Dear Members,
would you please validate this below design of mine ?
Usage scenario:
- background music on low-medium levels (no primary hi-fi)
- multiroom use: room1 big living room, room2 bedroom
- newly renovated flat, electrician put all cables into the walls already. Unmovable, sadly. Luckily they're standard stranded copper cables with good conductor thickness
- bedroom: 2 upper corners pre-cabled
- living room: 4 upper corners pre-cabled
So, I'm in the adventure of creating a multi-room solution which will involve some kind of miniDSP and 1, max 2 additional "nonintrusive" subwoofers as well, nicely placed here and there.. measuring will decide (UMIK-1 provided).
Tweeters:
I chose the HiVi RT2C-A AMTs, I might rotate them 90° to convert it's wider horizontal dispersion to vertical which might come handy when ceiling-corner mounted. Although from there, pretty much everything in every angle hits a wall/ceiling (which is good in this case at least).
Nominal 8 Ohms, 94dB average, stable impedance (easy on crossover side), planned to be crossed with 3rd order at 2500Hz.
Midwoofers:
Aurum Cantus AC-165. Peak at around 8k - I don't think I should take much care of it with a 18dB/oct slope at 2500Hz, otherwise good feedback so far.
Crossover: I called this site for help .. and made my calculations.
Reading a lot on the internet I think room modes modify a speaker's amplitude response anyway, especially when we talk about bacground music ceiling-cornered speakers with multiple possible listening positions.. so flat amplitude response isn't what I'm striving for, but rather phase and group delay coherency. -> Bessel.
I opted for a 3rd order Bessel, a good compromise to be not yet that complex like an LR4 but still a little bit more steep than a 2nd order classic good-old BW. And then we'll see. (In amplitude response it has -5dB at XO point for each driver so summed up the two, at XO point the system has a +1dB lift which is negligible in my case).
I've never ever heard a Bessel but can change anytime to any other config, for now that's it.
Playing together:
Tweeter is at 94dB average, I calculated 3 types of differently damping L-Pads on this site, for 7.5 Ohms. That will be pretty much exact (seeing the somewhat blurry impedance line of the driver). We'll se which I use - if at all. If corners will lift midbass response to some extent, a slight "V" in the overall SPL curve won't harm anybody, of course this breaks xo symmetry but end result is more important than textbook crossover..
Midbass drivers are at 91dB, a Zobel (series RC in parallel with driver) would take care of flat-ish impedance curve and grant a well funcioning crossover at the XO point, where midbass is at 12Ohms already - and rising. Not sure if I want to overcomplicate this passive xo network with an additional RLC for flattening the impedance peak at the lower region of the woofer. In case of a low damping factor tube amp I'd do so but drive here would be most possibly a TPA3116D2 Class-D with low noise regulated, well damped power supply so I don't think an RLC is needed.
What do you think ? About the whole, limits taken into consideration.
Any detailed advice is welcome, or if you say "great, go ahead, nice plan" - that's welcome as well.
At the end when all drivers are up on the ceiling in the corners, multichannel amplifier built and ready to serve, active subs placed, everything connected.. a small miniDSP solution will handle room modes (especially in the bass region) at the possibly most favourite listening position (big sofa in front of the tv). Another miniDSP doing the same in the bedroom (or even not..).
Mentioning this just for the sake of completeness.
(Multiroom: volumio or roon or picoreplayer, 1 or 2 RPi-s with decent dac hats).
would you please validate this below design of mine ?
Usage scenario:
- background music on low-medium levels (no primary hi-fi)
- multiroom use: room1 big living room, room2 bedroom
- newly renovated flat, electrician put all cables into the walls already. Unmovable, sadly. Luckily they're standard stranded copper cables with good conductor thickness
- bedroom: 2 upper corners pre-cabled
- living room: 4 upper corners pre-cabled
So, I'm in the adventure of creating a multi-room solution which will involve some kind of miniDSP and 1, max 2 additional "nonintrusive" subwoofers as well, nicely placed here and there.. measuring will decide (UMIK-1 provided).
First step is designing the studio/monitor sized passive boxes into the corners.
Can't move them due to fix cabling and aesthetics, it's kind of a luxury home. Woodwork will be done via a professional, lacquer, everything..
My part is to choose drivers, do sizing, port tuning, all this kind of stuff you know. And the crossover. Here I'd like to hear your opinion about what I've chosen to do in the upcoming days. Can't move them due to fix cabling and aesthetics, it's kind of a luxury home. Woodwork will be done via a professional, lacquer, everything..
