Help me choose a Mid!
UPDATE AT PAGE 11
3way Studio Design
Hi all!!!
I am designing a system for Studio/Mastering duties and I am doubting about what mid-woofer / Midrange to use. I am looking for the most transparent & flat response among the drivers listed below.
A Mid-Woofer/Mid that can reach up to 3Khz as flat as possible, as my goal is to cross the tweeter around 3500hz.
I still have to choose what configuration to use MTM or a Classic 3way design...
I have in my hands:
x2 Eton Orchestra 11-612/C8/50 RP Woofers (91db sens) Fc around 380Hz
x2 Focal TC90TD5 Tweeters (91.5db sens) Fc around 3000/3500Hz
Options
For MTM
- Eton Orchestra 5-612 (88db sens)
- Scanspeak Classic P17WJ00 6.5" Woofer 8Ohms (88db sens)
- Scanspeak Discovery 15W/8434G00 Midwoofer (87db sens)
Is it true that I get +6db sens when summing two drivers? I actually measured this with two other drivers I have at home, in cabinet, and when summing a 2nd woofer, signal at 1 meter measures around +6db. But I have seen people here that swears its just 3db? I am confused about that...
For 3Way Classic
- Scanspeak Revelator 18M/4631T 7" Midrange (92dB Sens)
- Scanspeak Discovery D7608/920010 MidDome (92db sens) (used by PMC)
- Satori MW19P-4 7.5 Mid Woofer (91.5db sens)
Till know, I am leaning to an MTM design. Although I am also tempted with the idea of using the SS Mid Dome, but I don´t know if it can perform well at mid low frequencies. PMC says it´s cutted at 380Hz? But Fs is 300? pretty close :/
I would really appreciate some input.
Thank you all!
UPDATE AT PAGE 11
3way Studio Design
Hi all!!!
I am designing a system for Studio/Mastering duties and I am doubting about what mid-woofer / Midrange to use. I am looking for the most transparent & flat response among the drivers listed below.
A Mid-Woofer/Mid that can reach up to 3Khz as flat as possible, as my goal is to cross the tweeter around 3500hz.
I still have to choose what configuration to use MTM or a Classic 3way design...
I have in my hands:
x2 Eton Orchestra 11-612/C8/50 RP Woofers (91db sens) Fc around 380Hz
x2 Focal TC90TD5 Tweeters (91.5db sens) Fc around 3000/3500Hz
Options
For MTM
- Eton Orchestra 5-612 (88db sens)
- Scanspeak Classic P17WJ00 6.5" Woofer 8Ohms (88db sens)
- Scanspeak Discovery 15W/8434G00 Midwoofer (87db sens)
Is it true that I get +6db sens when summing two drivers? I actually measured this with two other drivers I have at home, in cabinet, and when summing a 2nd woofer, signal at 1 meter measures around +6db. But I have seen people here that swears its just 3db? I am confused about that...
For 3Way Classic
- Scanspeak Revelator 18M/4631T 7" Midrange (92dB Sens)
- Scanspeak Discovery D7608/920010 MidDome (92db sens) (used by PMC)
- Satori MW19P-4 7.5 Mid Woofer (91.5db sens)
Till know, I am leaning to an MTM design. Although I am also tempted with the idea of using the SS Mid Dome, but I don´t know if it can perform well at mid low frequencies. PMC says it´s cutted at 380Hz? But Fs is 300? pretty close :/
I would really appreciate some input.
Thank you all!
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There are 2 rules of thumb that might be helpful to know.
1. The 45 degree off-axis response at the xo frequency for your mid or mid/woofer should not exceed 3dB below the on-axis response.
2. In an MTM, the center to center spacing of the 2 woofers or mid/woofers shouldn't exceed 1 wavelength of your xo frequency. So if you want to cross at 3500Hz, that will have a wavelength of 3.86" which means that a 6.5" or 7.5" driver would be way out of the question. Even two 3" drivers with a tweeter in between them won't meet that criteria but will definitely come closer (well maybe with a 1/2" tweeter that has virtually no extra face plate).
