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Satori MR 16 is the one to try to beat
Satori MR 16 is the one to try to beat
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Old 20th January 2021, 06:35 PM   #21
3wayaddict is offline 3wayaddict  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman View Post
B&C 8NDL51, though much larger, works in a smaller box. Has an efficiency that's comparable, more displacement, and costs 15% less. The B&C can produce more output than FOUR of the SB drivers.

SB Acoustics is really nice, but the 8NDL51 is tough to beat.

B&C 8NDL51 8" Neodymium Woofer
I think we care more about sound quality than loudness here. The Satori is also not designed as a pro midrange.
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Old 20th January 2021, 06:47 PM   #22
celef is offline celef
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Originally Posted by oldspkrguy View Post
The Goertz flat foil inductors seem to have very low DCR compared to other brands even with the same equivalent wire gauge. That is certainly ONE reason; the bass seems more defined even though we are using these in series with a mid or mid/bass for a higher frequency low pass. The mids and highs ALSO seem to be better defined; more resolution and detail. I have some Hepa-Litz 12 gauge and standard 14 gauge coils. In my A/B listening tests, the flat foils almost always give a more realistic presentation. Even when comparing the Goertz to another brand of the same inductance and equivalent inductance. Yes, many people try to argue there is no difference in sound "quality" between different inductors, capacitors and even resistors. There is a difference for sure; sometimes it is only a slight improvement; sometimes it is very obviously a great improvement. Subjective? Maybe but I am fully retired and have all day to experiment. I am a retired Engineer, Technician and former Musician so I do understand all the math and science; I also trust my trained musician's hearing...Like I have said; these discussions and arguments will most likely go on until the end of time...
thank you! if you would scale the sonic difference of the goertz coils, would it be in the minor range or the major range / night and day difference? many times when i have tried a component after a recommendation i have most often been disappointed, expected night and day difference but met very minor if any difference at all, so therefor i ask straight out
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Old 21st January 2021, 07:56 AM   #23
42476 is offline 42476
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The Goertz flat foils are better by quite a bit than a standard wire wound and by a bit than a Hepa-Litz. I don't go higher than 1 mH on air core inductors though. I don't know about an actual number assignment but let's give the Goertz 8, 9 or 10 on a scale of 10; Hepa-Litz, 6, 7 or 8 and regular coils 4, 5 or 6. I use the heaviest gauge I can afford if it is in series (for low pass duties) for sure; for high pass, I still use a heavy gauge even if on a tweeter circuit. Not sure if this helps or not. (I don't normally use flat foil in a high pass circuit unless I just happen to have the correct value already on hand)
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Old 21st January 2021, 08:07 AM   #24
42476 is offline 42476
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3wayaddict, I am using two per side Vifa/Peerless/Tymphany NE225W-08-HS. These are designed and built very similar to Satori and Illuminator. Some of the best 8 inch (really more like 9 inch) I have heard. I have them sealed; very clean and accurate and they can cross fairly high for a driver this size if need be. I bought the last four pieces in stock; these have been discontinued (I think only the version with the heat sink was discontinued; the other 225's may still be in production as far as I know). Good to know the MR16 mids can meet or beat even high end; I always thought so myself anyway!
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Old 21st January 2021, 08:28 AM   #25
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https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...6P-4_Rev-1.pdf

The MR16 I have, 4 Ohm, gray cone


https://meniscusaudio.com/wp-content...Data-Sheet.pdf

The 13PFC I just received. These are the round frame, 8 Ohm version. They sound REALLY good for anything in this price range; one could be fooled into thinking they cost 2, 3 maybe even 4 times more! The cone "looks" like the Papyrus but has way fewer flecks or specks than the MR16 cone. Perhaps it is a less expensive paper with similar properties to Papyrus? No way do they sound as good as a Satori...BUT, I'm thinking for the money; there may not be a better sounding 5 inch mid-bass!??
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Old 21st January 2021, 08:43 AM   #26
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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Satori MR 16 is the one to try to beat
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldspkrguy View Post
The Goertz flat foils are better by quite a bit than a standard wire wound and by a bit than a Hepa-Litz.
You mentioned a lower resistance. How can you tell that you aren't noticing a difference in response, and not in fact the coil itself?
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Old 21st January 2021, 09:11 AM   #27
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Originally Posted by 3wayaddict View Post
I think we care more about sound quality than loudness here. The Satori is also not designed as a pro midrange.
1) The B&C 8NDL51 is not a midrange driver. If that's what your into, check out the 8PE21. It has less xmax and higher efficiency.

