I have gone through many horns and compression drivers (CDs) over the last few years. Currently listening to the JBL 2380 horns driven by JBL 2445J drivers with the titanium ribbed diaphragms. Using a passive crossover around 750 Hz with 4th order acoustical slopes to a JBL2226 15" woofer, and FIR correction (amplitude and phase), the sound is just absolutely stunning. The speakers disappear, and you are placed in the recording space, whether it be a studio, concert hall, or church. When you turn it up, it just gets bigger and bigger and bigger.
Now, the 2380/2445 is a decidedly old-school combo, and nothing wrong with that if it works. I have also tried the BMS 4590 dual-diaphragm driver with the 2380 and while the sound is more refined--that last octave of the 2445 titanium diaphragm is a roller coaster--and yet, it does not have the magic of the 2380/2445 combo, where it feels like instruments are being played by real people with a palpable sense of touch. Clearly, there is something to be said about combining the right driver and with the right horn.
There are some complaints about the 2380 on this and other forums, it being a horn with a diffraction slot, which takes pattern control to 16 kHz. I personally do not find anything grossly offending about it. In fact, it sounds quite delightful after proper EQ. I am not blasting it at ear splitting levels.
I've heard people recommend newer horns from 18sound and others on threads here. What combinations of compression drivers (CDs) and horns have people found to work for them? I am especially interested in experiences with newer horn/CD combos.
Now, the 2380/2445 is a decidedly old-school combo, and nothing wrong with that if it works. I have also tried the BMS 4590 dual-diaphragm driver with the 2380 and while the sound is more refined--that last octave of the 2445 titanium diaphragm is a roller coaster--and yet, it does not have the magic of the 2380/2445 combo, where it feels like instruments are being played by real people with a palpable sense of touch. Clearly, there is something to be said about combining the right driver and with the right horn.
There are some complaints about the 2380 on this and other forums, it being a horn with a diffraction slot, which takes pattern control to 16 kHz. I personally do not find anything grossly offending about it. In fact, it sounds quite delightful after proper EQ. I am not blasting it at ear splitting levels.
I've heard people recommend newer horns from 18sound and others on threads here. What combinations of compression drivers (CDs) and horns have people found to work for them? I am especially interested in experiences with newer horn/CD combos.
I wish I had hands on experience with older JBL designs so I could compare them directly to newer stuff. Have heard them in many PA applications.
A lot of stuff sounds pretty good at conversational volume but I've never heard deep diffraction slots sound anything other than decidedly loud and harsh at live sound levels.
I believe you when you say it sounds very good in a home setting. Response looks good on/off axis. Turn it up to 120db at 1m for a large crowd and get ready for headache inducing spl dependent diffraction effects.
I'm currently testing the Ciare PR614(with ND3SN) and I'm impressed. It is deceptively very loud while sounding realistic once mouth diffraction is mitigated with foam and/or round-overs. I suspect a number of modern designs would be similar when properly deployed and processed.
Only bought these because of my current obsession of trying to get a nested horn to work instead of going down the synergy rabbit hole.
Was it you who had the 2384 waveguide at one time? Could it not match your current setup for realism? I would think a 4" beryllium dome on that horn would be about as good as it gets.
A lot of stuff sounds pretty good at conversational volume but I've never heard deep diffraction slots sound anything other than decidedly loud and harsh at live sound levels.
I believe you when you say it sounds very good in a home setting. Response looks good on/off axis. Turn it up to 120db at 1m for a large crowd and get ready for headache inducing spl dependent diffraction effects.
I'm currently testing the Ciare PR614(with ND3SN) and I'm impressed. It is deceptively very loud while sounding realistic once mouth diffraction is mitigated with foam and/or round-overs. I suspect a number of modern designs would be similar when properly deployed and processed.
Only bought these because of my current obsession of trying to get a nested horn to work instead of going down the synergy rabbit hole.
Was it you who had the 2384 waveguide at one time? Could it not match your current setup for realism? I would think a 4" beryllium dome on that horn would be about as good as it gets.