Both of these rules are frequently broken but for higher quality speakers demanding greater accuracy, I would try my best to meet them. For MTM's you typically are going to need a tweeter that can cross a fair bit lower than your present target depending of course on the mid/woofer size selected. Steeper xo slopes may help too.
If you wire 2 of the same drivers in parallel (not series) then indeed you will gain 6dB in SPL. In series, you gain nothing.
1. The 45 degree off-axis response at the xo frequency for your mid or mid/woofer should not exceed 3dB below the on-axis response.
2. In an MTM, the center to center spacing of the 2 woofers or mid/woofers shouldn't exceed 1 wavelength of your xo frequency. So if you want to cross at 3500Hz, that will have a wavelength of 3.86" which means that a 6.5" or 7.5" driver would be way out of the question. Even two 3" drivers with a tweeter in between them won't meet that criteria but will definitely come closer (well maybe with a 1/2" tweeter that has virtually no extra face plate).
Both of these rules are frequently broken but for higher quality speakers demanding greater accuracy, I would try my best to meet them. For MTM's you typically are going to need a tweeter that can cross a fair bit lower than your present target depending of course on the mid/woofer size selected. Steeper xo slopes may help too.
If you wire 2 of the same drivers in parallel (not series) then indeed you will gain 6dB in SPL. In series, you gain nothing.
Hi jReave!
I know some MTM theory, and yes... I am aware i have to cross the tweeter much lower... I can get rid of the focal and buy a ScanSpeak Discovery R2604/8330 for this... I might get it to cross around 1800hz...
What about a 3 way classic with:
- 1 Eton
- 1 Scanspeak Revelator 18M/4631T 7" Midrange
- 1 Focal
Does it look a better system than the MTM with all SS?
Cheers!
I know some MTM theory, and yes... I am aware i have to cross the tweeter much lower... I can get rid of the focal and buy a ScanSpeak Discovery R2604/8330 for this... I might get it to cross around 1800hz...
What about a 3 way classic with:
- 1 Eton
- 1 Scanspeak Revelator 18M/4631T 7" Midrange
- 1 Focal
Does it look a better system than the MTM with all SS?
Cheers!
Take a close look at the the off-axis response for that driver. It's hitting -3dB at just 30 degrees at about 2500Hz. And it looks doubtful that the on-axis FR is flat enough to make a 3500Hz xo point possible anyways. Not sure on that. I'd have to do the sims to know for sure which is something that I always recommend before making any purchases anyways.
Have a look at some classic 3-ways - pretty rare I think to find a 7" mid. More like 3" or 4" instead.
These come to mind:
Eton 3-212/C8/25 HEX Bass-Midrange
Scanspeak Discovery 10F/8414G-10 4" Full Range: Madisound Speaker Components I think there are a few different versions of these so look around if you can.
Maybe the Satori Satori MR13P-8 5" Egyptian Papyrus Cone Midrange - 8 ohm or maybe one of the SB15's as well, though they all seem to suffer from that mid valley too frequently although everyone seems to say it doesn't matter.
If you can find them, the BG Neo 8 or Neo 10 planar mids might do the job very nicely too.
For lower xo tweeters, look at SB Acoustic. Pretty hard to beat what they are doing. If that SS R2604 is anything like its cousin, the Vifa XT25 tweeters, they do sound great if used properly but the key is to keep the xo point above about 2500Hz or so because harmonic distortion starts rising below about 2-3kHz.
Personally I think a 3-way is the better choice because of the more extended bass response among other reasons. Not that I know much about studio monitors but I would prefer for the mid to not have to deal with large cone excursion from the LF's at the same time. More specialized drivers for each frequency range in other words.
Have a look at some classic 3-ways - pretty rare I think to find a 7" mid. More like 3" or 4" instead.
These come to mind:
Eton 3-212/C8/25 HEX Bass-Midrange
Scanspeak Discovery 10F/8414G-10 4" Full Range: Madisound Speaker Components I think there are a few different versions of these so look around if you can.
