Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

First time DIY - Reality check
First time DIY - Reality check
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 30th June 2020, 02:33 AM   #1
S4dp is offline S4dp
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Smile First time DIY - Reality check

Hey guys, first time DIY here.

A small backstory and goals for my project..

I currently own a pair of B&W 705 s2 bookshelfs, they do sound good (very revealing and transparent) but I'd want something else and that something
is dynamics and midbass presence. I recognize that these bookshelvs do sound very good on reference material music, but older music, they just sound very tamed with little dynamics to it. Like if you hit up ACDC the bassdrum just sounds abit "lame", the guitars sounds quite abit meh aswell
(I can describe the guitar as the sound comes from a pair of audiophilespeakers rather than an actual guitar cabinet).
So I'd like something thats quite accurate but can deliver good punch in less bassheavy music like older mixed music without it being "bassy". (If thats even possible) Currently running the bookshelvs with a Hegel H90, also tried with h190 which is quiteabit beefier, however it's still lacks that presence.

The idea of the build was NOT to build myself a bass-monster, but rather get the definition in these critical mid bass area and midrange that makes music so much fun and engaging.
Like when you hear a cello you just get that presence of the full body of it, it pops the heck out delivering depth to the touch of the instrument.

Ive been messing with VituixCAD for quiteawhile now, however I have no previous experience at all building speakers. And with that lack of experience i do not know wether
I completely messed up anything very basic. I have never built a crossover but tought myself
the basics(from what I know in speaker-design and crossover design). Im more worried about the stuff that I don't currently know of which might be plenty.

My initial design goals:
  • Good horizontal off axis.
  • Fun engaging/dynamic and natural presence to instruments.
  • Can play orchestral music and bigger pieces without sounding "flat".
  • Reasonable easy to drive impedance and sensitivity wise.

My initial design:
  • Timealligned woofers tweeter.
  • 4way with a 6,5inch midbass coupler woofer.
  • 70-85litre cab(empty)


Current elements in the design…
  1. (TBD) Tweeter (1inch) Seas Excel E0011-06 T25CF002 Millenium -> https://www.hifikit.se/media/attachm..._datasheet.pdf
  2. High-mid (4,5inch) Scan-Speak Illuminator 12MU/8731T00 -> https://www.hifikit.se/media/attachm...mu-8731t00.pdf
  3. Mid-bass (6,5inch) Scan-Speak Revelator 18W/8531G00-> https://www.hifikit.se/media/attachm...8w-8531g00.pdf
  4. (TBD) Bass (8inch) Scan-Speak Revelator 22W/8851T00 -> https://www.hifikit.se/media/attachm...2w-8851t00.pdf


Currently I have two setups one more classic:

Setup1:
  • Tweeter 1inch
  • Upper mid woof 4,5inch
  • Midbass woof 6,5inch
  • bass woof 8inch +

Setup2:
  • Upper midwoof 4,5inch
  • Tweeter 1inch
  • Midbass woof 6,5inch
  • bass woof 8inch +

Ill attatch a picture or two of the basic ideas..(not 100% to scale..)

These two depends quiteabit on the height of the speaker, my thought on the latter was that the tweeter and the midwoofers would "theoretically"
be more aligned given that the seating position is in a more narrow sweetspot vertically(aka ears by the tweeter).. (my logic is that both woofers shares the same distance to the listeners ears since tweeter is in the middle yielding more precise phase)

Extra:
The idea was scan-speak drivers using their revelator series and ive simumlated in this example a seas millenium tweeter. While the woofers im pretty sure i like the combination (except maybe the "sub woof" which depends on exactly how large i make my cabsize)
the tweeter is abit work in progress aswell (might checkout the satori berylium tweeter).

The "easiest/working" simulation of a crossiver ive found so far was using 2nd orders using VituixCAD.
It currently has not baffle-step compensation to it, nor any simulations towards baffle-diffraction(so keep that in-mind).
The elements are 8ohm , but the speaker seems to act more of a 6ohm rated using this specific crossover due to some overlap which i deem as worthy sacrifice.

Ported or passive rad is yet to be decided..
Questions:
  1. Does anything of this make any sense?
  2. I recognize that the crossover due to baffle-diffraction and time alignment have to be remoddeled and tweaked extensivly after the fact, do you guys use in-room measurments for that? Like do you start with the manufacturs given ZMA FRD or do you start with your own measurments in-cab?
  3. The crossover i attatched is there anything wrong with it? or can i use that as a base?
Attached Images
File Type: png speaker2.PNG (84.1 KB, 491 views)
File Type: png Crossover 2nd orders.PNG (207.5 KB, 495 views)
File Type: png speker.PNG (125.8 KB, 493 views)
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th June 2020, 01:59 PM   #2
prairieboy is offline prairieboy  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
prairieboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
First time DIY - Reality check
Admire your initiative. The question is, which do you want more: new speakers for listening; or the challenge of designing? If the former, and based on your image, I'd suggest checking the Elsinore thread, or researching Troels Gravesen's various builds. If the latter, there are others far more knowledgeable than I to guide you. Either way, have fun.
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th June 2020, 02:23 PM   #3
giralfino is offline giralfino  Italy
diyAudio Member
 
giralfino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but the probability that you get something better that what you have now, for a first (and complex) design is near zero.
If you want to build a 3-way (*), search a design from a reputable designer, you'll have lot of things to get right on the build. If you want to start designing start with a 2-way and best use inexpensive drivers. If you go down this route you need to learn the art of compromises.

