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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Woofer choice for WHW configuration
Woofer choice for WHW configuration
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Old 27th June 2020, 02:29 AM   #21
mayhem13 is offline mayhem13  United States
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Originally Posted by Sixto View Post
I'll be building a WHW with the Horn in the center similar to The Raptor ... a 10" MTM. One difference is that I would probably turn the horn vertical so that the horizontal dispersion angle is 40d and vertical dispersion is 60d, and I'd like to go with 12" woofers to get more slam and low end extension.
That’s gonna have a nasty forward lobe and null no matter how low you cross it.
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Old 27th June 2020, 03:05 AM   #22
Sixto is offline Sixto  United States
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Originally Posted by mayhem13 View Post
Thatís gonna have a nasty forward lobe and null no matter how low you cross it.
Do you have any thoughs of where I could model this (maybe visualize it) and find out for myself prior to building it?

I understand that a WTW configuration has some drawbacks, but my understanding is that at x-over the symmetrical woofers help reduce floor and ceiling reflections from the tweeter

I've read that the drawbacks are potentially the "revealing" nature of these types of speakers, but never that the lobes and nulls are a problem... Is it because I'm turning the horn vertical? Would that be the case even if the distance between woofer and tweeter will be less than 1/4 wavelength at X-over, which will be about 5.2" at 650 hz?

Thanks! - Six.
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Old 27th June 2020, 03:12 AM   #23
Sixto is offline Sixto  United States
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Originally Posted by oldspkrguy View Post
USUALLY, really low fs also usually means LOW sensitivity; not always true but in general that is the norm. ...

If you aren't in a hurry; STUDY...rest, go back, repeat...try to find 3rd party testing, evaluations, reviews, etc.

Have you considered 10 inch instead of 12 inch? This would give you way more options plus the mid and upper bass performance would be better all else being equal..."mass is the enemy..."...
I'd like to keep the price of each woofer closer to $100 than to $200, but if a $200 driver fits the bill perfectly, that would not be a deal breaker.

I do expect this will take me some time... to research, build, test, repeat...

10" are a possibility, but there are already so many choices in the 12" size, that I don't see the need to expand the search just yet, when I'm basically starting to look. So far, the 10" i've seen don't seem to provide a better SQ up to 1000 hz but they also don't go as low as the 12"...

Thanks again! - Six.
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Old 27th June 2020, 03:32 AM   #24
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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Woofer choice for WHW configuration
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldspkrguy View Post
the mid and upper bass performance would be better all else being equal..."mass is the enemy..."...
I'm not sure I see the problem here.
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Old 27th June 2020, 03:43 AM   #25
GM is offline GM  United States
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Originally Posted by oldspkrguy View Post
It was my standard woofer back in the '90s, great bang/buck! Last paid $63 @ Madisound, so an even better bargain today once inflation is factored in, though makes me wonder if actual specs are as close to published as back then.

GM
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Old 27th June 2020, 09:20 AM   #26
oldspkrguy is offline oldspkrguy  United States
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Originally Posted by GM View Post
It was my standard woofer back in the '90s, great bang/buck! Last paid $63 @ Madisound, so an even better bargain today once inflation is factored in, though makes me wonder if actual specs are as close to published as back then.

GM
I can't find the FR plots online anywhere; do you have an electronic copy?

It seems like I saw them years ago but they may have been when Madisound also stocked them.
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Old 27th June 2020, 09:53 AM   #27
oldspkrguy is offline oldspkrguy  United States
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Originally Posted by AllenB View Post
I'm not sure I see the problem here.
"mass is the enemy" is a quote from one of the pro speaker designers I meet years ago. He told me all else being equal; stick with the smallest diameter driver that will do the job for you for a better defined upper range but mostly for a quicker and more precise transient response. All else being equal is part of the clue. If you have a 10 inch that will do everything a 12 inch will do; the 10 inch "should" be able to follow the signal more accurately than a 12 inch. This isn't always the case obviously but some 12 inch woofers that reach down REALLY LOW have trouble once you get above a few hundred hertz. My SB 29 (should really be considered 11 inch) for example isn't giving me the mid and upper bass I was looking for but it does go very low in a small, closed box. I just ordered a new Crown pro amp to drive it because my Dayton APA 150 just is way under-powered here. I think the SB29 sensitivity is way lower than spec. or the Dayton power is way over stated. If I were to do it over again; I would go with the new SB Satori 9 1/2 inch woofers; not THAT much more expensive. They wouldn't go as deep (in my closed box) as the SB29 but the mid and upper bass would be WAY more precise. They have gotten really high praise in the few pieces I have seen written about them. I had also considered the ETON 11 inch, the newer Symphony II model. The specs show it usable up to about 1000 Hz where as the original was recommended for only up to 100 Hz. HUGE improvement! Anyway; once I get the new amp and finally get all the bugs worked out with my REW and M Audio measurements; I may STILL decide to sell the SB 29's and go for the Satoris!???

