There's a TV room in the place I live and the sound coming from the TV is just dreadful. I've floated the idea of adding speakers as a summer project. I've tons of amps around and a small dsp based one (4x 50W@4r) I could use.
I've attached a quick sketch of the space I'm dealing with. It has to stay as is, in terms of positions (I can change the TV furniture though). The problem is the very wide seating with little depth to play with.
Criteria:
- will be used mostly for TV, sometimes for music.
- it has to be relatively cheap.
- no need for high volume levels nor deep bass, for the sanity of the people living just upstairs. Intelligibility is key.
- I've a pair of vintage 12" fullrange I could use as midbass but they will beam early I'm afraid.
If you have any suggestions or ideas, shoot away. Thanks in advance
I've attached a quick sketch of the space I'm dealing with. It has to stay as is, in terms of positions (I can change the TV furniture though). The problem is the very wide seating with little depth to play with.
Criteria:
- will be used mostly for TV, sometimes for music.
- it has to be relatively cheap.
- no need for high volume levels nor deep bass, for the sanity of the people living just upstairs. Intelligibility is key.
- I've a pair of vintage 12" fullrange I could use as midbass but they will beam early I'm afraid.
If you have any suggestions or ideas, shoot away. Thanks in advance
Attachments
Quite honestly, in a room like that I would go with plain stereo, positioning two channels in the traditional flanking positions beside the TV set.
If you keep the speakers relatively close together (more so than convention would suggest), the sweet spot will be enlarged but you will lose some stereo separation on music. That decision would depend on your priorities.
Alternatively if you want to go multi-channel, you might consider two front channels in stereo with 2 more stereo satellites behind the seating for some "fill" in the room. These setups can be tricky and speaker positioning can be a problem but I've seen it done a few times with great success.
If you are planning to DIY your speakers consider medium sized towers for the fronts and stand mounts for the rears.
If you keep the speakers relatively close together (more so than convention would suggest), the sweet spot will be enlarged but you will lose some stereo separation on music. That decision would depend on your priorities.
Alternatively if you want to go multi-channel, you might consider two front channels in stereo with 2 more stereo satellites behind the seating for some "fill" in the room. These setups can be tricky and speaker positioning can be a problem but I've seen it done a few times with great success.
If you are planning to DIY your speakers consider medium sized towers for the fronts and stand mounts for the rears.
Good suggestion Allen...
A sort of extreme toe in could be used. Aim the left speaker at the second seat from the left and the left speaker at the second seat from the right. This would make up for some of the level difference they would experience and it might actually make a fairly wide sweet spot.
Toeing them out, would likely have the effect of masking the far speaker from each side... i.e. the person on the left would not hear the right speaker except for sounds totally unique to that speaker... and vice versa.
At the very least it would be a fun experiment....
A sort of extreme toe in could be used. Aim the left speaker at the second seat from the left and the left speaker at the second seat from the right. This would make up for some of the level difference they would experience and it might actually make a fairly wide sweet spot.
Toeing them out, would likely have the effect of masking the far speaker from each side... i.e. the person on the left would not hear the right speaker except for sounds totally unique to that speaker... and vice versa.
At the very least it would be a fun experiment....
Thanks all for the comments "Toed-in" small columns is certainly something I can try.
Right now, what I'm thinking about is a pair of small 5" per column, in a WTW configuration (peerless P830656 with dx25tg ?), with active crossover and EQ. Does it sound reasonable ?
3.0 is appealing but can a center channel be synthesized from 2.0 or do I need a surround source ?
"Toed-in" small columns is certainly something I can try.Yes, the idea is to diy. It might get more expensive than getting used speakers but where's the fun in that ?
Right now, what I'm thinking about is a pair of small 5" per column, in a WTW configuration (peerless P830656 with dx25tg ?), with active crossover and EQ. Does it sound reasonable ?
3.0 is appealing but can a center channel be synthesized from 2.0 or do I need a surround source ?
Thanks all for the comments
My bad ... I made a typo in my first description of "extreme toe-in"... you need to point the left speaker at the second seat on the right and right speaker at the second seat on the left... per your drawing.
Yes, the idea is to diy. It might get more expensive than getting used speakers but where's the fun in that ?
Well, if you have a hard limit on your budget you could try modifying a pair of inexpensive pre-builts to get better sound from them.
Of late I've been messing about with a pair of the Dayton Audio T652 towers with a nice metal tweeter and a pair of 6.5" woofers in them.
What I did was to put a pair of These Crossovers in them, add some polyfill, rewire them with 18ga wire and replace the spring clips with banana plugs.
