July 9, 2020: This thread is evolving from selecting a Woofer for my WHW DIY project (selection is now closed - I've ordered four Peerless/Vifa/Tymphany NE315w-04's - they should be here by End of July, early August 2020.
The next phase will be to build and test the optimal enclosure for the woofers, since calculations show that a small 48L / 1.8 cu.ft enclosure is all that is needed for a sealed cabinet with F3 near 45 hz.
The quality I'm missing from my current speakers is that visceral thump from the kick-drum or fast Low Frequency transients (between 50 and 150 hz). I'm hoping these drivers can deliver that, so I will be paying attention to the enclosure to minimize vibration via damping and CLD techniques. I am also following several threads on cabinet construction to understand those concepts a bit better.
June 29th, 2020: See posts #38 and #54 for Sealed/Vented Box alignments and FR performance comparisons My current bias is to go sealed, due to the cabinet size requirements.
June 24th 2020: I'm looking for 12" woofer recommendations in the $100 to $250 range (each) I'm evaluating these options: (I'll be using 2 per cabinet)
1) SB Acoustics SB34NRX75-6 12" Woofer
2) Peerless SLS 830669 - 12" Woofer - Coated Paper Cone
3) Peavey pro 12
4) Dayton Audio RSS315HF-4 12" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm
5) Eclipse, W1238R 12" woofer
6) Peerless by Tymphany NE315W-04 12" Paper Cone NE Woofer 4 Ohm
7) Goldwood GW-12PC-8 12" Heavy Duty Woofer 8 Ohm
I'll be building a WHW with the Horn in the center similar to The Raptor ... a 10" MTM. One difference is that I would probably turn the horn vertical so that the horizontal dispersion angle is 40d and vertical dispersion is 60d, and I'd like to go with 12" woofers to get more slam and low end extension. (not sure about sealed or vented yet)
I recently received two 18 Sound XT1464 horns antwo SB65WBAC25s full range drivers (similar what was used here: A Bookshelf Multi-Way Point-Source Horn but I have room for a larger box. I think I'll use MiniDSP 4x10HD as a crossover, eq, and phase correction.
My Living Room is 13' wide, 24' deep and 9' tall. I'm usually sitting about 12' from the speakers which are toed-in near the corners of one end of the room. I currently have 2 B&W 640i as the mains, which are probably bouncing sound off the walls, roof and floor like crazy. (though I use the receiver's Audyssey Curve Editor to get a flat FR at the listening position - confirmed by REW).
Thanks - Six - Minneapolis.
The next phase will be to build and test the optimal enclosure for the woofers, since calculations show that a small 48L / 1.8 cu.ft enclosure is all that is needed for a sealed cabinet with F3 near 45 hz.
The quality I'm missing from my current speakers is that visceral thump from the kick-drum or fast Low Frequency transients (between 50 and 150 hz). I'm hoping these drivers can deliver that, so I will be paying attention to the enclosure to minimize vibration via damping and CLD techniques. I am also following several threads on cabinet construction to understand those concepts a bit better.
June 29th, 2020: See posts #38 and #54 for Sealed/Vented Box alignments and FR performance comparisons My current bias is to go sealed, due to the cabinet size requirements.
June 24th 2020: I'm looking for 12" woofer recommendations in the $100 to $250 range (each) I'm evaluating these options: (I'll be using 2 per cabinet)
1) SB Acoustics SB34NRX75-6 12" Woofer
2) Peerless SLS 830669 - 12" Woofer - Coated Paper Cone
3) Peavey pro 12
4) Dayton Audio RSS315HF-4 12" Reference HF Subwoofer 4 Ohm
5) Eclipse, W1238R 12" woofer
6) Peerless by Tymphany NE315W-04 12" Paper Cone NE Woofer 4 Ohm
7) Goldwood GW-12PC-8 12" Heavy Duty Woofer 8 Ohm
I'll be building a WHW with the Horn in the center similar to The Raptor ... a 10" MTM. One difference is that I would probably turn the horn vertical so that the horizontal dispersion angle is 40d and vertical dispersion is 60d, and I'd like to go with 12" woofers to get more slam and low end extension. (not sure about sealed or vented yet)
I recently received two 18 Sound XT1464 horns antwo SB65WBAC25s full range drivers (similar what was used here: A Bookshelf Multi-Way Point-Source Horn but I have room for a larger box. I think I'll use MiniDSP 4x10HD as a crossover, eq, and phase correction.