Ralf

(*) Your choice of drivers isn't logical. If your bass is a 8", make a 3-way and not a 4-way, with a 4-5" mid and a 0.75-1" tweeter
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th June 2020, 02:34 PM   #4
giralfino is offline giralfino  Italy
diyAudio Member
 
giralfino's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
About the crossover.
You need to simulate the baffle step effect and diffraction for all drivers, the cab effect for all drivers but the tweeter, and only then start designing the crossover. And I bet you didn't set the correct delay between the drivers. If all is done right you are in the ball park, but you need to measure anyway.
The zobels aren't strictly needed IMHO. Two coils in parallel don't make sense, use only one appropriately sized. Use standard values, you'll have a hard time to make an 8.36uF cap.

Ralf
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th June 2020, 02:42 PM   #5
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
diyAudio Moderator
 
AllenB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
First time DIY - Reality check
Quote:
Originally Posted by S4dp View Post
midbass presence.
Have you considered trying to eliminate baffle step acoustically? Small baffles and larger give different results.
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th June 2020, 02:46 PM   #6
Mike56 is offline Mike56
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by S4dp View Post
Hey guys, first time DIY here.
[/LIST]
I recently did my 3rd diy speaker using Troels Gravesens site, i thought i had read enough, but learnt more and more, i agree with the other poster, copy someone else's expertise shamelessly, there is so much to learn! others on here helped me lots as well. I reckon two weeks good reading first!
I built his Fusion Bad, didn't know when i started how much help the DSP on the bass would be, but it gave significant capability and improvement in my room when coached by folk on here!
__________________
PC, to Chordette GEM DAC or O.L. Aurora4 with Onyx arm Rega Ania to Graham Slee MC pre, to Prima Luna Prologue 1. Troels Gravesen Fusion BAD with Hypex 151's high level input
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th June 2020, 02:54 PM   #7
S4dp is offline S4dp
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Hi, thanks for the reply! I'd say the challange to actually design and fiddle with it until next centurary Ive been looking extensivly at Troels diffrent builds past weeks as u can see the first example with tweeter ontop is sortof a copy of his baffledesign on CNO GRANDE although mine being 4way instead of a 3,5way with the sole reason that im not quite sold on the 4ohm nominal as in his design, im not sure why i dislike 4ohm but i just do.. However nothing is set in stone. I havent seen Elsinores thread however.
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th June 2020, 03:18 PM   #8
S4dp is offline S4dp
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by giralfino View Post
I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but the probability that you get something better that what you have now, for a first (and complex) design is near zero.
If you want to build a 3-way (*), search a design from a reputable designer, you'll have lot of things to get right on the build. If you want to start designing start with a 2-way and best use inexpensive drivers. If you go down this route you need to learn the art of compromises.

Ralf

(*) Your choice of drivers isn't logical. If your bass is a 8", make a 3-way and not a 4-way, with a 4-5" mid and a 0.75-1" tweeter
Thanks for the reply! I hear you, my plan is for this to be a quite long lasting project. Ill think about making it a 3way if the 6,5inch in this case is more or less null in effect.
However, when it comes to the baffle diffraction, woulnt it be just the best to install everything inside a cab and make my own measurments and use those? Given volume of the cabs are correct to the tuning of the woofers. Ive done some bafflediffraction simulations and it looked quite good, but i just dont trust it 100% especially when timealigning the elements physically with the chamferd baffle.
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th June 2020, 03:21 PM   #9
S4dp is offline S4dp
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenB View Post
Have you considered trying to eliminate baffle step acoustically? Small baffles and larger give different results.
hi, Im quite aware of the bafflewidth's effect on the sound signature, I'm not sure that I can fit a Troels Poor Man's Strad in my livingroom
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th June 2020, 03:27 PM   #10
S4dp is offline S4dp
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2020
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike56 View Post
I recently did my 3rd diy speaker using Troels Gravesens site, i thought i had read enough, but learnt more and more, i agree with the other poster, copy someone else's expertise shamelessly, there is so much to learn! others on here helped me lots as well. I reckon two weeks good reading first!
I built his Fusion Bad, didn't know when i started how much help the DSP on the bass would be, but it gave significant capability and improvement in my room when coached by folk on here!
Hi! Fusion Bad surely looks pretty badass
  Reply With Quote

Reply


First time DIY - Reality checkHide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Reality Check or is it Possible? mortron Class D 3 13th June 2017 01:31 PM
first sub build reality check kcducttaper Subwoofers 18 3rd March 2015 11:48 PM
Reality Check DIY Tannoy RichardP Construction Tips 0 26th January 2014 10:25 PM
Reality Check jdlech Multi-Way 11 26th January 2008 05:55 AM
Reality check analog_sa Chip Amps 2 10th November 2003 09:30 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 11:44 AM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 14.29%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2020 diyAudio
Wiki