So you think pro drivers don’t perform like hifi drivers? Well, think again, that 6ND outperforms most hifi 6,5” drivers with regard to mid performance. And since you are planning to use 2 (two) 11” drivers for bass that you probably want to cross at about 380Hz all drivers with less volume displacement and power handling than about this 6ND aren’t worth considering imho.
[Edit]Oh and did I mention this one is within your budget?
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I do!
If I´am actually using a PHL 2011 In a 2way with a Focal tweeter... Sounds really good, don´t get me wrong, but it´s just not what I am looking for right now. I had this system for ten good years at my studio but it´s a moment to change.
My plan is to use only one 11" woofer per side, not two
...
So, as the Eton woofer is 91db sens, as far as I understand, I should try to get a Midrange at about 89db sens to compensate for baffle loss.
I was just thinking...
The Morel Mid EM1308 has a Fs of 320, theorically. Can it be crossed around 400hz? lets say with an 18db/oct? So it can attenuate it as much as possible?
I see Volts Mids Fs, and are around 500. Usually crossed at 380Hz!!!!
I know the Morels might don´t get to the same Volv Quality, but
Thoughts?
If I´am actually using a PHL 2011 In a 2way with a Focal tweeter... Sounds really good, don´t get me wrong, but it´s just not what I am looking for right now. I had this system for ten good years at my studio but it´s a moment to change.
My plan is to use only one 11" woofer per side, not two
...So, as the Eton woofer is 91db sens, as far as I understand, I should try to get a Midrange at about 89db sens to compensate for baffle loss.
I was just thinking...
The Morel Mid EM1308 has a Fs of 320, theorically. Can it be crossed around 400hz? lets say with an 18db/oct? So it can attenuate it as much as possible?
I see Volts Mids Fs, and are around 500. Usually crossed at 380Hz!!!!
I know the Morels might don´t get to the same Volv Quality, but
Thoughts?
Regarding sensitivity, you'll have to start by looking at the woofer, which is usually the limiting factor.
The next step is to consider baffle diffraction loss. At low frequencies below the baffle step (4pi radiation), you'll loose about 6 dB relative to the frequency range above the baffle step (2pi radiation).
For illustration, assume the following example:
I guess others will chime in and say that the baffle step may not be as large as 6dB in real-world situation where speakers are used in a room, because room gain will "fix" the baffle step. That may be true to some extent if the speakers sit in/at a wall. However, this is very rarely the case. Once there is some air between the wall(s) and the loudspeaker, the baffle step is there, and you will loose some of the woofers sensitivity spec, which is a 2pi number.
To make a long story short: I think you shouldn't be too concerned about the sensitivity spec of your midrange driver. The vast majority of the midrange drivers out there will be loud enough for a typical 10-12" woofer.
The next step is to consider baffle diffraction loss. At low frequencies below the baffle step (4pi radiation), you'll loose about 6 dB relative to the frequency range above the baffle step (2pi radiation).
For illustration, assume the following example:
- The woofer is specified for 91 dB/1m/2.83V into 2pi
- Baffe step is centered around 300 Hz, but extends from 50 Hz to 2 kHz
- x-over between the woofer and the midrange driver is at 300 Hz
I guess others will chime in and say that the baffle step may not be as large as 6dB in real-world situation where speakers are used in a room, because room gain will "fix" the baffle step. That may be true to some extent if the speakers sit in/at a wall. However, this is very rarely the case. Once there is some air between the wall(s) and the loudspeaker, the baffle step is there, and you will loose some of the woofers sensitivity spec, which is a 2pi number.
To make a long story short: I think you shouldn't be too concerned about the sensitivity spec of your midrange driver. The vast majority of the midrange drivers out there will be loud enough for a typical 10-12" woofer.
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Mike
Attached are some measurements for Eton 11-581-50 Hex. It is not the same as your model but are very similar except for the Hex's 2 KHz peak.
1. Factory curve, shows FR from 300 Hz and at 0, 15 and 30 degrees, 60- 110 dB scale, presumably this is an open air wide baffle measurement;
2. The driver in a 65L box, aperiodic, with 33 x 77 cm front baffle, shown from 300 Hz and same 60 -110 dB scale;
3. Same as above but shown from 20 Hz so you have full picture of what's happening with the "sensitivity" with a real box and a baffle step.