Maybe the Satori Satori MR13P-8 5" Egyptian Papyrus Cone Midrange - 8 ohm or maybe one of the SB15's as well, though they all seem to suffer from that mid valley too frequently although everyone seems to say it doesn't matter.
If you can find them, the BG Neo 8 or Neo 10 planar mids might do the job very nicely too.
For lower xo tweeters, look at SB Acoustic. Pretty hard to beat what they are doing. If that SS R2604 is anything like its cousin, the Vifa XT25 tweeters, they do sound great if used properly but the key is to keep the xo point above about 2500Hz or so because harmonic distortion starts rising below about 2-3kHz.
Personally I think a 3-way is the better choice because of the more extended bass response among other reasons. Not that I know much about studio monitors but I would prefer for the mid to not have to deal with large cone excursion from the LF's at the same time. More specialized drivers for each frequency range in other words.
Building on what jReave has said:
I am very enthusiastic about the SB ceramic drivers [https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/352767-active-3-hypex-sb.html]. For the price they are astoundingly good. Even if they were twice the price, they would still be competitive.
A 3 way designed around the SB 15CAC-30 (5 inch ceramic/aluminum driver) and the SB26CDC (1 inch ceramic aluminum dome tweeter), combined with a good woofer system, will be hard to beat. I would shoot for a 2k to 2.5k crossover with 4th order acoustic slopes. The SB15CAC driver is pistonic up to about 7k. This is what makes this driver so revealing, so detailed and yet so smooth. But you will need to tame that 7k resonance.
A good 10 or 12 inch woofer would be a good choice, crossing to the SB15CAC at about 300 Hz.
Using a pair of woofers can make the transition from 4 pi to 2 pi a little less complicated. A pair of 8 inch woofers would seem an obvious choice, as would a pair of 10 inch if you have the room. SBA has some really good 8 inch and 10 inch drivers, but there are a lot of good choices here.
I am very enthusiastic about the SB ceramic drivers [https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/352767-active-3-hypex-sb.html]. For the price they are astoundingly good. Even if they were twice the price, they would still be competitive.
A 3 way designed around the SB 15CAC-30 (5 inch ceramic/aluminum driver) and the SB26CDC (1 inch ceramic aluminum dome tweeter), combined with a good woofer system, will be hard to beat. I would shoot for a 2k to 2.5k crossover with 4th order acoustic slopes. The SB15CAC driver is pistonic up to about 7k. This is what makes this driver so revealing, so detailed and yet so smooth. But you will need to tame that 7k resonance.
A good 10 or 12 inch woofer would be a good choice, crossing to the SB15CAC at about 300 Hz.
Using a pair of woofers can make the transition from 4 pi to 2 pi a little less complicated. A pair of 8 inch woofers would seem an obvious choice, as would a pair of 10 inch if you have the room. SBA has some really good 8 inch and 10 inch drivers, but there are a lot of good choices here.
PHL 6.5".
Leave marketing a side - no Scan Speak or Focal can compete with it. Yes, I had Scanspeak Revelator, Discovery and so on))).
In my experience any mid range driver with efficiency lower then 96dB sound anemic. IMHO.
Those PHL has very clear and open sound with lot's of resolution and dynamic.
Leave marketing a side - no Scan Speak or Focal can compete with it. Yes, I had Scanspeak Revelator, Discovery and so on))).
In my experience any mid range driver with efficiency lower then 96dB sound anemic. IMHO.
Those PHL has very clear and open sound with lot's of resolution and dynamic.
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Hey jReave!!!
Thats really usefull! Honestly I was driving myself nuts trying to take a desition. I always loved MTM designs buy honestly, I feel more connected working in a classic 3way. I don´t know why, may be because of the relation of drivers positions regarding to working frecuency range.
I was just looking at the Satori MR13P-4. But its only 30w RMS? Won´t do for me I guess. Something around 60w? Not that I use all that power all the time, but when clients come to the studio to take a listen to, I do need some extra push.