Long response I realize but it helps better explain my thought process.

Long live deep, powerful and "ACCURATE" bass!
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Old 27th June 2020, 10:03 AM   #28
oldspkrguy is offline oldspkrguy  United States
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https://www.eton-gmbh.com/fileadmin/...SymphonyII.pdf

new Eton 11 inch


http://sbacoustics.com/wp-content/up...B29NRX75-6.pdf

"my" SB 29


http://sbacoustics.com/wp-content/up...ri-WO24P-4.pdf

new Satori 4 Ohm version
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Old 27th June 2020, 11:08 AM   #29
oldspkrguy is offline oldspkrguy  United States
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Moving the speakers around it becomes immediately clear it's a bit bigger than most of my other 3-way classics. Heavy! So is the bass response from the 9Ĺ" bass driver. It goes deep.
What took the most time was the point of crossover between bass and mid. 400 Hz, 500 Hz, 600 Hz, etc. Starting at 400 Hz made the middle midrange a bit weak on vocals, lacking the fullness and warmth I wanted. Thus, gradually the point of crossover was moved upwards and ended at 580 Hz making the best blend of lower-mid and middle-mid. Lower-mid does take some membrane area to give the fullness of vocals and instruments. The distance to the floor becomes a factor here too in making the best bass-mid integration. I found 50 cm stands ideal, but try it out. It can have a significant impact on sound how high your midrange are above floor level.
What thrilled me the most was the seamless integration of upper-mid and treble from its 1. order crossover and the smooth - and utterly dynamic - presentation of e.g. cymbals and other instruments with high-frequency content. This speaker surely rivals the AT-3WC and also the PRELUDE speakers - and at a much lower price. Not since the PRELUDE had I done a 1st order crossover, but I remember what it did. And this all thanks to the MR13 midrange drivers, which is not necessarily flat, but smooth all the way to 14 kHz without any excessive dips or peaks. It takes equalisation, but only from an RC circuit across the series coil.
I sometimes have mails asking for a construction giving "dynamic deep bass, smooth and transparent midrange and silky treble". Well, we all want that. Only way to find out if we can have it is building loudspeakers. Enjoy!

ABOVE>>>An excerpt from "Troels" on a vented box 3-way he did with the new Satori 9 1/2 in.

Full discussion here:

SBA-941

He is using the 8 Ohm version...

If you did a vented box using two of the W024P-8 in parallel (per side obviously); you "might"??? get everything you are looking for...deep bass but also accurate mid and upper bass. WAY smaller than 12 inch I realize but this makes for a good argument re smaller vs bigger "all else being equal"... I don't have enough space in my listening room for large, stereo vented boxes which is another reason I chose the SB 29's. For the money and size; 37 Hz closed box is quite impressive; nothing "FAKE" or wimpy about the lower bass I'm getting now for sure. I do have separate subs for the 16 Hz to 32 Hz octave and they are also in a small, closed box but tucked away behind the TV cabinet in the corner so that was "wasted" floor space and doesn't intrude on the usable and visible small space I have to work with. I wanted stronger stereo bass from about 40 Hz and up. I was previously using a stereo pair of the Satori 6 inch woofer in small, vented boxes. Very good bass from 40 Hz to well past 800 Hz if wanted BUT; I felt I needed to move way more air and I already had the Satori 6 inch mids plus the Pluvia FR for anything above 300 Hz...(again, my logic and thought processes that got me to where I am currently)...
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Old 27th June 2020, 12:26 PM   #30
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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Woofer choice for WHW configuration
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldspkrguy View Post
"mass is the enemy" is a quote from one of the pro speaker designers
It seems that the designer was into horns. Direct radiators are a different matter. Their mass remains dominant and I don't see transient response being a problem.
 

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