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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

3"-75mm-apex diameter wave guide for SS 10FF
3"-75mm-apex diameter wave guide for SS 10FF
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Old 24th April 2020, 11:57 PM   #11
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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3"-75mm-apex diameter wave guide for SS 10FF
Yes, you can put the cone driver on a waveguide. It will be challenging to design to a high frequency and to a low frequency. You should look at how far you can take it.
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Old 25th April 2020, 12:17 AM   #12
diyiggy is offline diyiggy
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thanks AllenB,



How far with budget ... hummm, bad idea so, cause wanted it stays cheap... so a 3 way classic la Troel G. is more what I should look at... not funny !
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Old 25th April 2020, 02:00 AM   #13
wolf_teeth is offline wolf_teeth  United States
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To load low will take a large horn, more than a foot in diameter. To load upper mid to tweeter will place a boost right in the midband where you won't want it.

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Old 25th April 2020, 02:28 AM   #14
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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3"-75mm-apex diameter wave guide for SS 10FF
Quote:
Originally Posted by diyiggy View Post
How far with budget ... hummm, bad idea so, cause wanted it stays cheap... so a 3 way classic la Troel G. is more what I should look at... not funny !
Thanks for clearing this up. I always build my own horns and waveguides. It is difficult to find finished products that I could buy that will satisfy my needs.

If you want to buy, I suggest you collect links to all the larger horns you find in your research. We can speculate about how well they guide, load, and blend as well as their directivity.
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Old 25th April 2020, 10:37 AM   #15
diyiggy is offline diyiggy
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Hi,

@ AllenB, designing a horn indeed is asking knowledges few have + the extra knowledge and experience about crossovers...

I'm not aware about wave guide with a 3" aperture, but maybe a german site I discover yesterday but wood focussed more than acoustic science : Waveguide 28 | Galerien the guy behind seems to ask irrealistic prices for all his work. I know some cone horn from Beyma for 8" drivers for PA uses.

Then I saw some affordable products that could ask a little diy, i.e. a diy front chamber on the apex to adapt a 2.5" radiating cone on a 2" apex : Timpano Audio TPT-HL14-50 Slim 2" Aluminum Shallow Mount Horn 4-Bolt Only 3" deep WG

45 : PRV Audio WG 14-50CR 45 x 45 Aluminum Waveguide 2" 4 Bolt

@ wolf_teeth : thanks for thi input, I don't want an impossible challenge indeed. And when I look for instance here Wave guides & horns I can imagine it's not for a beginer as I am. And I have no idea about wave guide in mid and bafle step atenuation till a circa 750/800 XO (or less fhz XO as did XRK971 member but in a deep foam tratick).

Humm I beginn to say myself I had a bad idea with your input and AllenB's... If some brand like YG speakers that like to make expensive speakers with cnc wave-guide for tweeter and that can sell even more expensive stuffs with mid wave guide didn't make it, it's indeed it should be not feasible but complex work. Everyone is not Gedles or JBL with M2 horn design. Avanguard use a horn for the mid but the mid is more looking like a Morel dome than a cone driver...

And frankly I had in mind not something bigger than a 8" to 10" diameter WG for the little ScanSpeak mid unit... not a PA loudspeaker look.

The too much simple idea I had behind the mid WG was to give an extra gain to winn + 6 dB with a stereo pair and the overall diameter to marry it wirth a 15" PA driver for instance for the punch of it. Naive I am....

The simpliest is to double the SS 10F unit for a D'Apolitto, but cost will raise and other problems show their nose with this pattern...as a steefer Lr4 if my understanding is correct. Not my targett, wished somthing fun and cheap to break this boredomeness.

I really, really, really make a step forward active filtering with cheap class D thingy... but hey, all these bad sound cards & mini DSP sound for active filtering ! Good active filtering is expensive...

But when I see the centered bump given by such WG with each side deep curve it makes me dreaming of a filler mid unit between a bass and a treble unit.

Last edited by diyiggy; 25th April 2020 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 25th April 2020, 02:23 PM   #16
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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3"-75mm-apex diameter wave guide for SS 10FF
Quote:
that could ask a little diy, i.e. a diy front chamber on the apex
This is how I started in waveguides. One thing you will want to consider is extending the higher frequencies. If your driver has a cone larger than 2" then this might be helpful with a 2" throat.

The latter two waveguides you show are 6". I am inclined to guess they will radiate wide at 700Hz. This might be similar to the 8" at that frequency. It would be interesting to see a beamwidth plot.

The last one in particular seems to start narrow but end small. If you want a waveguide to hold its directivity lower for a given size it shouldn't try too hard at the start.
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Old 25th April 2020, 03:36 PM   #17
diyiggy is offline diyiggy
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I droped a mail on the Timpatino WG from PRV to know if they have a datasheet. but I surmise with an extra 0.5 cone distance to the throat with a diy adaptator I could not get better than a 1400 hz minimum usefull range with this WG... but I don't know really, I made a fast input on an on line calculator.