The thumbnail shows the result in my listening area.
It sounds ok ... I think we'd need to peek at your plans to give you a good answer, though.
Yes you can get a centre channel from stereo and it's remarkably easy to do. Three resistors... But you will need a 3 channel amplifier and, of course, another speaker.
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This unit is good and only $15ca - I have 2 of them. External Sound Card USB 7 Channel 5.1 External Audio Music Sound Card Soundcard For Laptop PC with Driver CD + USB Cabler|Sound Cards| | - AliExpress
Below is a Snip of one of the several screens, there is many features/controls. There's youtube videos on this device - The blue version looks the same but comes with a different driver.. It's USB powered and all settings are made with laptop connected, but I have not used it yet with laptop disconnected and with a USB power adapted connected. I don't normally have it connected for stereo only listening. I'm thinking about making a switch box for quick and easy bypass..
I imagine you receive 5.1 surround with most your TV programs.
Below is a Snip of one of the several screens, there is many features/controls. There's youtube videos on this device - The blue version looks the same but comes with a different driver.. It's USB powered and all settings are made with laptop connected, but I have not used it yet with laptop disconnected and with a USB power adapted connected. I don't normally have it connected for stereo only listening. I'm thinking about making a switch box for quick and easy bypass..
I imagine you receive 5.1 surround with most your TV programs.
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Thanks again for the suggestions.
Here is more exactly what I had in mind.
Thin column, 1.3m high, 18cm wide, 24cm deep, for an internal volume of about 33l. Bottom firing port tuned around 30hz (50mm diam, 19cm length). This gives me the attached response.
The tweeter would be at 1m height, the woofers above and below. Center to center, tweeter to woofer would be 12cm (due to the truncated frame). Active LR4 crossover at 1.8khz.
They will go quite close to the wall, not sure much BSC will be needed ?
@ Douglas: yes, that what I assumed you meant by extreme toe in.
Here is more exactly what I had in mind.
Thin column, 1.3m high, 18cm wide, 24cm deep, for an internal volume of about 33l. Bottom firing port tuned around 30hz (50mm diam, 19cm length). This gives me the attached response.
The tweeter would be at 1m height, the woofers above and below. Center to center, tweeter to woofer would be 12cm (due to the truncated frame). Active LR4 crossover at 1.8khz.
They will go quite close to the wall, not sure much BSC will be needed ?
@ Douglas: yes, that what I assumed you meant by extreme toe in.
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Don't buy the device I mentioned. For proper decoding I'm going with a stand alone decoder for Dolby Digital..
From what I understand from your:
1) stated goals
2) room layout
3) tons of amps, and a small dsp based (4x 50W@4r)
Three driver configurations seem worth further review.
1 ==== cabinet like Troels Galvansen SBA 16 MTM
_BiAmp two way MTM using 6.2" midbass with a husky 1.1" tweeter.
_A tall floor standing ported cabinet with the tweeter at ear level, 8.4" = 215mm wide cabinet
_NOTE: the crossover circuit (LR2, LR4, BW3) changes the vertical polar response
_6.2" SB17MFC35-8 (polyplastic cone produces a smooth tone)
_6.2" SB17NAC35-8 (aluminum cone produces a crisp tone, ribbed cone moves breakup to 4kHz)
_1.1" SB29RDC-C000__4 (dimpled dome tweeter)
2 ===Bi-Amp===passive TM crossover + active bi-amp
__3-way using 21mm dome tweeter plus 5" midrange plus 8" woofer
3 ==Bi-Amp====passive TM crossover + active bi-amp
__3-way using 26mm dome tweeter plus 6.2" midrange plus two 8" woofers
1) stated goals
2) room layout
3) tons of amps, and a small dsp based (4x 50W@4r)
Three driver configurations seem worth further review.
1 ==== cabinet like Troels Galvansen SBA 16 MTM
_BiAmp two way MTM using 6.2" midbass with a husky 1.1" tweeter.
_A tall floor standing ported cabinet with the tweeter at ear level, 8.4" = 215mm wide cabinet
_NOTE: the crossover circuit (LR2, LR4, BW3) changes the vertical polar response
_6.2" SB17MFC35-8 (polyplastic cone produces a smooth tone)
_6.2" SB17NAC35-8 (aluminum cone produces a crisp tone, ribbed cone moves breakup to 4kHz)
_1.1" SB29RDC-C000__4 (dimpled dome tweeter)
2 ===Bi-Amp===passive TM crossover + active bi-amp
__3-way using 21mm dome tweeter plus 5" midrange plus 8" woofer
3 ==Bi-Amp====passive TM crossover + active bi-amp
__3-way using 26mm dome tweeter plus 6.2" midrange plus two 8" woofers
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Thanks for the proposals. I'm afraid proper 3 ways will quickly get out of control, price wise.