Also, sensibility... I am trying to get all around 91 minimum to match with the tweeter and eton woofer.
The Eton mid I actually heard it and its amazing! great detail and transient response. But it´s only 87dbsens :/
I am trying to find a Mid with:
91 db sens, 60wrms (minimum), flat and transparent as possible.
What about the Scanspeak Discovery D7608/9200-10 3" Dome Midrange
Its 92 db, 80wrms... And has been used on various PMC models.
Not the best off-axis response, but... did anyone work with it?
Man this forum rocks! I am learning so much! thank you guys!
Hey grec!
you are going to laugh, but acually my Focal righ now it´s working with a PHL MidWoofer.
But it isn´t that model...
It´s PHL 2011 at 16ohms, 94db sens, 8inch, and a really weird response above 1.5khz. Thats why I want to change it.
Although, out of 1.5khz, the rest of the spectrum is tremendous! Really detailed mids, not tiring at all, and super easy to work with...
I´ll attach some data from it
Audax? Anyone heard them too?
Seems to me you are making your life more difficult by sticking with a tweeter that must be crossed high. Change the tweeter and you will open yourself up to so many potential candidates that won't work right now. Just a thought anyways.
When someone thinks that they need to have all the same sensitivity in their driver selections, that tells me that they are either building in-wall speakers or they don't know what baffle step loss is. So if your speakers are going to sit out from the walls of your studio, the lower frequencies will lose 6dB as those lower frequencies will wrap around the speakers and play in 360 degrees whereas the higher frequencies will just play in the forward direction into 180 degrees. More info here and here (ignore the filters, they are unimportant) and here in post #6.
That means that in theory 1 of your 11" Etons is only going to produce a speaker with sensitivity of around 85dB. In reality, this can vary depending on a few factors so it's more likely to be around 88dB or maybe 89dB. Any matching mid and tweeter with higher sensitivity are going to need to be padded down to match this level. So your current sensitivity requirements for your mid seem suspect to me. Unless.....
The most common solution to counteract this 6dB loss is to run 2 woofers in parallel which gives you, wait for it..... an additional 6dB and now you are back to the original 91dB.
Another note on sensitivity: don't be fooled by simply relying on the what the driver spec sheet says. Sometimes it will be right and sometimes not so much. You need to look at the FR and see what the level is within the frequency range in which you will be using the driver. Sometimes it will actually be more. More frequently it will be a little less. Take a look at the 5" Eton you listed in your 1st post - listed at 88dB, it's more like 85dB up around 2-3kHz where you will need to cross it over. Again, I never buy a driver without doing the sims to see how everything is going to work together.
Something else to note is that in a 3-way, your mid will typically gain a couple of dB due to the midrange peaking you typically get from baffle diffraction (that will depend on your baffle width) as well as from the overlap of both the woofer and the tweeter, depending of course on the steepness of the xo's you choose.
It may be helpful to also figure out what your minimum SPL target is for your specific listening distance. 95dB is pretty freaking loud but maybe you want just a little more headroom or maybe just a little more output. In which case you might need to go with multiples of the same drivers or with very high sensitivity pro drivers. In the later case, a 3-way classic should work but in the former case, neither an MTM nor a 3-way classic may be able to do the job. You might need to consider combining them and going with an MTM for the top half (hint, hint with 2 x Satori MR13P-4) and a pair of woofers for the bottom half. Note also that sensitivity is for a distance of 1m. Out in free space, you will lose 6dB every time you double that distance. In an enclosed room, you are more likely to only lose about 3 or maybe 4dB instead. So for eg, if you choose drivers with a max SPL of 105dB at 1m after baffle step loss, and if your listening position is about 3m back, you're probably going to lose about 5dB or so and end up with about a 100dB max instead. Too loud for me btw but to each his own.