My Living Room is 13' wide, 24' deep and 9' tall. I'm usually sitting about 12' from the speakers which are toed-in near the corners of one end of the room. I currently have 2 B&W 640i as the mains, which are probably bouncing sound off the walls, roof and floor like crazy. (though I use the receiver's Audyssey Curve Editor to get a flat FR at the listening position - confirmed by REW).
Thanks - Six - Minneapolis.
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I have the SB29NRX75-6 which is the smaller sibling to the SB34...you mention. It has plenty of punch and slam but the upper bass is not as refined as I would like. I am getting used to them though and will not trade up as I had originally considered. I am crossing to a Satori MR16P-4 AND MA Pluvia 7PHD BOTH at 300 Hz. These give me very good upper bass articulation and definition, etc. What X/O are you considering above the SB 34's? Also, would you wire these in parallel? I'm not sure how low the impedance would dip; could your amp handle 3 Ohms or lower? Perhaps there are some third party testing and evaluations that have a more precise impedance plot.??
Thanks! Upper bass/Lower mids are important from the woofers, since I'm hoping to match Bushmeister's build with a 650hz Harsch active crossover via MiniDSP. I will have 2 separate amps feeding 250 amps to each woofer and smaller amps for the tweeter/horn combo. They should all have no problem with low impedance loads at the volumes I play (80-85 db)
Six.
Six.
I used a Peerless 10 inch poly cone many years ago from their CC line. I did a 3-way tower with dual 10 in and dual 4 in and a Ti tweeter; X/O about 600 Hz and 6 KHz. These Peerless had very good upper bass but also hit very low and hard when the recording called for it. I have never heard the above Peerless model you have listed so take this as a grain of salt; can't really do a fair comparison here; just sharing past experiences
yep! The SB will take tons more power though for sure! If you don't need tons of power; maybe the Peerless would be a very good place to start...wallet friendly too! ha ha ...BUT, to be safe; if you do a vented box with low tuning like I often do; the SB would probably do a much better job. Not just in power but compare the X max; the SB is 22 mm p-p LINEAR where as the Peerless is only 8.3 mm p-p linear. I have my SB29... in a closed box; I am getting an in-room f3 about 37 Hz (NO EQ or bass boost; honest, deep, clean bass)! I chose the SB mostly because of the very low fs AND large X max.
Do you listen to large pipe organs like I do? I have a separate sub-woofer that is fairly flat in-room WITH the plate amp EQ, boost, etc. and goes all the way down to 14 Hz! Bass THIS deep requires a lot of X max and power both as a general rule (ESPECIALLY in a smaller, closed box). Having a larger x max does not immediately equate to more distortion but some woofers with lower fs, larger x-max, etc. are typically much less sensitive and usually have heavier cones so they can hold up to deeper, stronger bass. Maybe what you have read is referring to IM distortion? Strong, low frequency bass moves the woofer quite a bit but if it is also trying to do upper frequencies at the same time; the signals are "modulated"; too much of this makes the bass sound muddy or "grungy". Do you think this is what you read? A woofer that doesn't move as much air will have less of this IF it is not being pushed beyond it's normal, linear limits; but it won't do loud, deep bass all else being equal. Is this what you were thinking? Long answer....Short answer...How low do you want to go and loud do you want it to be???
Pro drivers are usually much more sensitive and can handle a lot more power but their fs is usually always MUCH higher than a woofer designed for HiFi home use. Lots of choices and lots of options for sure.
Pro drivers are usually much more sensitive and can handle a lot more power but their fs is usually always MUCH higher than a woofer designed for HiFi home use. Lots of choices and lots of options for sure.
Eclipse, W1238R - Meniscus Audio
Another possible candidate?
http://madisound.com/pdf/printcatalog/Eclipse.pdf
I think these were made by Eminence; they are supposed to be pretty good for the money; I have no experience with them at all. Call Meniscus; talk to Mark, ask him what he thinks. I think they have probably sold quite a few of these over many years?
Another possible candidate?
http://madisound.com/pdf/printcatalog/Eclipse.pdf
I think these were made by Eminence; they are supposed to be pretty good for the money; I have no experience with them at all. Call Meniscus; talk to Mark, ask him what he thinks. I think they have probably sold quite a few of these over many years?
I listen to a wide range of music, some pipe organ but most of the music I listen to is not super bass heavy... jazz, classical strings, most of the LF stuff I have is Pop music. I could always add 1 or 2 Subs to go below 35hz but I think I would prefer a 12" driver that can go flat between 60 and 700 hz. (With digital PEQ via MiniDSP). The Meniscus driver is interesting... I'll try to find an FR graph for it.
Thanks! Six.
Thanks! Six.
