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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Woofer choice for WHW configuration
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Old 30th June 2020, 09:43 PM   #61
GM is offline GM  United States
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Originally Posted by Sixto View Post
Thanks GM!

Have you used these drivers?

like Oldspkrguy said, the price seems too good to be true!

Most of the comments on PE are about replacing existing woofers, which I imagine have pretty low XO's (below 600 or so).
You're welcome!

No.

With its conglomerate set of specs used up till now, allowing many parts to be made in humongous bulk, seems a good choice overall at a very cheap/'fair' consumer price.

No clue, got ~politely 'drummed' off the forum shortly after joining [though still a member last time I checked] for 'having a clue' WRT audio speaker/system design and not actively promoting all things P.E., though if its specs/response plot is reasonably accurate, then its technically max usable XO point is ~13543/12 = ~1129 Hz, i.e. 'setting' on the baffle/~160 deg [normally misnamed 180 deg/2 pi space] with any higher beginning to beam based on its design, which at the oft used ~90 deg = 1500-1600 Hz range depending on diaphragm profile, VC dia..

GM
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Old 30th June 2020, 10:06 PM   #62
GM is offline GM  United States
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Originally Posted by oldspkrguy View Post
The better designed drivers have many extra features that give them extra high performance over those much "cheaper" that make a lot of compromises and short cuts. At what point does this matter?
When inductance is insignificant [at least in its intended pass-band] and otherwise meet published specs < +/- 10%, making your earlier sims now accurate 'enough' assuming there's no significant series resistance to raise Qes/Qts.

Re box alignments, T/S theory peters out at the driver's upper mass corner, ending at its lower mass corner, i.e. Fs is the mean.

Fhm = 2*Fs/Qts'

Flc = Fs*Qts'/2

Qts' = Qts + any added series resistance [Rs]: HiFi Loudspeaker Design

GM
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Old 1st July 2020, 11:28 AM   #63
Sixto is offline Sixto  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GM View Post
Re box alignments, T/S theory peters out at the driver's upper mass corner, ending at its lower mass corner, i.e. Fs is the mean.

Fhm = 2*Fs/Qts'

Flc = Fs*Qts'/2

Qts' = Qts + any added series resistance [Rs]: HiFi Loudspeaker Design

GM
I appreciate and thank you for sharing, but I'm not technically savvy enough to understand the meaning of the formulas quoted above. Can you rephrase it in simpler terms? I followed the link but had no better luck understanding the intent...

Thanks! - Six.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 01:30 PM   #64
Sixto is offline Sixto  United States
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Originally Posted by GM View Post
When inductance is insignificant [at least in its intended pass-band] and otherwise meet published specs < +/- 10%, making your earlier sims now accurate 'enough' assuming there's no significant series resistance to raise Qes/Qts.
[/B]
GM
Ok, I did some research and found a whole thread about the meaning of "Q": (GM Quote) i So if I'm understanding correctly, a speaker with the proper Q-value (is that generally considered to be .707?) will have more accurate transients. We can't always get the Q we want in the enclosure we have, so the rest of the quote in my previous message appears to show how to raise Qts of a driver and its enclosure by adding series resistance to the signal. The reason for raising the Q would be to get more accurate transients than expected by the driver/enclosure combination alone. (an overdamped wave would not be loud or sharp enough, and an underdamped wave will be boomy)

Am I in the ballpark?

I still don't understand when induction is insignificant... I thought a driver's LE (voice coil inductance) is constant through it's frequency band, and in general, that lower LE's are related to reduced distortion.

Thanks - Six.
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Old 2nd July 2020, 01:58 PM   #65
oldspkrguy is offline oldspkrguy  United States
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Well, there are many different Q's. On the driver; there is

Qms

Qes

Qts

And, for closed box; there are other "Q's" and for vented box even different "Q's"

Take a look at this from the Eminence pro driver site:

Understanding Loudspeaker Data | Eminence Speaker

and more

HiFi Loudspeaker Design

and this...

HiFi Loudspeaker Design

HiFi Loudspeaker Design

Maybe you already knew some or most of this? Handy anyway...
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Old 2nd July 2020, 03:59 PM   #66
Sixto is offline Sixto  United States
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Thanks Oldspkrguy, I am generally familiar with the terms, but have not applied them to a specific build like what I'm planning now. It's becoming clearer how the Q of the driver affects whether a vented or sealed box is a better option. Also how big a box some of the vented drivers require!

I'm getting a better understanding that when I choose a specific driver, the size of the box will affect the overall Q of the assembly. (and also the size of the box is somewhat dependent on the Qts of the driver) I think GM is proposing a workaround: if a box can't be as big as the driver needs for optimal Q, then the Q can be raised electrically by adding a series resistor, providing optimal Q in a smaller box (though that seems like it would impact max volume at a given frequency too) Stuffing with sound insulation should also help that.