4. Lastly, the unit is low-passed at 290 Hz with LR24 acoustical target. Shows the actual level which will then be merged with whatever mid you decide upon. The level in this case is about 85/86 dB, so anything above should work (but there are many variables beside the level in dB per se).
Attached are some measurements for Eton 11-581-50 Hex. It is not the same as your model but are very similar except for the Hex's 2 KHz peak.
1. Factory curve, shows FR from 300 Hz and at 0, 15 and 30 degrees, 60- 110 dB scale, presumably this is an open air wide baffle measurement;
2. The driver in a 65L box, aperiodic, with 33 x 77 cm front baffle, shown from 300 Hz and same 60 -110 dB scale;
3. Same as above but shown from 20 Hz so you have full picture of what's happening with the "sensitivity" with a real box and a baffle step.
4. Lastly, the unit is low-passed at 290 Hz with LR24 acoustical target. Shows the actual level which will then be merged with whatever mid you decide upon. The level in this case is about 85/86 dB, so anything above should work (but there are many variables beside the level in dB per se).
Attachments
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Excellent drivers. Clean and clear, lots of useful excursion, T/S balanced for compact boxes, and take 500w+ without flinching.
I have a pair in PA speakers. Lovely little boxes.
Chris
PS - I believe there are some measurements at Zaph Audio. Distortion levels are world-class.
Well, since the OP seems to care little about distortion figures, I won't push any further.
Yes, for sure, you'll need only one capacitor for that, be it that f-3dB will be down a bit. Trouble is you'll wreck the unit, better go active and cross it likewise. The data sheet says 500-5000Hz, but with a 11" bass that needs some salt. 700-800Hz would be lowest and since the Eton has a nasty breakup at under 2k, this is not an option altogether.
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This "factory curve" says dB-SPL/1m/1W, so it relates to efficiency (power). The reminder of your post seems to be about sensitivity, which is a voltage thing (not power). You may have to convert that factory curve to a voltage sensitivity curve first.
I might have to go with a classic 5" midwoofer/midrange then. To bad, I was really exited about using a dome for the mid... I can´t make it to the Volts haha!
Of course I do care about distortion figures, this system it´s aimed to be in a Recording Studio. But now that I can look up for different mids, there is no point of going that hi in sensitivity with a mid. Pro Audio gear usually tends to have higher sensitivity, for sure low distortion (if it´s a good model/brand), and high power. Not needing this as I cleared out my doubts about BaffleLoss. Not that I don´t like the idea but maybe I can get something smaller, like a 5inch midwoofer. Seems more suitable to mach with a 11". Not that is impossible with a 6.5", but I rather have the tweeter and mid as close as possible.
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Draki!
This is so usefull! It´s exactly what I wanted to know... I was looking for mids from 89/90 db Up... By this my search range is wider!
Great to know you liked Eton! I was planning on cutting it at 380Hz, but I saw you got good results at 290... I might think about that going that way...
This is a good catch. I missed it. Unibox gives the sensitivity to be 92.2dB at 1m with 2.83V. So add another dB or so to your mid sensitivity requirements.
Re baffle step loss - indeed proximity to boundary walls and floor can affect how much compensation is needed but so too can your box width, box tuning and xo choices.
For eg, if you model that woofer in 50L tuned to 40Hz, you get a small 1.5dB increase in LF output. Then you add in the full 6dB of baffle diffraction from a 14" x 21" front baffle with the woofer centered 7" from the bottom and you get the blue trace in pic 1 below. If you then go with a passive xo aimed at about 600Hz, you get the black curve and a couple of dB more again in the low end due to the interaction between the driver's impedance resonance peak and the xo. Speaker sensitivity would end up being about 88.5dB or so.
If that LF gain due to the xo isn't desired then an impedance compensation notch will keep it down and then you get something like the 2nd pic which will give you a sensitivity of about 87dB.
Doing a quick sim with that woofer made me wonder btw if a lower xo point down around 300Hz may not be optimal with a passive xo because it might need a very large capacitor to ground to make it work. Which means wasted power and an inefficient speaker. Just something to consider as you look for a mid.
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Thanks jReave !
You are really helping me a lot...
