFCR is the newer version with the round basket or frame and the response is smoother than the original version with the odd shaped square frame. I did sell my pair but I really like them; the paper is not Papyrus (or at least I couldn't prove it) but it looks like it, very similar in appearance to the Papyrus of my Satoris. It has a lot of detail but also remains well controlled with good self damping. I will try other bargain and budget drivers in this 5 inch size just as a side project to my main system which I never seem to get around to finishing (cold weather, arthritis...). I might just very well end up buying another pair of these SB13 as I like them so much. Back to the original intent; I was able to buy two SB13 and two Vifa silk dome tweeters all four for under $100 US; something I took on as a challenge just to see how good $100 could be in performance. (as I said, I had boxes and X/O parts; plenty of choices on hand...and, the $100 doesn't count shipping but as these are small, shipping is insignificant here).

SB has a good thing going for sure; I am really hoping the TexTreme prices will drop so then I can get on with the other end of the SB performance spectrum...their highest end instead of the lowest end...I have already had Satori MR16 and MW16 mids and mid-woofer; extremely hard to beat performance especially considering they are much lower priced than the other choices still made in Europe...
 
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Dayton Audio RS125P-8 5" Reference Paper Woofer 8 Ohm

On sale so I just bought two pieces. This is the Ref series 8 Ohm PAPER cone; it looks like the smoothest, flattest and most extended of ALL the RS125 choices. Again, I like paper and paper composites usually over other materials; I almost always avoid hard cones for mids and mid woofers; woofers (for 3-way) only in hard cone are OK by me. I like good self damping and try to avoid ANY driver with huge break-up peaks (exceptions of course as always)
 
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Just got my Daytons. SMALL! Not 5 1/4 inch, more like 5.0 inch frame outer diameter. I will need to compare these more to my MA Pluvia 7PHD than my Satori MR16. The cone diameter is just slightly large than the P7P; way small than the SB13s I started with. Miles Davis first up on Columbia; mono and one channel only for starters. Also; per my usual; true full range; no X/O at all just to get an idea. First impressions: clean; wide band; no noticeable major problem areas whatsoever. That's a very good thing in my book! First guess; would make a nice wide band mid in a budget 3-way; 1st order X/O HP and LP most likely without issues...much more later.
 
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I have some of the smaller PE/Dayton 4 inch 2-ways with AMT. I'm thinking this RS125 might just drop right in; I'll do basic calcs later with TSPs to see if the box volume is a match. The SB13s are more like 5 1/2 inch and the RS125s are more like 4 1/2 inch; not just comparing frame sizes but cone diameters and Sd.
 
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https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/295-361--rs125p-8-spec-sheet.pdf

Dayton Audio RS125P-8 5" Reference Paper Woofer 8 Ohm

Compare Closed Speaker-Woofer with optimized- and customized Alignment

I like this calculator because you can compare "optimized" and custom box volume. (Optimized just means a Q of 0.707).

This tells me the smaller boxes I have should work just fine; they are about 2.9 l not subtracting for internal driver and X/O volumes. This calc shows about 2.5 l for a Q of 0.707 (Butterworth). Even if the mounting hole diameter is not an exact match; I can easily modify it to work.

Looks like I have something new to keep me busy today.

My neighbor said he is done with my mic and interface; maybe I can try REW again. I have yet to get it to work just right; it has a notice that I get a much lower than expected level regardless of what I do. I think maybe there is a mismatch with my mic or interface; maybe I'll get UMIK-1 next to try???
 
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Breaking in nicely; depending on SPL and power requirements plus music and source choices; we "could" use these true fullrange without any X/O top or bottom! I have many FR and MW and mids in the 3 1/2 to 5 1/2 inch size. If I get some energy; I might take this further than my original ideas!??

The SB13s I started this thread with are the ones to try to beat for max power; deepest bass; wide band and the most versatile especially in the under $25 each budget category!

I have a new smaller drill driver on order and more screw assortments on order; they should all be delivered to day. I like having two battery powered drill drivers; one a 1/2 in chuck and one a 3/8 in chuck. This way I can drill holes and then put in screws very quickly for fast prototypes and quicky experiments. Both drill drivers can accept quick change magnetic bit holders for even faster swaps. They both have torque limiting clutches which is needed for going into softer MDF, plywood, softwoods and even some hard woods. Stripping due to over torqueing is a real no-no for me. I use the largest diameter self tapping screws that fit the driver "fixing" holes for a more snug fit. I have done T-nuts for final designs but for fast models; self tapping screws are so much easier and convenient.