Tweeters:
I chose the HiVi RT2C-A AMTs, I might rotate them 90° to convert it's wider horizontal dispersion to vertical which might come handy when ceiling-corner mounted. Although from there, pretty much everything in every angle hits a wall/ceiling (which is good in this case at least).
Nominal 8 Ohms, 94dB average, stable impedance (easy on crossover side), planned to be crossed with 3rd order at 2500Hz.
Midwoofers:
Aurum Cantus AC-165. Peak at around 8k - I don't think I should take much care of it with a 18dB/oct slope at 2500Hz, otherwise good feedback so far.
Crossover: I called this site for help .. and made my calculations.
Reading a lot on the internet I think room modes modify a speaker's amplitude response anyway, especially when we talk about bacground music ceiling-cornered speakers with multiple possible listening positions.. so flat amplitude response isn't what I'm striving for, but rather phase and group delay coherency. -> Bessel.
I opted for a 3rd order Bessel, a good compromise to be not yet that complex like an LR4 but still a little bit more steep than a 2nd order classic good-old BW. And then we'll see. (In amplitude response it has -5dB at XO point for each driver so summed up the two, at XO point the system has a +1dB lift which is negligible in my case).
I've never ever heard a Bessel but can change anytime to any other config, for now that's it.
Playing together:
Tweeter is at 94dB average, I calculated 3 types of differently damping L-Pads on this site, for 7.5 Ohms. That will be pretty much exact (seeing the somewhat blurry impedance line of the driver). We'll se which I use - if at all. If corners will lift midbass response to some extent, a slight "V" in the overall SPL curve won't harm anybody, of course this breaks xo symmetry but end result is more important than textbook crossover..
Midbass drivers are at 91dB, a Zobel (series RC in parallel with driver) would take care of flat-ish impedance curve and grant a well funcioning crossover at the XO point, where midbass is at 12Ohms already - and rising. Not sure if I want to overcomplicate this passive xo network with an additional RLC for flattening the impedance peak at the lower region of the woofer. In case of a low damping factor tube amp I'd do so but drive here would be most possibly a TPA3116D2 Class-D with low noise regulated, well damped power supply so I don't think an RLC is needed.
What do you think ? About the whole, limits taken into consideration.
Any detailed advice is welcome, or if you say "great, go ahead, nice plan" - that's welcome as well.
At the end when all drivers are up on the ceiling in the corners, multichannel amplifier built and ready to serve, active subs placed, everything connected.. a small miniDSP solution will handle room modes (especially in the bass region) at the possibly most favourite listening position (big sofa in front of the tv). Another miniDSP doing the same in the bedroom (or even not..).
Mentioning this just for the sake of completeness.
(Multiroom: volumio or roon or picoreplayer, 1 or 2 RPi-s with decent dac hats).
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That could work well. I would keep the tweeter in its vertical orientation. Speakers angled down at 45 degrees of course.
Have you considered a coaxial before? This would be a great application for them. Some examples:
Coaxial speaker Kartesian Cox165_vPA, 8 ohm, 164.5 inch
Coaxial speaker Kartesian Cox120_vHP, 8 ohm, 120 inch
Tang Band W6-2313 6-1/2" Coaxial Full-Range Woofer
Denovo Audio Volt Speaker Kits
Coaxial: Madisound Speaker Components
Have you considered a coaxial before? This would be a great application for them. Some examples:
Coaxial speaker Kartesian Cox165_vPA, 8 ohm, 164.5 inch
Coaxial speaker Kartesian Cox120_vHP, 8 ohm, 120 inch
Tang Band W6-2313 6-1/2" Coaxial Full-Range Woofer
Denovo Audio Volt Speaker Kits
Coaxial: Madisound Speaker Components
Thank you ErnieM, I appreciate you read all this.. 
(bit long)..
Speakers firing 45° downwards, sure. Forgot to say.
Coaxials: yes, considered, but not investigated deeper. I interpret your idea as replacements for the midwoofer (leaving the tweeter intact), instead of a 1-way fullrange usage. She's not an audiophile but likes those very fine highs.
I'll check your links, thanks.
(bit long)..Speakers firing 45° downwards, sure. Forgot to say.
Coaxials: yes, considered, but not investigated deeper. I interpret your idea as replacements for the midwoofer (leaving the tweeter intact), instead of a 1-way fullrange usage. She's not an audiophile but likes those very fine highs.
I'll check your links, thanks.