Thanks all! Interesting combos! I've not heard the 2435/2384 combo before.
The amazing thing I found with the BMS4590/JBL2380 combo is that even though it measured very well, had less distortion than the 2445 driver, and had a smoother top octave, it did not have the magic in terms of imaging and making music feel like being played by people. So, there is definitely something to matching the driver to the horn. Just throwing things together does not always work. Without hearing the 2445/2380 combo, I would've thought the BMS was decent. But there is a big gap between sound good and sounding magical.
The amazing thing I found with the BMS4590/JBL2380 combo is that even though it measured very well, had less distortion than the 2445 driver, and had a smoother top octave, it did not have the magic in terms of imaging and making music feel like being played by people. So, there is definitely something to matching the driver to the horn. Just throwing things together does not always work. Without hearing the 2445/2380 combo, I would've thought the BMS was decent. But there is a big gap between sound good and sounding magical.
They are excellent. I had planned to try the HF1440 as well but at this point there's no motivation. Very high resolution driver.
High power measurements in this thread. HF measurements above 20khz are limited by the amp I was using.
18 Sound - ND3ST Compression Driver
High power measurements in this thread. HF measurements above 20khz are limited by the amp I was using.
18 Sound - ND3ST Compression Driver
I keep reading conflicting subjective impressions between rings and domes of all sizes. Not sure what the explanation could be. Only thing I can think of is that domes have a more direct path to the exit than most ring designs.
The Axi2050 was supposed to be ultimate wide band driver yet the couple people who tried it here stuck with the Radian Beryllium. One review on Parts Express prefers it to the 2441 with Beryllium. Alnico does weaken over time though and the phase plug isn't as refined as later designs.
Same story with smaller BMS/B&C rings against domes. Despite measurements being very similar on and off axis, some have a clear preference one way or the other.
The Axi2050 was supposed to be ultimate wide band driver yet the couple people who tried it here stuck with the Radian Beryllium. One review on Parts Express prefers it to the 2441 with Beryllium. Alnico does weaken over time though and the phase plug isn't as refined as later designs.
Same story with smaller BMS/B&C rings against domes. Despite measurements being very similar on and off axis, some have a clear preference one way or the other.
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You may associate the extra "liveliness" of the additional second and third harmonic distortion with live performance.
Most of us with more "age experience" have reduced upper hearing response, those harmonics can add some "magic" that has been lost to the sands of time..
Did you EQ both combos to the same on-axis response?
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Hi Art,
Yes both combos had the same target response and were very close after correction. Tonally they sound the same. You can hear that the BMS has less distortion. There is no extra "liveliness" as you mention with the 2445. It is not a question of frequency response because it doesn't sound brighter. I am talking about the ability to place instruments in space and create a sense of being there and more clearly articulating the texture of different instruments. One would think this would be a function of the frequency response (instrument texture), and I was quite stumped to find out that the BMS just does not do it on the 2380. I tried the two drivers back and forth many times and triple checked the crossover and measurements. And once again, I would not even have noticed it if I just had the BMS because it sounds quite decent.
This is why I was wondering if other folks have similar experiences of favorite combinations of horns and CDs that go beyond what you can see on paper.
Yes both combos had the same target response and were very close after correction. Tonally they sound the same. You can hear that the BMS has less distortion. There is no extra "liveliness" as you mention with the 2445. It is not a question of frequency response because it doesn't sound brighter. I am talking about the ability to place instruments in space and create a sense of being there and more clearly articulating the texture of different instruments. One would think this would be a function of the frequency response (instrument texture), and I was quite stumped to find out that the BMS just does not do it on the 2380. I tried the two drivers back and forth many times and triple checked the crossover and measurements. And once again, I would not even have noticed it if I just had the BMS because it sounds quite decent.
This is why I was wondering if other folks have similar experiences of favorite combinations of horns and CDs that go beyond what you can see on paper.
JBL 2374 and 2384 look similar. Interesting. What is throat size of the 2374?