Can't say I like the looks of that SS dome FR - not a wide enough usable frequency range to match with an 11" woofer for me. I consider it more suited instead for a 4-way application. And both the falling HF response and the poor off-axis response don't lend themselves to a very high xo point. Haven't heard it though. It may sound great within its limits.
hifijim nailed the SB15CAC driver that I was thinking about. That one is making a lot of people happy lately. Usable sensitivity is up around 90dB, baffle diffraction peaking from a wide baffle will help to fill in the small droop in the FR below about 1000Hz, there is no problem with a xo up at 3 or 3.5kHz and it will handle 50W no problem.
Just a few thoughts anyways.
When someone thinks that they need to have all the same sensitivity in their driver selections, that tells me that they are either building in-wall speakers or they don't know what baffle step loss is. So if your speakers are going to sit out from the walls of your studio, the lower frequencies will lose 6dB as those lower frequencies will wrap around the speakers and play in 360 degrees whereas the higher frequencies will just play in the forward direction into 180 degrees. More info here and here (ignore the filters, they are unimportant) and here in post #6.
That means that in theory 1 of your 11" Etons is only going to produce a speaker with sensitivity of around 85dB. In reality, this can vary depending on a few factors so it's more likely to be around 88dB or maybe 89dB. Any matching mid and tweeter with higher sensitivity are going to need to be padded down to match this level. So your current sensitivity requirements for your mid seem suspect to me. Unless.....
The most common solution to counteract this 6dB loss is to run 2 woofers in parallel which gives you, wait for it..... an additional 6dB and now you are back to the original 91dB.
Another note on sensitivity: don't be fooled by simply relying on the what the driver spec sheet says. Sometimes it will be right and sometimes not so much. You need to look at the FR and see what the level is within the frequency range in which you will be using the driver. Sometimes it will actually be more. More frequently it will be a little less. Take a look at the 5" Eton you listed in your 1st post - listed at 88dB, it's more like 85dB up around 2-3kHz where you will need to cross it over. Again, I never buy a driver without doing the sims to see how everything is going to work together.
Something else to note is that in a 3-way, your mid will typically gain a couple of dB due to the midrange peaking you typically get from baffle diffraction (that will depend on your baffle width) as well as from the overlap of both the woofer and the tweeter, depending of course on the steepness of the xo's you choose.
It may be helpful to also figure out what your minimum SPL target is for your specific listening distance. 95dB is pretty freaking loud but maybe you want just a little more headroom or maybe just a little more output. In which case you might need to go with multiples of the same drivers or with very high sensitivity pro drivers. In the later case, a 3-way classic should work but in the former case, neither an MTM nor a 3-way classic may be able to do the job. You might need to consider combining them and going with an MTM for the top half (hint, hint with 2 x Satori MR13P-4) and a pair of woofers for the bottom half. Note also that sensitivity is for a distance of 1m. Out in free space, you will lose 6dB every time you double that distance. In an enclosed room, you are more likely to only lose about 3 or maybe 4dB instead. So for eg, if you choose drivers with a max SPL of 105dB at 1m after baffle step loss, and if your listening position is about 3m back, you're probably going to lose about 5dB or so and end up with about a 100dB max instead. Too loud for me btw but to each his own.
Can't say I like the looks of that SS dome FR - not a wide enough usable frequency range to match with an 11" woofer for me. I consider it more suited instead for a 4-way application. And both the falling HF response and the poor off-axis response don't lend themselves to a very high xo point. Haven't heard it though. It may sound great within its limits.
hifijim nailed the SB15CAC driver that I was thinking about. That one is making a lot of people happy lately. Usable sensitivity is up around 90dB, baffle diffraction peaking from a wide baffle will help to fill in the small droop in the FR below about 1000Hz, there is no problem with a xo up at 3 or 3.5kHz and it will handle 50W no problem.
Just a few thoughts anyways.
That´s just so educative! thank you so much!... You you actually cleared a lot of doubts I had...
I knew about baffle step, but didn´t think it was going to be so crucial. I though it could be compensated with the enclosure.
I do know about diffraction, and have been keeping it in mind. Actually I was thinking about making an enclosure design for the tweeter and mid like Lipinski/Dunlavy do.