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Good early morning reading
The coaxials are actually 2-way designs with tweeter sections capable of going high enough for anyone. The advantage is that you'll have very even coverage of the entire area compared to the limited vertical coverage of a two-way design using a ribbon. Also gives you more freedom in trying semi-linear phase crossovers if desired without compromising directivity.
Ribbons/planars are better used in your typical hifi sweet-spot setup. Although I'm sure they would still sound excellent if aimed directly at the main listening area from the front corners.
The coaxials are actually 2-way designs with tweeter sections capable of going high enough for anyone. The advantage is that you'll have very even coverage of the entire area compared to the limited vertical coverage of a two-way design using a ribbon. Also gives you more freedom in trying semi-linear phase crossovers if desired without compromising directivity.
Ribbons/planars are better used in your typical hifi sweet-spot setup. Although I'm sure they would still sound excellent if aimed directly at the main listening area from the front corners.
Also good one
SICA 6.5C1.5CP-8 (Coassiale 6.5"-1", 8 Ohm, 240 Wmax)
And a decent implementation
Projektvorstellung SiK6.5 - Kompaktlautsprecher mit 6,5 Zoll Sica Koax
SICA 6.5C1.5CP-8 (Coassiale 6.5"-1", 8 Ohm, 240 Wmax)
And a decent implementation
Projektvorstellung SiK6.5 - Kompaktlautsprecher mit 6,5 Zoll Sica Koax
I seem to remember an interesting corner speaker concept on here but can't find a link.
It was kind of a synergy style speaker, but using the corner as the 'horn walls' with a tweeter (possibly full range ?) set right in the corner, and 3 larger bass drivers in very slim enclosures on the 2 walls and the floor in this case.
I think it was in a thread that Patrick Bateman / Folgott were involved in.
Not much help I know but maybe someone here remembers the details better than me ?
Rob.
It was kind of a synergy style speaker, but using the corner as the 'horn walls' with a tweeter (possibly full range ?) set right in the corner, and 3 larger bass drivers in very slim enclosures on the 2 walls and the floor in this case.
I think it was in a thread that Patrick Bateman / Folgott were involved in.
Not much help I know but maybe someone here remembers the details better than me ?
Rob.
Thank you all, it was very interesting to read. Now a question from my side, I'm kind of an oldschool guy, please forgive me if it sounds stupid: do these fullrange coaxials have 1 voice coils like good old classic coaxials, or 2 voice coils ?
Looking at the Sica I see a coaxial with 2 voice coils, does this mean I have 4 terminals on the speaker itself ? If not: is any kind of crossover embedded ? If yes: I assume tweeter and the rest have direct connections via 2 terminals each so I still can (and have to) use a passive XO, right ?
Are these tweeters usually decoupled from the main membrane ? (Just sitting in the middle independently while the big membrane moves around it). Because of doppler ..
I just want to understand the basic concept of these 'híbrids' - interesting concepts.
Edit: or am I mixing "fullrange" (1 VC) with coaxials (2 VCs), both animals being still fullrange ?
Looking at the Sica I see a coaxial with 2 voice coils, does this mean I have 4 terminals on the speaker itself ? If not: is any kind of crossover embedded ? If yes: I assume tweeter and the rest have direct connections via 2 terminals each so I still can (and have to) use a passive XO, right ?
Are these tweeters usually decoupled from the main membrane ? (Just sitting in the middle independently while the big membrane moves around it). Because of doppler ..
I just want to understand the basic concept of these 'híbrids' - interesting concepts.
Edit: or am I mixing "fullrange" (1 VC) with coaxials (2 VCs), both animals being still fullrange ?
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^
The Sica coax has a bass-mid cone with 38 mm VC. Embedded in the center, instead of a dustcap, is a 25 mm neo tweeter in a short WG.
So two different drivers, two separate input terminals, needs an external crossover.
The tweeter is stationary, the cone moves, so yes, some Doppler...
Different than a single VC fullranger, yes.
The Sica coax has a bass-mid cone with 38 mm VC. Embedded in the center, instead of a dustcap, is a 25 mm neo tweeter in a short WG.
So two different drivers, two separate input terminals, needs an external crossover.
The tweeter is stationary, the cone moves, so yes, some Doppler...
Different than a single VC fullranger, yes.
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If you choose to use a normal box or a speaker that does not blend with the corner, then it will be beneficial to have directivity for the highs so they do not interfere with the corners. For speakers that "almost" go into corners or near walls. You might also consider the baffle step and midrange cancellations from these reflections.
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