Westrex 2080/2090 on Altec 1505 horn. I've never heard anything else like it. Of course the driver is near unobotainium, but it has a realism beyond its 288 American brother. Similar to what RA7 says about his JBL, this has lifelike causalities that are hard to match. Real people in a real space playing real instruments.
Was it you who had the 2384 waveguide at one time? Could it not match your current setup for realism? I would think a 4" beryllium dome on that horn would be about as good as it gets.[/QUOTE]
That's probably will be me.
Yes, it's a beautiful match, but there is as always a compromises - top octave.
Cheap 1" driver with aluminum membrane in "Synergy" Renkus-Heinz produce better highs than my 4" beryllium JBL in any horn or WG and equalize is not helping.
I struggle with it for long time: trying different crossover points and orders, different WG, even Synergy type.
Now fighting between two choices: comeback to Synergy based on 2384WG, 2435HPL and 2169HCMCD-81H and add Super tweeter above 8-9Khz, or improving crossover for 2435HPL in 1200hz+ in 5006815WG, bellow gonna be 2169H in huge Cinema WG - forgot the part number.
Even tough the 2169CMCD is the best midrange I had in 20 years, it doesn't impressed me in 15"WG that you can see on photo - no magic there.
One more thing.
In my point of view, or for my ear))) - you can't compare the 2435 sound to Peerless DFM 2544, B&C DE250, Celestion, PRV and other 1-1.5" even from 1500-1800hz - they don't cut it.
Community M200 is very close but it sound less liveliness to me, IMHO.
I was thinking to try new Faital drivers, but already have too many speakers and no more place.
Time to rebuild.
Again)))
That's probably will be me.
Yes, it's a beautiful match, but there is as always a compromises - top octave.
Cheap 1" driver with aluminum membrane in "Synergy" Renkus-Heinz produce better highs than my 4" beryllium JBL in any horn or WG and equalize is not helping.
I struggle with it for long time: trying different crossover points and orders, different WG, even Synergy type.
Now fighting between two choices: comeback to Synergy based on 2384WG, 2435HPL and 2169HCMCD-81H and add Super tweeter above 8-9Khz, or improving crossover for 2435HPL in 1200hz+ in 5006815WG, bellow gonna be 2169H in huge Cinema WG - forgot the part number.
Even tough the 2169CMCD is the best midrange I had in 20 years, it doesn't impressed me in 15"WG that you can see on photo - no magic there.
One more thing.
In my point of view, or for my ear))) - you can't compare the 2435 sound to Peerless DFM 2544, B&C DE250, Celestion, PRV and other 1-1.5" even from 1500-1800hz - they don't cut it.
Community M200 is very close but it sound less liveliness to me, IMHO.
I was thinking to try new Faital drivers, but already have too many speakers and no more place.
Time to rebuild.
Again)))
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2384 with 2435hpl, crossed at 750hz 24db LR (1khz when cranking)
Mcm 54-580 6.5" across 1" threaded horn (pyle ph65, used by zaph) and jbl 2407 crossed 2khz 24db LR
Jbl pth1010hf and jbl 2431h (aluminum, right ?)
Probably any tractrix round (if i could live with decade dispersion) or OS round.
I think conical is an option, assuming not much low freq loading and foam up the mouth.
Mcm 54-580 6.5" across 1" threaded horn (pyle ph65, used by zaph) and jbl 2407 crossed 2khz 24db LR
Jbl pth1010hf and jbl 2431h (aluminum, right ?)
Probably any tractrix round (if i could live with decade dispersion) or OS round.
I think conical is an option, assuming not much low freq loading and foam up the mouth.
I believe you're correct. Misremembered.
Directivity does collapse in the top octave for the 2384. Was hoping it wouldn't be too noticeable.
I have a pair of those small mid waveguides and a pair of the dual driver cinema mid waveguide I haven't tried yet. The small one is indeed undersized for great results.
I'm finding the top octave detail of the 18 Sound/Ciare to be very good. Dispersion is narrow but it hasn't bothered me yet. Was listening to some high dynamic range "hi-fi" tracks last night and was surprised at how refined it sounded.
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