2) If you think sound quality and loudness are mutually exclusive, you should check out some of the speakers from JBL, Danley, Bang and Olufsen, etc. To quote Greg Timbers:

An Interview with Greg Timbers, Past Designer/Engineer for JBL

"I believe that solid Dynamic behavior is most important to get lifelike sound. Dynamics require high efficiency since transducers are pitiful in energy conversion. I also believe that sound staging is extremely important. I think natural midrange and bass presentation precedes the treble range. Of course all things have to be balanced!"

Last edited by Patrick Bateman; 21st January 2021 at 09:19 AM.
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Old 21st January 2021, 09:23 AM   #28
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Well, the sound quality improves so maybe the lower DCR is helping the Q? I haven't done any precision measurements for sure; just based on mostly listening tests. Others besides myself have also made similar statements about these. Again, things like this may not be measurable with home based software, hardware, etc.? I can say for sure though when doing quick A/B comparisons, the sound quality improvement is very real. Why is this exactly? I don't know for sure, lower DCR is always a good thing but there is more to it than just resistance alone.

Goertz CF.56 (14 AWG) Copper Foil Inductor

I did a quick search for Alpha Core Goertz and came up empty. I have found some documents in the past though that go into some detail about the superiority of flat foil inductors. I guess this gives me a research project for the day.

"Goertz 14 AWG Copper Foil Inductors: 750 Watts; Leads: 0.010 x 0.321 inch, copper; Conductors: 99.99% pure, copper; Dielectric: 0.0015 inch thick, polypropylene film; Inductance Tolerance: +/- 2.5%; and Inductance Reactance: Flat from 5Hz to 50kHz."

"High-technology laminating from Alpha-Core/Goertz makes it possible to manufacture inductors from high purity copper foil wound onto a Lexan polycarbonate tube. Foil inductors are mounted by means of a single polycarbonate screw through the central bore, or a silicone elastomer, or a hot-melt adhesive. Foil inductors have obvious advantages over wire-wound inductors in terms of improved electrical and sonic characteristics. This important new development has much to contribute to the design of state-of-the art loudspeaker crossover networks."

"Negligible skin effect below 100 kHz which are many orders of magnitude below conventional wire-wound types. High winding tension and vacuum fusing of faces provide. High dimensional stability, effectively locking the conductors in place. Wire-wound inductors, which allow relative motion of conductors due to electromagnetic forces, will exhibit FM distortion by the process of reactance modulation. Flat inductive reactance from 5 Hz to 50 kHz. No saturation distortion due to air-core design. Inductors contain no magnetic materials. Reduced power loss. Highest space factor (ratio of conductor cross area to total cross-section) means lower DC resistance within comparable dimensions. Negligible power loss due to skin-effect. Extremely low stored charge. Cool operation even during prolonged high output power operation. The high space factor and winding density results in improved heat dissipation."

The above descriptions are from the Madisound site
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Old 21st January 2021, 09:50 AM   #29
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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Satori MR 16 is the one to try to beat
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldspkrguy View Post
maybe the lower DCR is helping the Q?
The speaker doesn't change, and the speaker impedance doesn't change when you add series resistance, but the signal feeding the speaker is divided between the resistance and the speaker impedance.
Quote:
Foil inductors have obvious advantages
This is advertising copy. Some borderline points, some creative repetition, few measurements.

Some of the issues mentioned can be important. It depends on when and how much, but also whether the comparison is to a component that is deficient to begin with.
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Old 21st January 2021, 09:58 AM   #30
42476 is offline 42476
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Well, I meant added DCR affects the Qt. Yes, this is advertising for sure but what I have seen and read in the past was a third party summary and evaluation; I just can't seem to find it just now.
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