Diameter of this WG for car is around 3" deep and around 8" diameter... which ruins the idea of a tweeter because the CNC too much increased perhaps ? And it's deep enough to call it a horn !



Emissive Sd of the SS 10F is 2.5". Are you please aware about a front chamber volume/diameter calculator ? Hornresp maybe ?


Scan-Speak 10F/8424G00 Discovery 4" Midrange in 8 ohm
The Discovery series is designed for the discerning audiophile customer. To meet the needs of this audience, several new technologies were developed with the goal of lowering distortion and damping in the speaker. The coated fiberglass cone reduces vibration and standing waves, and the vented motor system minimizes power compression. The combined result is a very open and dynamic sound. With this curve you could even consider this as a full range.
  • Very wide Frequency Range
  • Coated NRSC Fibre Glass Cone (patent)
  • Compact Size
  • Neodymium magnet
  • Aluminum Chassis
  • High Sensitivity 87dB / 2,83V
  • SBR Rubber Surround
  • Copper Cap on Pole Piece
Madisound recommends:
  • In a 1.2 liter sealed box your F3 is 208Hz
  • In 1.5 liters vented box with a 1" diameter vent by 3" long your F3 is 105Hz
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Old 26th April 2020, 10:54 AM   #18
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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3"-75mm-apex diameter wave guide for SS 10FF
Quote:
Originally Posted by diyiggy View Post
with an extra 0.5 cone distance to the throat with a diy adaptator I could not get better than a 1400 hz minimum usefull range with this WG.
How did you do this, do you have a link to the calculator?
Quote:
front chamber volume/diameter calculator ? Hornresp maybe ?
Do you think it is a good idea to have a front volume with this waveguide?
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Old 26th April 2020, 01:17 PM   #19
Joseph Crowe is offline Joseph Crowe  Canada
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I can fully vouch for the 10F/8424 in a front horn. It sounds extremely good and drastically alters every sound quality aspect for this particular driver...it sounds like a completely different driver. I would suggest adding only a 3mm spacer ring in front of the driver for the front volume. I would also suggest making the throat a vertical slot that's 43mm wide. The vertical slot height can be up to 76mm high. By limiting the horizontal width of the throat you can achieve much wider horizontal off axis coverage than with it just direct radiating. Off axis becomes similar to a 25mm dome tweeter. You can use this driver up to 20kHz in a good horn but you need to apply some EQ either with a passive contour network or DSP. The rear chamber should be ported with a tuning frequency just below the Fc (cuttoff) of the horn. This will control diaphragm movement near the system FS which reduces distortion by 50% and improves power handling by a factor of 2. I would suggest a rectangular horn mouth but make sure the top/bottom throat walls are no closer to 14 degrees from being parallel, otherwise reflections occur in the throat. I hope this helps!
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Old 26th April 2020, 03:39 PM   #20
diyiggy is offline diyiggy
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Thank you so much JosephCrow for visiting this thread... your Urusshi/TAD horns make me dream !

Have to say I have the "worse" of the two 10F cause it's the 8 ohms that is a little less flat because its step break up towars 1500/2000 (but relativly flat said an american fellow here when bafled). thanks for sharing your horn experience with this driver. A lot of tips here ... I have to read it twice not to miss something.

@ AllenB, I just played with the mh-audio.nl : back loaded expoential horn calculator to have an wide idea... The Timpatino looks like more a simple conical thingy..

About your second question : I absolutly don't know, the only experience I have with horn was to listen to some at enthusiasts' houses.

But here as the rubber surround is taller than the ScanSpeak front plate, if no 3" throat then it ask a gasket for a 2" throat horn that you talked about for a treble curve frequency increase. I called the space between the bigger cone and the littlier 2" throat a "front chamber", "front load chamber", maybe it's not the good word for it? I surmise it plays like an aperiodic load sort of but dunno! But did you mean instead that the Timpatino is not a good idea at all both for the SS 10F & a "front chamber"?


I have maybe an unenderstanding about the max spl the SS 10F 8 ohms version could play at Xmax ? I believe it's 105 dB Xmax so 108 with two - 6db if the speaker is 2 meters from the listening position... 102 dB may be short for some transcients... hence the naive idea to winn few dB with a wave guide for a cheap project.



Didn't find on shelves a 3" throat obloid sphrerical wave guide nore a cheap 3" throat horn for this... But Joseph Crowe and Xrk971, I'm not aware of anybody doing it... even though those 2.5 to 3" Sd cones with full range behavior looks like on the paper a hifi candidat swap of the professional compresion driver for hifists..... I mean something smaller than the huge mid horn from Avantguarde. But wolf_teeth alert and Joseph Crowe testimonial like your's look it's too touchy for a beginner and cheap project. Thanks to alarm me if you think such purchase on shelf is a waste of monney btw .

Last edited by diyiggy; 26th April 2020 at 03:42 PM.
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