So, by this; I can start thinking about different mid options, at let´s say, 89db? Taking into account that Baffle Step in reality comes down around 2 o 3 db?
I can change the tweeter... I have the Focal TC90TD5 in my hands, but honestly if I can find a better Mid-Hi combo for the 3Way, I´ll leave it for another project...
What about something like this? I could need a little more work on the crossover, only adjusting tweeter sensitivity, and also taking into account a larger woofer.
SS-3WC-C-Eton-4-300-25Hex
I knew about baffle step, but didn´t think it was going to be so crucial. I though it could be compensated with the enclosure.
I do know about diffraction, and have been keeping it in mind. Actually I was thinking about making an enclosure design for the tweeter and mid like Lipinski/Dunlavy do.
So, by this; I can start thinking about different mid options, at let´s say, 89db? Taking into account that Baffle Step in reality comes down around 2 o 3 db?
I can change the tweeter... I have the Focal TC90TD5 in my hands, but honestly if I can find a better Mid-Hi combo for the 3Way, I´ll leave it for another project...
What about something like this? I could need a little more work on the crossover, only adjusting tweeter sensitivity, and also taking into account a larger woofer.
SS-3WC-C-Eton-4-300-25Hex
Ohhh yesss!!! I would love to have a pair...
I heard the VM527 a couple of weeks ago and really liked it. really fast, great transients...
Love Volts, although to expensive... Honestly I can spend around $150 for each mid...
I believe there has to be lots of options that can really beat on the mid´s without spending a fortune... may be I am wrong?
I have been doing some research and got thrilled when I discover what drivers are inside some Studio Monitors. Many of them I used for years.
I heard the VM527 a couple of weeks ago and really liked it. really fast, great transients...
Love Volts, although to expensive... Honestly I can spend around $150 for each mid...
I believe there has to be lots of options that can really beat on the mid´s without spending a fortune... may be I am wrong?
I have been doing some research and got thrilled when I discover what drivers are inside some Studio Monitors. Many of them I used for years.
Yup that Eton 4" looks like a good candidate if you think it will meet your SPL requirements. The spec sheet doesn't give the off-axis response but it would have to be doing something very wrong if it couldn't be crossed over up around 3kHz.
Looking at that Scan + Eton classic 3-way design, notice in the graph beside the xo schematic how the mid summed response is a couple of dB higher than the mid response by itself which is what I was trying to mention before, and that it's padded down as well. Also note where the xo points are, especially for that SS tweeter - keeping it high to keep it sounding good.
The Morel dome looks good too. I wonder what its clarity and transparency is like?
Looking at that Scan + Eton classic 3-way design, notice in the graph beside the xo schematic how the mid summed response is a couple of dB higher than the mid response by itself which is what I was trying to mention before, and that it's padded down as well. Also note where the xo points are, especially for that SS tweeter - keeping it high to keep it sounding good.
The Morel dome looks good too. I wonder what its clarity and transparency is like?
Its a great reference! I can see it´s cutted around 1.8/2khz... My idea if possible with the scanspeak it´s to cut it higher, maybe 3k?
I can see you point on the mid! true that it´s a little higher than itself... So i´ll look for mids around 88/89 db to mach with the 2 db loss of baffle step. Takin into account that in might get a bump while working with in in the crossover...
I was looking around for some models and run out with the Morel.
Sounds like a nice looking and sounding idea to have a 3 Way Studio Monitor with mid-dome...
But I am not sure I heard them. I did listen to a lot of Dynaudio Studio speakers... Not sure if anyone of those are using this Morel Mid.
anyone worked with them?
I can see you point on the mid! true that it´s a little higher than itself... So i´ll look for mids around 88/89 db to mach with the 2 db loss of baffle step. Takin into account that in might get a bump while working with in in the crossover...
I was looking around for some models and run out with the Morel.
Sounds like a nice looking and sounding idea to have a 3 Way Studio Monitor with mid-dome...
But I am not sure I heard them. I did listen to a lot of Dynaudio Studio speakers... Not sure if anyone of those are using this Morel Mid.
anyone worked with them?