The first option is however very close to what I had in mind. You're right that 6.5" drivers will be more efficient than 5" ones with a weaker amp. To keep price in check (and keep in line with the "good enough" vibe of this project), I'll probably sub the SB drivers by peerless dx25tg/sds-p830657.
The first option is however very close to what I had in mind. You're right that 6.5" drivers will be more efficient than 5" ones with a weaker amp. To keep price in check (and keep in line with the "good enough" vibe of this project), I'll probably sub the SB drivers by peerless dx25tg/sds-p830657.
With your budget, the greatest listening enjoyment will come from a very good TM 2-way using only your 2x4 DSP amp, BUT you should include a plan to easily add deeper bass with new money or a new home. Building a great cabinet is the greatest challenge.
MY PITCH: Build one cabinet now which is designed for future bass expansion. Use the 11" = 28cm wide cabinets as furniture tables, since your room is wide enough.
1) Build a TM 2-way T(SB26STCN-4 1" dome with small faceplate ) + M(SB17NAC35-4 6.2" aluminum cone midbass) in a ported -F3 = 35Hz which your 2x4 DSP_amp can drive. Center of tweeter = 36" - 39" height. An MTM design is more expensive and could produce lobing to deal with.
2) Design and construct this 11" = 28cm wide, 3.5cuft volume cabinet to easily add two ported W(SB23NAC45-8 8" aluminum cone woofers with new money or a new home.
====
Fs=31Hz, SB_Acoustics SB17NAC35-4 6.2" Aluminum cone midwoofer
Fs=45Hz, Peerless by Tymphany 830657 6-1/2" Paper Cone SDS Woofer
12Hz lower -F3 bass for this ported SB_Acoustics midwoofer compared to the Peerless by Tymphany 830657
====
Building a great cabinet is the greatest challenge. Only the top bevels are critical to reduce baffle distortion
MY PITCH: Build one cabinet now which is designed for future bass expansion. Use the 11" = 28cm wide cabinets as furniture tables, since your room is wide enough.
1) Build a TM 2-way T(SB26STCN-4 1" dome with small faceplate ) + M(SB17NAC35-4 6.2" aluminum cone midbass) in a ported -F3 = 35Hz which your 2x4 DSP_amp can drive. Center of tweeter = 36" - 39" height. An MTM design is more expensive and could produce lobing to deal with.
2) Design and construct this 11" = 28cm wide, 3.5cuft volume cabinet to easily add two ported W(SB23NAC45-8 8" aluminum cone woofers with new money or a new home.
====
Fs=31Hz, SB_Acoustics SB17NAC35-4 6.2" Aluminum cone midwoofer
Fs=45Hz, Peerless by Tymphany 830657 6-1/2" Paper Cone SDS Woofer
12Hz lower -F3 bass for this ported SB_Acoustics midwoofer compared to the Peerless by Tymphany 830657
====
Building a great cabinet is the greatest challenge. Only the top bevels are critical to reduce baffle distortion
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MTM crossovers:
1) Early publications on the "D'Appolito" configuration recommended building a third order BW3/BW3 crossover circuit. Wide, but wavey, vertical polar pattern and a modest power drop around the crossover frequency.
2) Later HT "couch optimized seating" recommend the second order LR2/LR2 crossover circuit because it produced a narrower focused center lobe ideal for the family couch, and a modest power drop around the crossover frequency. Troels MTM uses LR2/LR2 crossover circuits === HT "couch optimized seating"
3) Today D'Appolito uses a fourth order LR4/LR4 circit because with HT "couch optimized seating" it produces a smaller center lobe and maintains a flat SPL around the crossover frequency to the couch listeners.
1) Early publications on the "D'Appolito" configuration recommended building a third order BW3/BW3 crossover circuit. Wide, but wavey, vertical polar pattern and a modest power drop around the crossover frequency.
2) Later HT "couch optimized seating" recommend the second order LR2/LR2 crossover circuit because it produced a narrower focused center lobe ideal for the family couch, and a modest power drop around the crossover frequency. Troels MTM uses LR2/LR2 crossover circuits === HT "couch optimized seating"
3) Today D'Appolito uses a fourth order LR4/LR4 circit because with HT "couch optimized seating" it produces a smaller center lobe and maintains a flat SPL around the crossover frequency to the couch listeners.
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