Final note: I've requested more information from various sources re: the 3 drivers I have narrowed it down to: Eclipse, Goldwood and Peerless/Tymphany. I'm beginning to sketch the speaker dimensions, and should have some CAD files soon. I'm moving forward with adapting the FR driver to the horn. There is progress, just slower than I wish it were.

Thanks! - Six.
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Old 3rd July 2020, 02:29 AM   #67
GM is offline GM  United States
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Originally Posted by Sixto View Post
Am I in the ballpark?

I still don't understand when induction is insignificant... I thought a driver's LE (voice coil inductance) is constant through it's frequency band, and in general, that lower LE's are related to reduced distortion.
A 0.707 Qtc' is a max flat alignment, i.e. F3 = Fb, so the default. 0.5 Qtc' = transient perfect, so the ideal with a Qtc' = 1.0 historically being the acceptable upper limit before' ringing' becomes increasingly audible.

The reason I normally add the Qts' or Qtc' note is that at the very least there will be some resistance in the speaker wiring, any passive filter that will raise Qts/Qtc, which online or otherwise calculators often don't account for, though admittedly it's not enough to matter [default = 0.5 ohm] if driven with a typical low output impedance amp [SS] + some form of DSP is used.

Plenty of newbie low DF tube amp owners have been 'caught out' though with excessive [seriously under damped] 'smiley face' EQ'd speaker systems.

Right, you raise Qt to 'fill up' a too large [over-damped] box to the desired Qtc if sealed or Qtb for vented.

Not its entire pass band per se as increasing Le reduces usable pass band.

Look at a driver's impedance curve and note how much quicker it rises with increasing inductance and how that affects frequency response Vs a sim done by a program that doesn't account for inductance.

Early on a lot of folks were really upset with their speaker's inferior performance that simmed 'flat as a billiard table' over a decade only to have a 'one note' boomer using a cheap high inductance [sub] woofer.

GM
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Old 3rd July 2020, 10:08 AM   #68
oldspkrguy is offline oldspkrguy  United States
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Originally Posted by Sixto View Post
Thanks Oldspkrguy, I am generally familiar with the terms, but have not applied them to a specific build like what I'm planning now. It's becoming clearer how the Q of the driver affects whether a vented or sealed box is a better option. Also how big a box some of the vented drivers require!

I'm getting a better understanding that when I choose a specific driver, the size of the box will affect the overall Q of the assembly. (and also the size of the box is somewhat dependent on the Qts of the driver) I think GM is proposing a workaround: if a box can't be as big as the driver needs for optimal Q, then the Q can be raised electrically by adding a series resistor, providing optimal Q in a smaller box (though that seems like it would impact max volume at a given frequency too) Stuffing with sound insulation should also help that.

Final note: I've requested more information from various sources re: the 3 drivers I have narrowed it down to: Eclipse, Goldwood and Peerless/Tymphany. I'm beginning to sketch the speaker dimensions, and should have some CAD files soon. I'm moving forward with adapting the FR driver to the horn. There is progress, just slower than I wish it were.

Thanks! - Six.

If you have been following my thread on 3 1/2 way...; I have been playing around quite a bit with my existing drivers; boxes; X/O, etc. I think the NE265 will do what I'm after but that is on temporary hold. So if you DO end up with the "Peerless" ( they keep changing names) before me; I'm very curious about what your listening impressions will be. I could use two each per side of the Satori 7 1/2 but only the 4 Ohm version. The calculators show only one 8 Ohm version for that box size. Of course; two each of the 7 1/2 4 Ohm would have to wired in series; this sort of defeats one of my goals for higher SPL. AND, four of these is getting way beyond my budget.

Audio Technology 10 inch is considered by some to be the world's best. If I had the funds; I would go for it...but then; there is the box size again...my project isn't getting any easier either!

Sandwich cone

Cheers!
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Old 4th July 2020, 08:01 PM   #69
Sixto is offline Sixto  United States
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Originally Posted by oldspkrguy View Post
I think the NE265 will do what I'm after but that is on temporary hold.
PM sent... Six
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Old 5th July 2020, 09:44 PM   #70
Sixto is offline Sixto  United States
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Originally Posted by oldspkrguy View Post
Peerless by Tymphany NE315W-08 12" Subwoofer Speaker

PE reviews of the 8 Ohm version. Still looking; I'd like to find something more trusting though than just PE reviews; sometimes they are not the most informed or experienced users or designers but it's start anyway...
Found Vance Dickason's review from July 2010's issue of Voice Coil... (Scroll down to P-7) Very interesting, looks like the driver does what it's advertised to do.

Last edited by Sixto; 5th July 2020 at 09:51 PM.
 

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