I made some simulations with Unibox, and ended up with a 80L box tuned at 31Hz, with F3 at 30Hz... My idea is to get as low as possible without compromising transients too much...
I actually heard the Eton 11" with a 100L Box, and got really deep, but not fast at all. Then I heard it with an 60L box and sounded too explosive! I´ll try with 80L and see what happens...
It´s true that I´ll need larger caps in a low frecuency cut, I´ll really keep that in mind... May be stick to a good midrange that can manage from 380hz to 2/3Khz as flat as possible...
About my room: Is´t really well treated, a little dry, but it was intended to be that way. Behind the walls, and corners there is glass and rock wool for containing standing waves... Also, there is one bass tramp in the ceiling... So, everything that comes from the "source", to the sweet spot it´s really controlled.
I try different monitors in the room and it´s noticeable how each of them reacts in a different way.
I´ll leave you a photo so you have a reference... I am pretty sure I´ll listen to baffle loss here haha!
BTW, I think i am really getting into the Satori Line fro my project. they look promising.
You are really helping me a lot...
I made some simulations with Unibox, and ended up with a 80L box tuned at 31Hz, with F3 at 30Hz... My idea is to get as low as possible without compromising transients too much...
I actually heard the Eton 11" with a 100L Box, and got really deep, but not fast at all. Then I heard it with an 60L box and sounded too explosive! I´ll try with 80L and see what happens...
It´s true that I´ll need larger caps in a low frecuency cut, I´ll really keep that in mind... May be stick to a good midrange that can manage from 380hz to 2/3Khz as flat as possible...
About my room: Is´t really well treated, a little dry, but it was intended to be that way. Behind the walls, and corners there is glass and rock wool for containing standing waves... Also, there is one bass tramp in the ceiling... So, everything that comes from the "source", to the sweet spot it´s really controlled.
I try different monitors in the room and it´s noticeable how each of them reacts in a different way.
I´ll leave you a photo so you have a reference... I am pretty sure I´ll listen to baffle loss here haha!
BTW, I think i am really getting into the Satori Line fro my project. they look promising.
Attachments
Man I feel like a pin pong ball here.
So LF's should wrap around the speakers completely and be well attenuated so I think you're back to the full 6dB of baffle step loss mitigated by some of the factors I've described.
I have recommended the Satoris to many posters before but for your purposes, for the purposes of monitoring, that suck out right around 1800Hz bothers me. I don't really know but I would think you might be after a flatter response.
You were interested in the 6.5" Revelator to start off with. How about 1 of the 5" ones? Very revealing from personal experience. The FR may not look appealing at 1st glance but the xo actually easily smooths it out and it can hand over the the SS D2604 up around 2800Hz without a problem. Handles lots of power and the 4ohm versions are up at 90dB sensitivity.
So LF's should wrap around the speakers completely and be well attenuated so I think you're back to the full 6dB of baffle step loss mitigated by some of the factors I've described.
I have recommended the Satoris to many posters before but for your purposes, for the purposes of monitoring, that suck out right around 1800Hz bothers me. I don't really know but I would think you might be after a flatter response.
You were interested in the 6.5" Revelator to start off with. How about 1 of the 5" ones? Very revealing from personal experience. The FR may not look appealing at 1st glance but the xo actually easily smooths it out and it can hand over the the SS D2604 up around 2800Hz without a problem. Handles lots of power and the 4ohm versions are up at 90dB sensitivity.
Haha!
Ok! I was totally confused when you told me to stick to the 90dbsens mid. We are back again at the 6db loss.
I got recommended the Satori by many people. They do have that deep at 1800hz, but maybe inaudible? The rest of the spectrum loos promising.
Honestly, I could sacrifice some freq response if i get a more transparent driver. No color, low distortion.
Ok! I was totally confused when you told me to stick to the 90dbsens mid. We are back again at the 6db loss.
I got recommended the Satori by many people. They do have that deep at 1800hz, but maybe inaudible? The rest of the spectrum loos promising.
Honestly, I could sacrifice some freq response if i get a more transparent driver. No color, low distortion.
Why don't you pick out 2 or 3 candidates and do the full sims on them. That may give you some deeper info to make a decision with. And maybe a tweeter that can cross down at about 1800Hz with the Satori would be a better combination with that one. Maybe a Satori tweeter if it's not too much $$$.