That Eclipse has been around for at least 15 (or more???) years; they may have to e mail the old spec sheets; Meniscus and Madisound both used to stock it; now only Meniscus to my knowledge. The SB will be the highest quality, best designed and best built BY FAR but the Peerless or Eclipse might be all you need. Even some of the Dayton drivers at Parts express might be a good choice. If you don't need to go lower than 40 Hz; I would then probably choose to go with a closed box; like I said, my SB29 is doing 37 Hz in room; that box is only 1.2 ft^3 (33 liters) closed!
https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/295-434--dayton-audio-ds315-8-specifications.pdf
Mostly good reviews; I don't always believe PE reviews; kind of hit and miss like Amazon reviews if you know what I mean. The specs and price seem to be a good possible match for your purposes. Again; I have NO experience at all with these. Years ago I bought the equivalent of these in the 8 inch size and they did amazingly well for the money FWIW...
Mostly good reviews; I don't always believe PE reviews; kind of hit and miss like Amazon reviews if you know what I mean. The specs and price seem to be a good possible match for your purposes. Again; I have NO experience at all with these. Years ago I bought the equivalent of these in the 8 inch size and they did amazingly well for the money FWIW...
HiFi Loudspeaker Design
This is handy; you can calculate closed box size for "optimum" then compare it with "custom"
This is handy; you can calculate closed box size for "optimum" then compare it with "custom"
HiFi Loudspeaker Design
this one calculates the 3 most often used vented or bass reflex boxes so you can compare size, tuning, etc.
this one calculates the 3 most often used vented or bass reflex boxes so you can compare size, tuning, etc.
These were originally discovered by me because they are links from the Madisound site. Some people argue these online calculators shouldn't be trusted. I trust THESE in particular. Then; what I normally do is go to 2 or 3 other sites and try their calculators for confirmation...Of course, there is always LDC by Dickason; I like doing hand calculations, using a pencil, graph paper, etc....WHY??? Simple really; dementia and alzheimers runs in my family on BOTH sides; I need to exercise my mid 60's brain daily!
With a little practice; I could once again design vacuum tube circuits with a slide rule!
Go ahead and try modeling the pro woofers also as an exercise; you will probably decide the f3 would end up being too high for home stereo use. BUT, if you are going the DSP route and do very precise and custom EQ's, maybe you could make a pro driver work for you. Look at FaitalPRO; Eminence and others (PE is a good place to start). Look specifically on the Eminence site for "bass guitar speakers". The Eminence site has a lot of very useful information EVEN if you don't buy or use their product.
Most Pro drivers for guitar, bass and PA are NOT very flat at all. They are designed for high sensitivity and high power handling mostly so they can take the abuse of loud rock and roll concert levels. High Fidelity is NOT their strong point. Having said that; there are some successful speaker designs out there that do use pro drivers...again, FWIW...
I'm not far behind you in years, and my mother had dementia as well so I appreciate the desire to exercise the mind. You bring up a good question: flat response/wide range/low f3/high sensitivity ... (pick 2?) it seems that in an effort to grab market share, brands are segmenting their offerings to meet niche demands... one woofer may work great in a ported 3-way, and another is aimed at the sealed, small box crowd. Many choices to sort through before getting a feel for what parameters suit a specific need. This may take some time...
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Well, ask yourself this first. Do you have a fixed budget? Are you flexible? Do you have an absolute maximum amount???
My SB I think is lower in sensitivity than the specs. indicate; I just ordered a new kick-*** amp; see my thread "3 1/2 way with sub..." for details. USUALLY, really low fs also usually means LOW sensitivity; not always true but in general that is the norm. If you want the best of what we have talked about so far; that would certainly be the SB. BUT; I really don't know about the mid and upper bass; especially since you want to cross above 600 Hz. If you aren't in a hurry; STUDY...rest, go back, repeat...try to find 3rd party testing, evaluations, reviews, etc.
Have you considered 10 inch instead of 12 inch? This would give you way more options plus the mid and upper bass performance would be better all else being equal..."mass is the enemy..."...
My SB I think is lower in sensitivity than the specs. indicate; I just ordered a new kick-*** amp; see my thread "3 1/2 way with sub..." for details. USUALLY, really low fs also usually means LOW sensitivity; not always true but in general that is the norm. If you want the best of what we have talked about so far; that would certainly be the SB. BUT; I really don't know about the mid and upper bass; especially since you want to cross above 600 Hz. If you aren't in a hurry; STUDY...rest, go back, repeat...try to find 3rd party testing, evaluations, reviews, etc.
Have you considered 10 inch instead of 12 inch? This would give you way more options plus the mid and upper bass performance would be better all else being equal..."mass is the enemy..."...
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