More later...

PS, I also have quite a few budget and low to mid priced tweeters to choose from...
 
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Second RS125 in the small Dayton box (closed). The original mounting hole was actually larger than required.

Dayton Audio B452-AIR 4-1/2" 2-Way Bookshelf Speaker Pair with AMT Tweeter

This is what I am using; they call it a 4 1/2 inch; that explains the larger hole. The AMT tweeter is not connected at the moment. I found it to not be loud enough for my old hearing but my Brother may very well like these with that tweeter; if not; I have plenty of choices in this small size (the AMT has an odd oval shape and cut-out and recess but that should be an easy thing to "fix".)

This box has way less volume than my other test enclosure so the bass is more like what we would expect with a Q of around 0.707. I purposely used a larger enclosure at first because I wanted a lower Q. Depending of course on TSPs, etc.; a lower Q will have a higher F3 but a lower F10 which is more important to me and the lower Q usually also gives us a better transient response which is also important to me.

Still breaking in this second driver. If you are like me without a full wood working shop; you could maybe buy these B452 at a discount as they sometimes sell slightly used or re-stock items such as this. Then you could easily upgrade the original MW with this RS125.

More later; too early yet to increase the volume; upstairs neighbors not up and about just yet...
 
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These little guys loosen up and break in quickly! Any REW experts out there? I have traded messages with a few. My problem is that no matter where I set my interface gain or how close the mic is to the driver to be measured or even how loud I have the amp turned up driving the speaker; I get a notice that the level is much less than expected. I might just try a UMIK-1 next if I can't get this sorted out. Many of you guys make fun of my methods and that's OK; I would like to do real measurements from time to time using REW; is ARTA maybe more forgiving???

Dayton Audio EMM-6 Electret Measurement Microphone

My microphone above; interface below.

M-Audio

I chose this combination because some people said they thought the noise floor would be lower and the measurement accuracy would be better than the more simple USB direct type mics.
 
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Starting to play with X/O component values. I zeroed in on it fairly quick as these are easy to deal with. I just couldn't get too excited about the original AMT tweeter; the output is just way too low even when I crossed it lower than we normally would. Yes, these will do very nicely in this smaller box. For my personal tastes, 0.33 mH on the RS125 with about 11 Ohms resistor in parallel with the inductor. The 0.33 mH by itself just didn't have quite enough upper mids for my tastes. I tried 0.20 mH first; this lets in too much upper mids and lower treble for me. Again; I don't do things in a conventional way and really wouldn't expect too many to try my X/O values but they work for me and that is all that really matters. I went back to my small Vifa 100 dB horn loaded silk dome tweeter; it sounds amazingly clean and fresh and accurate for such an inexpensive tweeter. It rolls off the highest frequencies but I certainly don't miss them.
 
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Back to the original. If you need higher SPL, deeper bass, etc, then the SB13 I started with is the way to go for sure! I like the RS125 in a larger box; transients are better, lower bass is better and the upper bass is actually better too. BUT, for a small box, the RS125 in the does really good; for a desk or office system without the need for higher SPL of deeper bass; it is a very inexpensive and small thing to consider.
 
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Weiss "Pieces de Luth" (Hopkinson Smith) - YouTube

This is a very good recording; Baroque era lute. With a $20 tweeter and a $30 MW in a small size closed box; these things are surprisingly accurate, clean and very musical. If you so called experts and others want to still poke fun at my methods; you are welcome also!...I really do have a golden ear and so if you don't want to believe that; OK by me; you are missing out if you refuse to experiment...enough...more later...
 
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I used to do much larger boxes, bass reflex (vented) tuned very low decades ago. Then I switched to smaller closed boxes just because of space limitations. Now; I do closed boxes with either Aperiodic vents or larger closed boxes with a Q combined between 0.5 and 0.6....WHY? Because this seems to give us the most accurate bass without going full out to TL, MLTL, front or back loaded horns. Let room gain work for you. A Q just isn't the entire answer but just another variable in the entire sea of things to choose from!
 
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